Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown?

Moderators: penbeast0, trex_8063, PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier

Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown?

Kyle Kuzma and Brandon Ingram
38
21%
Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown
140
79%
 
Total votes: 178

PierceFan4ever
RealGM
Posts: 32,664
And1: 37,978
Joined: Dec 17, 2011

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#61 » by PierceFan4ever » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:56 pm

levon wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:
levon wrote:People are seeing Giannis with Ingram, not Durant. I personally think he's gonna follow more of a Paul George growth trajectory, but like a way hungrier and physically advantaged Paul George. He's already ahead of the curve in that respect. Tatum has been unbelievable. I do think that if their teams were switched though, Tatum would be far less amazing.


Tatum is being held back by the Celtics. Give him 13 attempts instead of the 9 he's getting right now in Boston and he would be averaging close to 20. His efficiency obviously wouldn't be this high which are in record numbers currently but he's a better pure scorer than Ingram right now and defensively.

There was already a discussion a few weeks ago about how Tatum's efficiency is tied to the amount of shots he's getting, and how Stevens teased out the optimum % to attempts ratio for him. I agree he'd average more PPG, that's kind of trivial. I'm just saying watch how Ingram is tasked with scoring, it's in the more "conventional" ISO setting. They don't run a lot of off-ball actions for him, and he's getting some tunnel vision.

Tatum in that role would look much closer statistically to Ingram imo with slightly higher efficiency, but not like historic efficiency for a rookie like he has now. On the other hand, BI isn't the shooter Tatum is yet, but he'd look way more efficient in Stevens' organized system.


Well Tatum has the ability to score on isolation, he was good at it in college and the 3 point shot was his weakness coming into the draft. Kind of the opposite with that right now. Brad even mentioned that he didn't want too much of Tatum taking two's instead to focus more on threes. Stevens doesn't run a whole lot of isolation plays aside from Kyrie when the original play is broken up. Ingram would need to improve his 3 point shooting in Steven's offense whether he would or not nobody knows but right now 31% is pretty low.
User avatar
Goudelock
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,286
And1: 20,864
Joined: Jan 27, 2015
Location: College of Charleston
 

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#62 » by Goudelock » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:18 pm

This thread belongs on the PC Board.
Devin Booker wrote:Bro.
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 19,848
And1: 25,243
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#63 » by Clyde Frazier » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:45 pm

Not surprised by Brown/Tatum being ahead in the poll, but am surprised that it's such a large gap.
RingsDontLie
Veteran
Posts: 2,670
And1: 1,359
Joined: May 11, 2015

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#64 » by RingsDontLie » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:36 am

PierceFan4ever wrote:Yeah I'm not sure where this Ingram having a higher ceiling than Tatum is coming from considering Tatum is better than him right now as a rookie and being younger. Unless you really think Ingram is somehow going to turn into Durant then I don't see how his ceiling is higher. Ingram is still a poor free throw and 3 point shooter but his slashing game has improved; better job at getting to the line. Tatum is already an elite shooter and he still has a lot of room to grow physically and skill wise.


My goodness, even with Kuzma as the only challenging rookie to Simmons...people are rating Tatum higher. If we are talking now, Kuzma is the better player than Tatum or Brown. If we are talking now, Ingram is the better player than Tatum or Brown.

Kuzma, in his rookie season is averaging more points than Jaylen Brown in his 2nd season.

The board fails to realize is that Ingram has more responsibility than Tatum or Jaylen. He's not playing alongside an MVP candidate like Kyrie that can take the pressure off of him and find him more looks...he's playing alongside a rookie guard Lonzo Ball, whose still figuring things out.

The Lakers is Ingram's team now, and he is the points leader, and go to guy, so he is playing with the added pressure of being a team leader. He just sunk a game winner against Philly to boot. That shows you the confidence growth. I can't see Jaylen carrying a team offensively and going head to head with Kevin Durant like Ingram was able to do:



Jaylen might be able to have a good game on occassion, but not over a long period, because he's just not that talented as Ingram.

I actually like Tatum and his skillset. It's comparable to that of a rookie Kobe...just very fluid..good looking shot, etc. I haven't watched him much, but you don't need to see much to know he is very talented. I think Tatum is the only real young talent that can challenge Ingram eventually in this poll. But Ingram simply has the length advantage even if Tatum becomes as special, so you have take Ingram.
celtics543
Analyst
Posts: 3,125
And1: 3,078
Joined: Dec 29, 2004
       

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#65 » by celtics543 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:02 pm

RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:Yeah I'm not sure where this Ingram having a higher ceiling than Tatum is coming from considering Tatum is better than him right now as a rookie and being younger. Unless you really think Ingram is somehow going to turn into Durant then I don't see how his ceiling is higher. Ingram is still a poor free throw and 3 point shooter but his slashing game has improved; better job at getting to the line. Tatum is already an elite shooter and he still has a lot of room to grow physically and skill wise.


My goodness, even with Kuzma as the only challenging rookie to Simmons...people are rating Tatum higher. If we are talking now, Kuzma is the better player than Tatum or Brown. If we are talking now, Ingram is the better player than Tatum or Brown.

