All-Time FGA restricted draft Matchup Thread: 3. Basketballfan7 vs 14. Ronnymac2

[pandrade83]

I’m keeping my votes on other threads brief because I’ve expended a lot of words on mine.

I worry About the offensive consistency of bb7 and vote ronniemac.

[ronnymac2]

I will have a more thorough response tomorrow, but I want to say I'm not sure why it matters which round players were drafted. At this point, the teams are there in front of everybody. I say just play.

[MisterHibachi]

This is a very difficult match up to judge.

I like Spaceman's analogy to the 2015 finals. Chime in here, ronny, if this is not your game plan, but I'm imagining your best shot is to absolutely grind the pace down. I think this match up is very dependent on who controls the pace. 7's team will be devastating running, but Billups is one of the best at game management. If the game plan is to slow the pace, he will manage that for sure. But while 7's team is better running, they aren't gonna be choked in the half court either.

I'm not too enthusiastic about the non-spacing 4 around Shaq though. Grant is a great player, but 7's help defense looks really good if you have one guy they can cheat off of. I really like Pierce and Billups in these formats, but Pierce in particular is facing a tough matchup. Pippen should smother him. Pierce has a history of getting absolutely locked down by LeBron in the playoffs, and I expect we'll see something similar from Pippen here. I'm honestly not expecting much from Pierce in this series beyond what others can create for him on spot ups; I don't think ronny can rely on any sort of playmaking or dribble creation from him when he's guarded by Pippen. Billups has a more favourable match up, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with Billups as a primary perimeter creator.

[BasketballFan7]

I will have a more thorough response tomorrow, but I want to say I'm not sure why it matters which round players were drafted. At this point, the teams are there in front of everybody. I say just play.

Honestly, I'd rather delete that segment at this point. It has already received too much attention. It was only used to support my claim that the team is lower on talent than fit.

[ronnymac2]

Rebuttal:

First thing I want to point out is that allowing Horace Grant to parade jumpers away to his heart's content is basically the strategy Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen used in 1995 when Orlando eliminated Chicago and Horace was the MVP of the series after dropping 18 and 11 on about 65% shooting. The last image from that series is Shaq hoisting Horace Grant up on his shoulders as they celebrated. Horace's game is mid-range jump shots, using his motor/quickness on the offensive glass (3 ORPG, 9.8 OREB% in 1995 with Shaq on the inside as well) to finish inside shots, and reacting quickly. Horace has proven, in the year I selected, that he can take major advantage of an opponent who allows him to parade those jumpers and allows him space to move freely.

I wouldn't be so sure about Alonzo shutting down his dives to the rim either. Horace has proven chemistry shoveling the ball to Shaq once help comes, and he is very low turnover. This isn't a blackhole type of player who fumbles the ball trying to dish it inside (like, say, Alonzo Mourning on the other end).

As far as Pierce being defended by Scottie Pippen, yes Scottie is a great defender. But Scottie has many other responsibilities on defense.

I've got two players with all-time elite gravity in two different yet super-efficient spaces on the court: Shaq posting up inside and Korver running around and being sprung open for 3-pointers at 49%. Scottie is going to be doing a lot of helping. My opponent said Bird is going to be doubling Shaq and swiping the ball away, but how does that work when Bird is guarding Horace, who just set a screen on the other side of the court for Korver on the wing. Ultimately, Larry Bird's responsibility is to make sure Kyle Korver doesn't bomb a 3 from 25 feet away. How exactly do you effectively double Shaq? Scottie and Khris are the other guys my opponent said would double Shaq, but Khris has his own problems dealing with Korver. Is 1991 Scottie going to double Shaq and then be able to closeout and guard Paul Pierce when PP has a step on him? Paul Pierce (who by the way had not lost a step in 2008; he had two other all-stars on his team and valued winning above all else) is a monster to guard in isolation for anybody...it's for sure even more difficult when his primary defender can't solely focus on him and PP already has a step on the catch.

I don't have a need to spam PP isos vs. Scottie Pippen. I don't want to do that, and I don't need to do that.