Kuzma, in his rookie season is averaging more points than Jaylen Brown in his 2nd season.

The board fails to realize is that Ingram has more responsibility than Tatum or Jaylen. He's not playing alongside an MVP candidate like Kyrie that can take the pressure off of him and find him more looks...he's playing alongside a rookie guard Lonzo Ball, whose still figuring things out.

The Lakers is Ingram's team now, and he is the points leader, and go to guy, so he is playing with the added pressure of being a team leader. He just sunk a game winner against Philly to boot. That shows you the confidence growth. I can't see Jaylen carrying a team offensively and going head to head with Kevin Durant like Ingram was able to do:



Jaylen might be able to have a good game on occassion, but not over a long period, because he's just not that talented as Ingram.

I actually like Tatum and his skillset. It's comparable to that of a rookie Kobe...just very fluid..good looking shot, etc. I haven't watched him much, but you don't need to see much to know he is very talented. I think Tatum is the only real young talent that can challenge Ingram eventually in this poll. But Ingram simply has the length advantage even if Tatum becomes as special, so you have take Ingram.


The Lakers are 10-15....you don't think if Tatum and Brown were on that team they would be putting up huge stats? Tatum and Brown are starters on a team that's 23-5 and are putting up pretty good stats themselves. Let's also not forget that Tatum is a year younger than Ingram and 3 years younger than Kuzma. Jaylen is a year younger than Kuzma and only a year older than Ingram. I'll take the two guys who are growing with a good team and putting up nice efficient stats over the guys leading LA to the 12 seed in the West.

Basically I'd take Tatum over Ingram now and in the future and I'd take Brown over Kuzma now and in the future.
RingsDontLie
Veteran
Posts: 2,670
And1: 1,359
Joined: May 11, 2015

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#66 » by RingsDontLie » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:26 pm

celtics543 wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:Yeah I'm not sure where this Ingram having a higher ceiling than Tatum is coming from considering Tatum is better than him right now as a rookie and being younger. Unless you really think Ingram is somehow going to turn into Durant then I don't see how his ceiling is higher. Ingram is still a poor free throw and 3 point shooter but his slashing game has improved; better job at getting to the line. Tatum is already an elite shooter and he still has a lot of room to grow physically and skill wise.


My goodness, even with Kuzma as the only challenging rookie to Simmons...people are rating Tatum higher. If we are talking now, Kuzma is the better player than Tatum or Brown. If we are talking now, Ingram is the better player than Tatum or Brown.

Kuzma, in his rookie season is averaging more points than Jaylen Brown in his 2nd season.

The board fails to realize is that Ingram has more responsibility than Tatum or Jaylen. He's not playing alongside an MVP candidate like Kyrie that can take the pressure off of him and find him more looks...he's playing alongside a rookie guard Lonzo Ball, whose still figuring things out.

The Lakers is Ingram's team now, and he is the points leader, and go to guy, so he is playing with the added pressure of being a team leader. He just sunk a game winner against Philly to boot. That shows you the confidence growth. I can't see Jaylen carrying a team offensively and going head to head with Kevin Durant like Ingram was able to do:



Jaylen might be able to have a good game on occassion, but not over a long period, because he's just not that talented as Ingram.

I actually like Tatum and his skillset. It's comparable to that of a rookie Kobe...just very fluid..good looking shot, etc. I haven't watched him much, but you don't need to see much to know he is very talented. I think Tatum is the only real young talent that can challenge Ingram eventually in this poll. But Ingram simply has the length advantage even if Tatum becomes as special, so you have take Ingram.


The Lakers are 10-15....you don't think if Tatum and Brown were on that team they would be putting up huge stats? Tatum and Brown are starters on a team that's 23-5 and are putting up pretty good stats themselves. Let's also not forget that Tatum is a year younger than Ingram and 3 years younger than Kuzma. Jaylen is a year younger than Kuzma and only a year older than Ingram. I'll take the two guys who are growing with a good team and putting up nice efficient stats over the guys leading LA to the 12 seed in the West.

Basically I'd take Tatum over Ingram now and in the future and I'd take Brown over Kuzma now and in the future.


I think you are not taking the physical advantages Ingram has over Tatum. Ingram’s length makes the game that much easier. Someone said Ingram is only 6 months older than Tatum. If true they are essentially the same age.

They both played the same position...SF...but whenever Tatum guarded Ingram when they played against each other it was a big mismatch in Ingram’s favor. But on the other hand Ingram could lock down Tatum or at least make it very difficult on him. You had to put Brown on Ingram. I’m seeing Ingram drawing double teams already. I’d say Ingram is more impactful than Tatum on offense or defense.

What Tatum’s advantage over Ingram right now is his shooting ability. That’s still something Ingram can eventually match, but Tatum will never match Ingram’s size and length.
r0drig0lac
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,583
And1: 5,243
Joined: Dec 24, 2015
 

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#67 » by r0drig0lac » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:42 pm

1- Ingram
2- Tatum

3- Jaylen
4- Kuzma

I go with the lakers duo because I consider the ceiling Ingram higher than the others
PierceFan4ever
RealGM
Posts: 32,664
And1: 37,978
Joined: Dec 17, 2011

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#68 » by PierceFan4ever » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:04 pm

RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:Yeah I'm not sure where this Ingram having a higher ceiling than Tatum is coming from considering Tatum is better than him right now as a rookie and being younger. Unless you really think Ingram is somehow going to turn into Durant then I don't see how his ceiling is higher. Ingram is still a poor free throw and 3 point shooter but his slashing game has improved; better job at getting to the line. Tatum is already an elite shooter and he still has a lot of room to grow physically and skill wise.


My goodness, even with Kuzma as the only challenging rookie to Simmons...people are rating Tatum higher. If we are talking now, Kuzma is the better player than Tatum or Brown. If we are talking now, Ingram is the better player than Tatum or Brown.

Kuzma, in his rookie season is averaging more points than Jaylen Brown in his 2nd season.

The board fails to realize is that Ingram has more responsibility than Tatum or Jaylen. He's not playing alongside an MVP candidate like Kyrie that can take the pressure off of him and find him more looks...he's playing alongside a rookie guard Lonzo Ball, whose still figuring things out.

The Lakers is Ingram's team now, and he is the points leader, and go to guy, so he is playing with the added pressure of being a team leader. He just sunk a game winner against Philly to boot. That shows you the confidence growth. I can't see Jaylen carrying a team offensively and going head to head with Kevin Durant like Ingram was able to do:



Jaylen might be able to have a good game on occassion, but not over a long period, because he's just not that talented as Ingram.

I actually like Tatum and his skillset. It's comparable to that of a rookie Kobe...just very fluid..good looking shot, etc. I haven't watched him much, but you don't need to see much to know he is very talented. I think Tatum is the only real young talent that can challenge Ingram eventually in this poll. But Ingram simply has the length advantage even if Tatum becomes as special, so you have take Ingram.


Kuzma being the only challenger to Simmons? :lol: First of all, Kuzma is not even close to Simmons so therefore isn't even a challenge. Secondly, both Tatum and Mitchell are rated higher than Kuzma for good reasons. Aside from rebounding, there is nothing Kuzma is better than Tatum at. Every advanced stat favors Tatum offensively and Tatum is a way better defender than Kuzma right now based on stats and eye test. Not to mention, Tatum is 3 years younger than Kuzma so no Kuzma is not better, and this discussion won't be even close the next few seasons. It's the only thing Lakers fans can hold their hat on with because of Ball's poor play. Again, show me how Ingram is better than Tatum at what exactly? Getting to the line more? He shoots 20 percent worse from threes, 20 percent worse from free throws, Tatum beats him in every defensive measure, Tatum almost scores more on less shots and much less usage. Brown and Ingram are near even offensively with Brown shooting better from threes but defensively Brown is much better than Ingram.

You need to realize the Celtics are 23-5 with Brown and Tatum starting and playing 30 minutes a night. They're both huge reasons why the Celtics are sitting on top of the east. You also need to realize that both Tatum and Brown aren't allowed to do whatever they want on the court like the Lakers duo which hinders their stats to put up better numbers. You're acting like Ingram gets double team or carrying a massive workload. If he was, then Kuzma wouldn't be the Lakers leading scorer. You look at Ingram's numbers and they aren't all that impressive like you're suggesting what's impressive is that he looks like an nba player after looking like a dleaguer for the better part of last season. He's not carrying a high load of Randle, Clarkson, Pope, Kuzma, Brook Lopez at times are playing well. And if there's one thing Ball does well, he sets up his teammates to take good shots.

Again, Brown and Ingram's offensive stats are pretty identical except Brown is a much better defender. So your take on Ingram being able to take over is skewed when you don't post any supporting facts. And Brown can't take over as of right now when we have Kyrie Irving on the team and rightfully so. I don't need to see Ingram having his career game against Durant. I also saw Brown being the best player on the Celtics against the Warriors a couple weeks before in a much more anticipated game. I also have seen Brown have strong games against Lebron and the Cavs a couple times now.

Just because someone has length advantage shouldn't favor a certain player over someone who is an elite shooter at age 19 :lol: Ingram has a long ways to go to catch Tatum when it comes to shooting. There's no factual information to suggest that Ingram is better as a scorer. Like I said his shooting levels from 3 and free throws are much worse than Tatum while Tatum being a much better defender. Tatum is also younger and at this stage compared to Ingram last year, he was way better. Ingram still looks raw. I don't think they're that close in talent personally but if Lakers fans want to live off Ingram using his length like Giannis or KD while failing to realize the massive difference in talent or physical strength in Giannis' case, so be it.
PierceFan4ever
RealGM
Posts: 32,664
And1: 37,978
Joined: Dec 17, 2011

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#69 » by PierceFan4ever » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:13 pm

RingsDontLie wrote:
celtics543 wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
My goodness, even with Kuzma as the only challenging rookie to Simmons...people are rating Tatum higher. If we are talking now, Kuzma is the better player than Tatum or Brown. If we are talking now, Ingram is the better player than Tatum or Brown.