I'm not going to be posting up Chauncey in this series. As I said in my first post, Chauncey's going to attack mainly from the perimeter, either through shooting or slashing where he can draw the defense or draw fouls. And remember, just because he isn't Curry/Harden doesn't mean we can go to the other extreme. Chauncey Billups was a 43% 3-point shooter on high volume (2.3 out of 5.2 per game).

As far as pace, yes, I do want a slower pace. Not late 90's Cleveland Terrell Brandon slow pace, but not current GSW either. We want to slow down and execute our offense.

What I've done is I've taken players in certain seasons who were optimized and allowed to play to their strengths, and I've optimized those great players even more. 2008 Paul Pierce took advantage of Ray Allen running through screens and shooting. He's got Korver performing the same thing. Chauncey and Rip Hamilton had great chemistry and were the leading scorers on a top-ranked offense in 2006. Korver's 3 is a more potent weapon than Hamilton's 2. Shaq reached his apex with A.C. Green at 53 years old starting next to him and affording him poor spacing. Shaq's got all the spacing he'd ever want and an All-Star level PF who he has proven chemistry with in Horace Grant. Hell, they put those two together in 2001 and it resulted in the GOAT playoff team.

My opponent is talking about putting Bird and Mourning in pick-n-roll. I welcome that. I would love to force Bird to pass (which he will do because he's unselfish) and have Mourning catching the ball 16 feet away on the move. Cousins and Davis can do this because they have handles and creative vision. Alonzo does not, and he never excelled in that role. Remember what I said above about Horace being proven at shoveling passes on the interior to O'Neal? Horace is in an optimal role. All my players are in an optimal role. Some of my opponent's players are not.

[BasketballFan7]

Super smart poster.

Rebuttal:

First thing I want to point out is that allowing Horace Grant to parade jumpers away to his heart's content is basically the strategy Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen used in 1995 when Orlando eliminated Chicago and Horace was the MVP of the series after dropping 18 and 11 on about 65% shooting. The last image from that series is Shaq hoisting Horace Grant up on his shoulders as they celebrated. Horace's game is mid-range jump shots, using his motor/quickness on the offensive glass (3 ORPG, 9.8 OREB% in 1995 with Shaq on the inside as well) to finish inside shots, and reacting quickly. Horace has proven, in the year I selected, that he can take major advantage of an opponent who allows him to parade those jumpers and allows him space to move freely.

I wouldn't be so sure about Alonzo shutting down his dives to the rim either. Horace has proven chemistry shoveling the ball to Shaq once help comes, and he is very low turnover. This isn't a blackhole type of player who fumbles the ball trying to dish it inside (like, say, Alonzo Mourning on the other end).

Spoiler:

Nice information, but I don't buy the last part one bit. We only have to look at the contrast between the Bulls' centers and Mourning. The Bulls had a trio of tall stiffs in Longley, Perdue, and Wennington. No mobility whatsoever, and despite all three being 7'0" or taller, let's look at their porous block numbers. We'll do per 100 possessions.

Perdue: 1.8 blocks
Lonley: 2.3 blocks
Wennington: .9 blocks

Mourning: 5.8 blocks

The disparity is so great you can combine the totals of the Bulls' 3 centers, giving them 300 cumulative possessions, and they still register far fewer blocks than Zo did in 100 possessions. Blocks aren't the end all. But Zo won DPOY over Duncan and Deke, among others. The Bulls had stiffs and were yet to replace Grant with Rodman. Who we also have.

Without Rodman, Toni Kukoc played most of the minutes at the 4. Kukoc averaged nearly 40 minutes per game in the Magic series. Kukoc! Larry isn't stellar on D, but he's an awesome help defender and leagues better than Kukoc.

Mentioning rebounding doesn't help, either. Grant feasted on the offensive glass against Kukoc, who averaged 5.2 defensive rebounds per 100 possessions. Bird is far superior on the defensive glass, almost twice as good! 9.4 defensive boards per 100. Then there's rebounding messiah Rodman, and Mourning during the best rebounding season of his career.

As far as Pierce being defended by Scottie Pippen, yes Scottie is a great defender. But Scottie has many other responsibilities on defense.