Kuzma, in his rookie season is averaging more points than Jaylen Brown in his 2nd season.

The board fails to realize is that Ingram has more responsibility than Tatum or Jaylen. He's not playing alongside an MVP candidate like Kyrie that can take the pressure off of him and find him more looks...he's playing alongside a rookie guard Lonzo Ball, whose still figuring things out.

The Lakers is Ingram's team now, and he is the points leader, and go to guy, so he is playing with the added pressure of being a team leader. He just sunk a game winner against Philly to boot. That shows you the confidence growth. I can't see Jaylen carrying a team offensively and going head to head with Kevin Durant like Ingram was able to do:



Jaylen might be able to have a good game on occassion, but not over a long period, because he's just not that talented as Ingram.

I actually like Tatum and his skillset. It's comparable to that of a rookie Kobe...just very fluid..good looking shot, etc. I haven't watched him much, but you don't need to see much to know he is very talented. I think Tatum is the only real young talent that can challenge Ingram eventually in this poll. But Ingram simply has the length advantage even if Tatum becomes as special, so you have take Ingram.


The Lakers are 10-15....you don't think if Tatum and Brown were on that team they would be putting up huge stats? Tatum and Brown are starters on a team that's 23-5 and are putting up pretty good stats themselves. Let's also not forget that Tatum is a year younger than Ingram and 3 years younger than Kuzma. Jaylen is a year younger than Kuzma and only a year older than Ingram. I'll take the two guys who are growing with a good team and putting up nice efficient stats over the guys leading LA to the 12 seed in the West.

Basically I'd take Tatum over Ingram now and in the future and I'd take Brown over Kuzma now and in the future.


I think you are not taking the physical advantages Ingram has over Tatum. Ingram’s length makes the game that much easier. Someone said Ingram is only 6 months older than Tatum. If true they are essentially the same age.

They both played the same position...SF...but whenever Tatum guarded Ingram when they played against each other it was a big mismatch in Ingram’s favor. But on the other hand Ingram could lock down Tatum or at least make it very difficult on him. You had to put Brown on Ingram. I’m seeing Ingram drawing double teams already. I’d say Ingram is more impactful than Tatum on offense or defense.

What Tatum’s advantage over Ingram right now is his shooting ability. That’s still something Ingram can eventually match, but Tatum will never match Ingram’s size and length.


Ingram has length and wingspan over Tatum. He doesn't have the physical body like Tatum and won't for the near future when Tatum bulks up. I don't need to look at age, I look at where both of them were at this point of the season in their first game and Tatum blows Ingram out of the water at everything.

You do realize Tatum only played about 7 minutes against the Lakers that night before leaving due to injury right? I believe Tatum was on Ingram for like 2 plays in which one of them Ingram drew a foul so I don't get what you're trying to say here.

Tatum's shooting makes the game way easier than it looks if you have ever watched him. He hardly even touches the ball with the Celtics and is putting up 14 ppg with ease. Ingram looks like he has to use every tool he has right now to even average 15-16 points. He's not a reliable shooter so he has to attack the basket in sort of a reckless way at times to create contact or score. He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now. While Ingram may have length over Tatum, he has a long way to go to ever catch Tatum's shooting ability.
jonjames
Veteran
Posts: 2,687
And1: 1,757
Joined: Apr 02, 2016

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#70 » by jonjames » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:57 pm

Tiers based on talent/potential

Tier 1-Ingram Tatum
Tier 2- Brown
Tier 3-Kuzma

Difference in ingram and tatum is very miniscule imo. Both are very talented offensive players and are very solid on tge defensive end with more room for growth esp ingram as he gets stronger. Both will be #1 options for their teams transitioning into their primes. The brown and kuzma comparison is the wildcard. Brown is still able to get his despite being a semi raw offensive scorer while being a good defender. I think ppl place a cap on browns potentialvas just being am allround guy like iggy but he can become a legit 2 way player imo given his current trajectory. On the otherhand Kuzma is fundamentalky solid offensively for a rookie. His handle limits him as a 3rd option scorer andnhis major drawback is hes close to finished product and he only looks to play offense. His inabilty or unwillingness to defend swings this in favor of brown tatum duo. Howevet this comparison isnt runaway as the poll suggests as i believe ingram has the highest ceiling of all the players as well as the fact basketball isnt just about having the two more talented pieces the chemsitry betweemthe players is an important but underlooked factor e.g. two alphas clashing for shot vs players who play within their role and defer to stars
RingsDontLie
Veteran
Posts: 2,670
And1: 1,359
Joined: May 11, 2015

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#71 » by RingsDontLie » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:42 pm

PierceFan4ever wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
celtics543 wrote:
The Lakers are 10-15....you don't think if Tatum and Brown were on that team they would be putting up huge stats? Tatum and Brown are starters on a team that's 23-5 and are putting up pretty good stats themselves. Let's also not forget that Tatum is a year younger than Ingram and 3 years younger than Kuzma. Jaylen is a year younger than Kuzma and only a year older than Ingram. I'll take the two guys who are growing with a good team and putting up nice efficient stats over the guys leading LA to the 12 seed in the West.