I've got two players with all-time elite gravity in two different yet super-efficient spaces on the court: Shaq posting up inside and Korver running around and being sprung open for 3-pointers at 49%. Scottie is going to be doing a lot of helping. My opponent said Bird is going to be doubling Shaq and swiping the ball away, but how does that work when Bird is guarding Horace, who just set a screen on the other side of the court for Korver on the wing. Ultimately, Larry Bird's responsibility is to make sure Kyle Korver doesn't bomb a 3 from 25 feet away. How exactly do you effectively double Shaq? Scottie and Khris are the other guys my opponent said would double Shaq, but Khris has his own problems dealing with Korver. Is 1991 Scottie going to double Shaq and then be able to closeout and guard Paul Pierce when PP has a step on him? Paul Pierce (who by the way had not lost a step in 2008; he had two other all-stars on his team and valued winning above all else) is a monster to guard in isolation for anybody...it's for sure even more difficult when his primary defender can't solely focus on him and PP already has a step on the catch.

Spoiler:

It doesn't have to be Bird who doubles. We're too long all around for that to matter. If Horace forces Bird to switch onto Korver, that's fine. He's smart enough, long enough to do that, and Middleton/Pippen are large enough human beings to cover Grant. If Grant sees Middleton as a mismatch, that's wonderful for my team. That mismatch is still an overall inefficient offensive play for your team, or for the standards of this league. That's the goal of switching: switch, deal with the "mismatch," and avoid defensive confusion/breakdowns. And, again, Mourning. What I said above.

And Pierce had lost a step. Not that it matters, even peak athletic Pierce wasn't a high flying monster, but early 2000s Pierce was more athletic.

We're not taking the Billups/Pierce assignments off to help. The chink in the armor is Grant (or Mason). The best thing the perimeter defenders can do is shut down the three-point game, make entry passes difficult, and make timely switches/steals.

Oh, and let's not gloss over that we're talking about Kyle Korver on offense. As Spaceman said, Korver is "not good enough to start in this league." Do I need to elaborate on the ways in which he gets beat here? You force a switch between Pippen and Bird and I'm fine, or Middleton and Bird. But Korver getting switched? The Korver talk is only to make us overlook how badly he compromises his team's defense

I don't have a need to spam PP isos vs. Scottie Pippen. I don't want to do that, and I don't need to do that.

I'm not going to be posting up Chauncey in this series. As I said in my first post, Chauncey's going to attack mainly from the perimeter, either through shooting or slashing where he can draw the defense or draw fouls. And remember, just because he isn't Curry/Harden doesn't mean we can go to the other extreme. Chauncey Billups was a 43% 3-point shooter on high volume (2.3 out of 5.2 per game).

Spoiler:

He's a good shooter, of course. But he's not pulling up off the dribble with a sliver of daylight when running the pick and roll, and Conley is nasty at fighting through (around) screens.

As far as pace, yes, I do want a slower pace. Not late 90's Cleveland Terrell Brandon slow pace, but not current GSW either. We want to slow down and execute our offense.

Spoiler:

We're suited to play fast or slow. Your team is restricted to the latter.

What I've done is I've taken players in certain seasons who were optimized and allowed to play to their strengths, and I've optimized those great players even more. 2008 Paul Pierce took advantage of Ray Allen running through screens and shooting. He's got Korver performing the same thing. Chauncey and Rip Hamilton had great chemistry and were the leading scorers on a top-ranked offense in 2006. Korver's 3 is a more potent weapon than Hamilton's 2. Shaq reached his apex with A.C. Green at 53 years old starting next to him and affording him poor spacing. Shaq's got all the spacing he'd ever want and an All-Star level PF who he has proven chemistry with in Horace Grant. Hell, they put those two together in 2001 and it resulted in the GOAT playoff team.

Spoiler:

Your team is absolutely realistic and it's easy to see how it would all work. But this isn't the actual NBA. Pierce had Allen performing the same thing as Korver, but Allen was the better player. Your team has a worse player performing the same function, and this is a fantasy squad. Shaq had Grant in real life, and he has him here. It's impressive, but it's reserved.

I'll also add: those real-life 2001 Lakers had a better second option than your team does.

Let's compare that with my Bird. 86 Bird had McHale taking on agile forwards. Now Bird has Pippen (!) catching that assignment, and there are no players switching positions. Danny Ainge was 6'4" 180 and shooting one three a game at 35%. Middleton is 6'8" 230, shooting over 40% on 3 attempts a game, a far superior defender, and, like Pippen, far more dangerous in transition than his Celtics' counterpart. 86 Bird was creating easy baskets for Robert Parrish, and now he has peak Alonzo Mourning. Bird had 31-year-old Dennis Johnson (51 TS%) mucking up spacing, now he has Mike Conley.

Then, the bench! Freaking Dennis Rodman and Manu Ginobili are coming off the bench, and the worst player is the PG that you admitted to having wanted, Greg Anthony, who plays D and hits 3s. His counterpart? Andre Miller, who, like Korver, will have trouble even staying on the court.

The team around Bird is far bigger, more athletic, and provides far more spacing than he ever had to work with. It's unbelievable -- and it should be, because this is a fantasy draft.

My opponent is talking about putting Bird and Mourning in pick-n-roll. I welcome that. I would love to force Bird to pass (which he will do because he's unselfish) and have Mourning catching the ball 16 feet away on the move. Cousins and Davis can do this because they have handles and creative vision. Alonzo does not, and he never excelled in that role. Remember what I said above about Horace being proven at shoveling passes on the interior to O'Neal? Horace is in an optimal role. All my players are in an optimal role. Some of my opponent's players are not.

Spoiler:

The assignment for Mourning is no different than he would have with the P&R with Conley, Pippen, or Ginobili. Mourning was a killer finisher, the issue he had was being relied on to be a team's number one option. Here, he's behind Bird and Manu in the pecking order, and roughly with Pippen and Conley. Bird forcing two bigs (and Shaq in particular) out onto the perimeter -- with spacing all around -- is death to the defense. We can cut behind it or find the crease. Switch and Shaq is stuck on the perimeter, clearing the defense of rim protection (and without stellar perimeter D to halt penetration). Don't switch and Horace Grant is fighting through screens at the three point line and Bird is lazering a pass to Zo with no rim protection. Or, Conley and Zo pick and roll, where Conley can either shoot or drive; Conley shot 45% from midrange in 2013, and is 38% for his career from 3. He only shot 36% from 3 in 2013, but if Shaq isn't willing to go out to the line, Conley will surely shoot 40+% on open looks.

Or maybe we'll run Bird/Middleton pick and roll to get Korver involved. With Bird's passing, shooting... it's an inevitable win. We can run pick and roll with Middleton screening for Conley or Pippen. Or get Korver involved by forcing him to switch with off-ball action, say with Middleton screening Billups, Pierce, or Grant, forcing Korver onto Conley, Pippen, or Bird.

I'm kind of rambling. The point is that there are a million ways to attack Shaq or Korver, and Grant/Billups/Pierce aren't nearly good enough to compensate. Or the bench, which is inferior to ours.
FWIW, Bird P&R isn't (and shouldn't be) the staple of my offense. But Shaq & Korver are so susceptible to it that it's irresistible.

Sorry, got to ranting towards the end. Had to, ronnymac is too damn strong at stating his case. There was a lot to cover.

[E-Balla]

Title fight in round 1 I love it. Still can't decide right now.

[MisterHibachi]

Spoiler:

Rebuttal:

First thing I want to point out is that allowing Horace Grant to parade jumpers away to his heart's content is basically the strategy Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen used in 1995 when Orlando eliminated Chicago and Horace was the MVP of the series after dropping 18 and 11 on about 65% shooting. The last image from that series is Shaq hoisting Horace Grant up on his shoulders as they celebrated. Horace's game is mid-range jump shots, using his motor/quickness on the offensive glass (3 ORPG, 9.8 OREB% in 1995 with Shaq on the inside as well) to finish inside shots, and reacting quickly. Horace has proven, in the year I selected, that he can take major advantage of an opponent who allows him to parade those jumpers and allows him space to move freely.

I wouldn't be so sure about Alonzo shutting down his dives to the rim either. Horace has proven chemistry shoveling the ball to Shaq once help comes, and he is very low turnover. This isn't a blackhole type of player who fumbles the ball trying to dish it inside (like, say, Alonzo Mourning on the other end).