Basically I'd take Tatum over Ingram now and in the future and I'd take Brown over Kuzma now and in the future.


I think you are not taking the physical advantages Ingram has over Tatum. Ingram’s length makes the game that much easier. Someone said Ingram is only 6 months older than Tatum. If true they are essentially the same age.

They both played the same position...SF...but whenever Tatum guarded Ingram when they played against each other it was a big mismatch in Ingram’s favor. But on the other hand Ingram could lock down Tatum or at least make it very difficult on him. You had to put Brown on Ingram. I’m seeing Ingram drawing double teams already. I’d say Ingram is more impactful than Tatum on offense or defense.

What Tatum’s advantage over Ingram right now is his shooting ability. That’s still something Ingram can eventually match, but Tatum will never match Ingram’s size and length.


Ingram has length and wingspan over Tatum. He doesn't have the physical body like Tatum and won't for the near future when Tatum bulks up. I don't need to look at age, I look at where both of them were at this point of the season in their first game and Tatum blows Ingram out of the water at everything.

You do realize Tatum only played about 7 minutes against the Lakers that night before leaving due to injury right? I believe Tatum was on Ingram for like 2 plays in which one of them Ingram drew a foul so I don't get what you're trying to say here.

Tatum's shooting makes the game way easier than it looks if you have ever watched him. He hardly even touches the ball with the Celtics and is putting up 14 ppg with ease. Ingram looks like he has to use every tool he has right now to even average 15-16 points. He's not a reliable shooter so he has to attack the basket in sort of a reckless way at times to create contact or score. He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now. While Ingram may have length over Tatum, he has a long way to go to ever catch Tatum's shooting ability.


Ingram has been averaging around 20ppg actually for the last 10 games. Ingram has no problem taking contact and getting to the rim this season. He’s not a better shooter than Tatum right now, but he is a better scorer and that is going to become more evident as the season progresses. In the mid range I’d say Ingram may have a case over Tatum not sure. Long ball Tatum obviously.

Right now Ingram is transitioning to the #1 option and the man. Tatum is more of a decoy and 3rd or 4th option alongside Kylie and horford. Two different situations, with Ingram having to carry the load of #1 option which is a lot more difficult since teams put their best defender on Ingram.
PierceFan4ever
RealGM
Posts: 32,664
And1: 37,978
Joined: Dec 17, 2011

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#72 » by PierceFan4ever » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:58 pm

RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
I think you are not taking the physical advantages Ingram has over Tatum. Ingram’s length makes the game that much easier. Someone said Ingram is only 6 months older than Tatum. If true they are essentially the same age.

They both played the same position...SF...but whenever Tatum guarded Ingram when they played against each other it was a big mismatch in Ingram’s favor. But on the other hand Ingram could lock down Tatum or at least make it very difficult on him. You had to put Brown on Ingram. I’m seeing Ingram drawing double teams already. I’d say Ingram is more impactful than Tatum on offense or defense.

What Tatum’s advantage over Ingram right now is his shooting ability. That’s still something Ingram can eventually match, but Tatum will never match Ingram’s size and length.


Ingram has length and wingspan over Tatum. He doesn't have the physical body like Tatum and won't for the near future when Tatum bulks up. I don't need to look at age, I look at where both of them were at this point of the season in their first game and Tatum blows Ingram out of the water at everything.

You do realize Tatum only played about 7 minutes against the Lakers that night before leaving due to injury right? I believe Tatum was on Ingram for like 2 plays in which one of them Ingram drew a foul so I don't get what you're trying to say here.

Tatum's shooting makes the game way easier than it looks if you have ever watched him. He hardly even touches the ball with the Celtics and is putting up 14 ppg with ease. Ingram looks like he has to use every tool he has right now to even average 15-16 points. He's not a reliable shooter so he has to attack the basket in sort of a reckless way at times to create contact or score. He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now. While Ingram may have length over Tatum, he has a long way to go to ever catch Tatum's shooting ability.


Ingram has been averaging around 20ppg actually for the last 10 games. Ingram has no problem taking contact and getting to the rim this season. He’s not a better shooter than Tatum right now, but he is a better scorer and that is going to become more evident as the season progresses. In the mid range I’d say Ingram may have a case over Tatum not sure. Long ball Tatum obviously.

Right now Ingram is transitioning to the #1 option and the man. Tatum is more of a decoy and 3rd or 4th option alongside Kylie and horford. Two different situations, with Ingram having to carry the load of #1 option which is a lot more difficult since teams put their best defender on Ingram.


Ok last 10 games..sure...last 10 games Jayson Tatum has been shooting around 60/67/89 but is he going to keep that up? Don't think so. That's a small sample size. I need to see more of it and more consistency. Jayson Tatum has no problem taking it to the basket and drawing fouls himself except that he looks more fluid though where Ingram looks like he's going full speed in a reckless way where his elbows are high. If Jayson Tatum is an elite shooter already while Ingram is below average then there's no way he's a better scorer, I'm sorry. Just because someone gets to shoot a whole lot more than the other player doesn't make them the better scorer. Ingram is playing in year 2 anyway compared to Tatum. So the talent different in both of their careers through the first 25 or so games is large. Tatum has Ingram beat in every way, three point shooting, mid range, Iso situations, making free throws. The only thing Ingram has over Tatum as of right now is drawing fouls and that's only because Tatum hardly gets the ball. I watch a lot of Lakers games and there's a big difference in the way the two score and how easy Tatum makes it look to get his points. Ingram still looks raw to me which is not a bad thing as he can still grow, just Tatum has the complete package already at 19 which is raising lots of eyebrows and rightfully so.

Nobody puts their best players on Ingram. Only if it's by design due to playing the same position. I've yet to see any team say "ok we need to stop Ingram". Like I said, Kuzma is the leading lakers scorer. In the 4th quarter Randle and Clarkson have been delivering for you guys. I have yet to see any team double a 190 pound or whatever he is Brandon Ingram because he's not there yet. There's no "load" that Ingram is "carrying" because the truth is Lakers have a lot of average or better talent from Kuzma, Ball, Nance, Lopez, Pope, Clarkson and Randle. Carrying a team is what Lebron is doing, Kyrie is doing, Giannis is doing, Harden is doing, not what Brandon Ingram is doing. No team is game planning for Ingram as of right now. Ingram would be the 4th option on Boston too.
RingsDontLie
Veteran
Posts: 2,670
And1: 1,359
Joined: May 11, 2015

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#73 » by RingsDontLie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:17 am

PierceFan4ever wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:
Ingram has length and wingspan over Tatum. He doesn't have the physical body like Tatum and won't for the near future when Tatum bulks up. I don't need to look at age, I look at where both of them were at this point of the season in their first game and Tatum blows Ingram out of the water at everything.

You do realize Tatum only played about 7 minutes against the Lakers that night before leaving due to injury right? I believe Tatum was on Ingram for like 2 plays in which one of them Ingram drew a foul so I don't get what you're trying to say here.

Tatum's shooting makes the game way easier than it looks if you have ever watched him. He hardly even touches the ball with the Celtics and is putting up 14 ppg with ease. Ingram looks like he has to use every tool he has right now to even average 15-16 points. He's not a reliable shooter so he has to attack the basket in sort of a reckless way at times to create contact or score. He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now. While Ingram may have length over Tatum, he has a long way to go to ever catch Tatum's shooting ability.


Ingram has been averaging around 20ppg actually for the last 10 games. Ingram has no problem taking contact and getting to the rim this season. He’s not a better shooter than Tatum right now, but he is a better scorer and that is going to become more evident as the season progresses. In the mid range I’d say Ingram may have a case over Tatum not sure. Long ball Tatum obviously.

Right now Ingram is transitioning to the #1 option and the man. Tatum is more of a decoy and 3rd or 4th option alongside Kylie and horford. Two different situations, with Ingram having to carry the load of #1 option which is a lot more difficult since teams put their best defender on Ingram.


Ok last 10 games..sure...last 10 games Jayson Tatum has been shooting around 60/67/89 but is he going to keep that up? Don't think so. That's a small sample size. I need to see more of it and more consistency. Jayson Tatum has no problem taking it to the basket and drawing fouls himself except that he looks more fluid though where Ingram looks like he's going full speed in a reckless way where his elbows are high. If Jayson Tatum is an elite shooter already while Ingram is below average then there's no way he's a better scorer, I'm sorry. Just because someone gets to shoot a whole lot more than the other player doesn't make them the better scorer. Ingram is playing in year 2 anyway compared to Tatum. So the talent different in both of their careers through the first 25 or so games is large. Tatum has Ingram beat in every way, three point shooting, mid range, Iso situations, making free throws. The only thing Ingram has over Tatum as of right now is drawing fouls and that's only because Tatum hardly gets the ball. I watch a lot of Lakers games and there's a big difference in the way the two score and how easy Tatum makes it look to get his points. Ingram still looks raw to me which is not a bad thing as he can still grow, just Tatum has the complete package already at 19 which is raising lots of eyebrows and rightfully so.

Nobody puts their best players on Ingram. Only if it's by design due to playing the same position. I've yet to see any team say "ok we need to stop Ingram". Like I said, Kuzma is the leading lakers scorer. In the 4th quarter Randle and Clarkson have been delivering for you guys. I have yet to see any team double a 190 pound or whatever he is Brandon Ingram because he's not there yet. There's no "load" that Ingram is "carrying" because the truth is Lakers have a lot of average or better talent from Kuzma, Ball, Nance, Lopez, Pope, Clarkson and Randle. Carrying a team is what Lebron is doing, Kyrie is doing, Giannis is doing, Harden is doing, not what Brandon Ingram is doing. No team is game planning for Ingram as of right now. Ingram would be the 4th option on Boston too.