As far as Pierce being defended by Scottie Pippen, yes Scottie is a great defender. But Scottie has many other responsibilities on defense.

I've got two players with all-time elite gravity in two different yet super-efficient spaces on the court: Shaq posting up inside and Korver running around and being sprung open for 3-pointers at 49%. Scottie is going to be doing a lot of helping. My opponent said Bird is going to be doubling Shaq and swiping the ball away, but how does that work when Bird is guarding Horace, who just set a screen on the other side of the court for Korver on the wing. Ultimately, Larry Bird's responsibility is to make sure Kyle Korver doesn't bomb a 3 from 25 feet away. How exactly do you effectively double Shaq? Scottie and Khris are the other guys my opponent said would double Shaq, but Khris has his own problems dealing with Korver. Is 1991 Scottie going to double Shaq and then be able to closeout and guard Paul Pierce when PP has a step on him? Paul Pierce (who by the way had not lost a step in 2008; he had two other all-stars on his team and valued winning above all else) is a monster to guard in isolation for anybody...it's for sure even more difficult when his primary defender can't solely focus on him and PP already has a step on the catch.

I don't have a need to spam PP isos vs. Scottie Pippen. I don't want to do that, and I don't need to do that.

I'm not going to be posting up Chauncey in this series. As I said in my first post, Chauncey's going to attack mainly from the perimeter, either through shooting or slashing where he can draw the defense or draw fouls. And remember, just because he isn't Curry/Harden doesn't mean we can go to the other extreme. Chauncey Billups was a 43% 3-point shooter on high volume (2.3 out of 5.2 per game).

As far as pace, yes, I do want a slower pace. Not late 90's Cleveland Terrell Brandon slow pace, but not current GSW either. We want to slow down and execute our offense.

What I've done is I've taken players in certain seasons who were optimized and allowed to play to their strengths, and I've optimized those great players even more. 2008 Paul Pierce took advantage of Ray Allen running through screens and shooting. He's got Korver performing the same thing. Chauncey and Rip Hamilton had great chemistry and were the leading scorers on a top-ranked offense in 2006. Korver's 3 is a more potent weapon than Hamilton's 2. Shaq reached his apex with A.C. Green at 53 years old starting next to him and affording him poor spacing. Shaq's got all the spacing he'd ever want and an All-Star level PF who he has proven chemistry with in Horace Grant. Hell, they put those two together in 2001 and it resulted in the GOAT playoff team.

My opponent is talking about putting Bird and Mourning in pick-n-roll. I welcome that. I would love to force Bird to pass (which he will do because he's unselfish) and have Mourning catching the ball 16 feet away on the move. Cousins and Davis can do this because they have handles and creative vision. Alonzo does not, and he never excelled in that role. Remember what I said above about Horace being proven at shoveling passes on the interior to O'Neal? Horace is in an optimal role. All my players are in an optimal role. Some of my opponent's players are not.

Are you planning on trapping Bird and Mourning pick and rolls, presumably with Shaq? Don't know why Bird would be "forced" to pass otherwise.

[ronnymac2]

Are you planning on trapping Bird and Mourning pick and rolls, presumably with Shaq? Don't know why Bird would be "forced" to pass otherwise.

I'm planning on my primary defender on Bird (Pierce, Grant/Mason) being aggressive about going over the screen to not let Bird get a good look. Bird isn't Curry/Lillard/Kyrie where it takes a split second of daylight to create space off the dribble for 3's. I am in the camp that Larry Bird would be a great 3-point shooter in this era on higher volume than he was during his own era (where he was a great shooter then, too), but giving him the off-the-dribble, quick-shot-release shooting ability of current PGs off pick-n-roll would be gifting him an extremely difficult skillset to master that he didn't have back in his day.

With that pick-n-roll, I trust that Mourning won't be able to make the second pass for a corner 3 when help comes. That's the value of the pick-n-roll imo. Pick-n-roll is at it's best when the two-man game is really a two-man super gravitational pull to get the other three guys open shots (see Curry/Draymond 2016). But both guys need to have great offensive awareness, passing and ball-handling skill, and vision to maximize it. Alonzo was 1.6 assist, 3 turnover C with poor handles. We're not talking Garnett here.