Hate to keep correcting you but Ingram is technically the leading scorer of the Lakers, not Kuzma. I'm not going to change your opinion, you are not going to change mine. We will see how the season plays out, and who is "better." Ingram both short term and long term is the better player overall, and he is just barely getting starting this season. His numbers are going to continue to climb. I think Tatum's numbers will stay where they are this season...14ppg or so.
PierceFan4ever
RealGM
Posts: 32,664
And1: 37,978
Joined: Dec 17, 2011

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#74 » by PierceFan4ever » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:43 am

RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
Ingram has been averaging around 20ppg actually for the last 10 games. Ingram has no problem taking contact and getting to the rim this season. He’s not a better shooter than Tatum right now, but he is a better scorer and that is going to become more evident as the season progresses. In the mid range I’d say Ingram may have a case over Tatum not sure. Long ball Tatum obviously.

Right now Ingram is transitioning to the #1 option and the man. Tatum is more of a decoy and 3rd or 4th option alongside Kylie and horford. Two different situations, with Ingram having to carry the load of #1 option which is a lot more difficult since teams put their best defender on Ingram.


Ok last 10 games..sure...last 10 games Jayson Tatum has been shooting around 60/67/89 but is he going to keep that up? Don't think so. That's a small sample size. I need to see more of it and more consistency. Jayson Tatum has no problem taking it to the basket and drawing fouls himself except that he looks more fluid though where Ingram looks like he's going full speed in a reckless way where his elbows are high. If Jayson Tatum is an elite shooter already while Ingram is below average then there's no way he's a better scorer, I'm sorry. Just because someone gets to shoot a whole lot more than the other player doesn't make them the better scorer. Ingram is playing in year 2 anyway compared to Tatum. So the talent different in both of their careers through the first 25 or so games is large. Tatum has Ingram beat in every way, three point shooting, mid range, Iso situations, making free throws. The only thing Ingram has over Tatum as of right now is drawing fouls and that's only because Tatum hardly gets the ball. I watch a lot of Lakers games and there's a big difference in the way the two score and how easy Tatum makes it look to get his points. Ingram still looks raw to me which is not a bad thing as he can still grow, just Tatum has the complete package already at 19 which is raising lots of eyebrows and rightfully so.

Nobody puts their best players on Ingram. Only if it's by design due to playing the same position. I've yet to see any team say "ok we need to stop Ingram". Like I said, Kuzma is the leading lakers scorer. In the 4th quarter Randle and Clarkson have been delivering for you guys. I have yet to see any team double a 190 pound or whatever he is Brandon Ingram because he's not there yet. There's no "load" that Ingram is "carrying" because the truth is Lakers have a lot of average or better talent from Kuzma, Ball, Nance, Lopez, Pope, Clarkson and Randle. Carrying a team is what Lebron is doing, Kyrie is doing, Giannis is doing, Harden is doing, not what Brandon Ingram is doing. No team is game planning for Ingram as of right now. Ingram would be the 4th option on Boston too.


Hate to keep correcting you but Ingram is technically the leading scorer of the Lakers, not Kuzma. I'm not going to change your opinion, you are not going to change mine. We will see how the season plays out, and who is "better." Ingram both short term and long term is the better player overall, and he is just barely getting starting this season. His numbers are going to continue to climb. I think Tatum's numbers will stay where they are this season...14ppg or so.


My mistake, after last game, Ingram hopped Kuzma in scoring after 25 or so games in when it was Kyle. But yeah agree to disagree except the numbers don't lie in Tatum being the way efficient player on offense and a much better defender while being a rookie compared to a second year player. Only reason Ingram puts up more is because he gets to shoot more on a less talented squad.
RingsDontLie
Veteran
Posts: 2,670
And1: 1,359
Joined: May 11, 2015

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#75 » by RingsDontLie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:45 am

PierceFan4ever wrote:He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now.


Wow if there ever was a game that tatum could of proved you right it was today against the bulls with No Kyrie.

Tatum vs Bulls tonight without Kyrie: 4 points, 14% FG.

4 points in 30 minutes of play seriously! I know he benefits a lot from Kyrie...everyone on that team does but this was definitely an eye opener. Perhaps just a bad game. Be interesting to see more games without Kyrie.

Jaylen a little bit better, 13 points on 41% shooting.

Let's see what Ingram gets next game with no Kyrie. :wink:
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 22,395
And1: 18,813
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#76 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:50 am

RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now.


Wow if there ever was a game that tatum could of proved you right it was today against the bulls with No Kyrie.

Tatum vs Bulls tonight without Kyrie: 4 points, 14% FG.

4 points in 30 minutes of play seriously! I know he benefits a lot from Kyrie...everyone on that team does but this was definitely an eye opener. Perhaps just a bad game. Be interesting to see more games without Kyrie.

Jaylen a little bit better, 13 points on 41% shooting.

Let's see what Ingram gets next game with no Kyrie. :wink:

Tatum has had 4 point games with Irving, they happen especially when you're a rookie.
RingsDontLie
Veteran
Posts: 2,670
And1: 1,359
Joined: May 11, 2015

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#77 » by RingsDontLie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:51 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now.


Wow if there ever was a game that tatum could of proved you right it was today against the bulls with No Kyrie.

Tatum vs Bulls tonight without Kyrie: 4 points, 14% FG.

4 points in 30 minutes of play seriously! I know he benefits a lot from Kyrie...everyone on that team does but this was definitely an eye opener. Perhaps just a bad game. Be interesting to see more games without Kyrie.

Jaylen a little bit better, 13 points on 41% shooting.

Let's see what Ingram gets next game with no Kyrie. :wink:

Tatum has had 4 point games with Irving, they happen especially when you're a rookie.


Yes but your boy is claiming Tatum is a better scorer than Ingram now... :crazy:

As in...

PierceFan4ever wrote:The only thing Ingram has over Tatum as of right now is drawing fouls and that's only because Tatum hardly gets the ball. I watch a lot of Lakers games and there's a big difference in the way the two score and how easy Tatum makes it look to get his points.
PierceFan4ever
RealGM
Posts: 32,664
And1: 37,978
Joined: Dec 17, 2011

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#78 » by PierceFan4ever » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:54 am

RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now.


Wow if there ever was a game that tatum could of proved you right it was today against the bulls with No Kyrie.

Tatum vs Bulls tonight without Kyrie: 4 points, 14% FG.

4 points in 30 minutes of play seriously! I know he benefits a lot from Kyrie...everyone on that team does but this was definitely an eye opener. Perhaps just a bad game. Be interesting to see more games without Kyrie.

Jaylen a little bit better, 13 points on 41% shooting.

Let's see what Ingram gets next game with no Kyrie. :wink:


Really a one game sample size in a game where the whole team played bad? Youre a notorious hot take type of poster so it's surprising. But yeah Tatum played his worse game to date after playing great the last 10 or so. Not a single Celtic played well. Ingram has plenty of bad games as does Kuzma this season. Tatum isn't Lebron where he should be consistent every game. He's a rookie and Ingram is in his second year so Ingram SHOULD be better by playing a year more in the league but again numbers don't lie and Tatum has Ingram beat in almost every advanced stat. Try checking Tatum's numbers the other 2 games without Kyrie if he really struggled. You base too many things in a single game on a second night of a back to back with the 3rd game in 4 nights.
PierceFan4ever
RealGM
Posts: 32,664
And1: 37,978
Joined: Dec 17, 2011

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#79 » by PierceFan4ever » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:55 am

RingsDontLie wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
Wow if there ever was a game that tatum could of proved you right it was today against the bulls with No Kyrie.

Tatum vs Bulls tonight without Kyrie: 4 points, 14% FG.

4 points in 30 minutes of play seriously! I know he benefits a lot from Kyrie...everyone on that team does but this was definitely an eye opener. Perhaps just a bad game. Be interesting to see more games without Kyrie.

Jaylen a little bit better, 13 points on 41% shooting.

Let's see what Ingram gets next game with no Kyrie. :wink:

Tatum has had 4 point games with Irving, they happen especially when you're a rookie.


Yes but your boy is claiming Tatum is a better scorer than Ingram now... :crazy:


He easily is with based on efficieny and shooting 4 shots less while only scoring 2 points less. You have no stats to support your claim.
RingsDontLie
Veteran
Posts: 2,670
And1: 1,359
Joined: May 11, 2015

Re: Kuzma and Ingram or Tatum and J. Brown? 

Post#80 » by RingsDontLie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:58 am

PierceFan4ever wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:
PierceFan4ever wrote:He's not even close to the scorer Tatum will be as of right now.


Wow if there ever was a game that tatum could of proved you right it was today against the bulls with No Kyrie.

Tatum vs Bulls tonight without Kyrie: 4 points, 14% FG.

4 points in 30 minutes of play seriously! I know he benefits a lot from Kyrie...everyone on that team does but this was definitely an eye opener. Perhaps just a bad game. Be interesting to see more games without Kyrie.

Jaylen a little bit better, 13 points on 41% shooting.

Let's see what Ingram gets next game with no Kyrie. :wink:


Really a one game sample size in a game where the whole team played bad? Youre a notorious hot take type of poster so it's surprising. But yeah Tatum played his worse game to date after playing great the last 10 or so. Not a single Celtic played well. Ingram has plenty of bad games as does Kuzma this season. Tatum isn't Lebron where he should be consistent every game. He's a rookie and Ingram is in his second year so Ingram SHOULD be better by playing a year more in the league but again numbers don't lie and Tatum has Ingram beat in almost every advanced stat. Try checking Tatum's numbers the other 2 games without Kyrie if he really struggled. You base too many things in a single game on a second night of a back to back with the 3rd game in 4 nights.


You went overboard saying Ingram is a better scorer than Ingram now. If you think he will eventually be, that's a different story. But to say he is now, that's absolutely absurd. Ingram is almost unstoppable when going to the rim. Ingram doesn't even need to be awake to score 4 points.

Return to Player Comparisons