[ronnymac2]

Very good rebuttal by BasketballFan7. Just two minor quibbles:

1. Running your offense through a non-2018 version of Middleton to take advantage of Korver, who is 6'8", long, and smart, is fine by me. Middleton isn't scaring me with volume in the slightest.

2. Playing off Grant doesn't just mean playing off Grant; it means playing off the wing shooters his screens spring open. I have deadly shooters. I have the second best shooter in this league.

Other than that...I think we both got our stuff in. I'm cool with my writeup and rebuttal. BasketballFan7 did an outstanding job with his.

Get out and vote!

[BasketballFan7]

Very good rebuttal by BasketballFan7. Just two minor quibbles:

1. Running your offense through a non-2018 version of Middleton to take advantage of Korver, who is 6'8", long, and smart, is fine by me. Middleton isn't scaring me with volume in the slightest.

Spoiler:

I wouldn't run offense through Middleton; I'm assuming you have Korver guarding him, and I'm using Middleton as the pick man to get Korver in the play. Or, better, when Manu subs in for Middleton, Korver will be stuck on either Manu or Pippen.

Get out and vote!

Yeah, we can call it quits, though I'm tempted to respond to the pick and roll post. My closing comments:

- My defense matches up well with opponent strengths (Shaq, Pierce, shooting against Zo, Scottie, double team off Grant)

- My offense is suited to take advantage of opponent's defensive weaknesses (Shaq, Korver, lack of elite defenders/athletes)

- Rodman gives us the rebounding edge, along with Pippen at SF

- Manu & Rodman gives us the bench edge already, and Andre Miller is 37 on the other side

[E-Balla]

I'm going to officially vote BBallFan7 on this one. Spent too much time thinking about this matchup but in the end I was swayed by the lack of perimeter defense from ronnymac.

[Myth_Breaker]

Observations:

1) I love some Manu, but not as much as I used to, since with each passing year he seems to be more and more overrated, including these boards. Like in the current Top-100 voting: Reggie over great 2-way center, season/Finals MVP in Reed is already bad (and I love also Reggie), but Miller was at least 1st option for his team, so putting also <30 mpg player in Ginobili over Reed is two times worse. OK, for this thread I just wanted to say I won't be as swayed by Manu's presence as perhaps some others.

2) If I were in BasketballFan7's shoes, I would probably try to go big, with Gino at PG (creative enough, and while not a great defender, at this position he's at least got length advantage), Pip at SG, Bird at SF and Rodman at PF (of course his next picks would have to be adjusted for that). Though it's true that by doing that he'd lose some 3P shooting in the starting 5 - but the overall defense would be even stingier.

3) Ronnymac2's squad is almost flawless, taking into account both starters and bench. The only issue I may have with it is that Mason is SF/PF and not a rim protector, and also potentially Horace is not good in a role of rim protecting backup 5, so this role remains not filled. But Grant next to Shaq is of course a tried and tested combo, then you have around clutch perimeter players with Finals MVPs under their belt in Pierce and Billups (very talented, but with ego/talent not large enough to threated Shaq and thus endanger chemistry), plus some valuable role players in Danny Green, Korver or Mason. Great job!

4) Though BasketballFan7 doesn't have a real backup center either. In turn as to clutch players/dominant scorers of course he's got the best one here in Bird, but in decisive moments I would like to have anyway Billups/Korver or Green/Pierce combo over Conley/Manu/Bird combo anyway.

5) Middleton lacks a big game experience in this comparison.

Conclusions:
BasketballFan7's squad constructed around Larry Legend put a valiant fight here, but it is Ronnymac2's team in 6.

[MisterHibachi]

Probably the most difficult match up to judge. Changed my mind about 5 times already. I'm gonna vote for 7 here, but just barely. I don't buy Pierce as a difference maker in this series when guarded by Pippen and Billups isn't good enough to be the primary perimeter creator imo.

[BasketballFan7]

Gaaaaaaaah. I don’t know. If Ronny had "great” defenders all through his lineup instead of just “solid”, I’d pick him without questioning much. As is, I’m not sure his offense is quite as high powered as he thought it was, at least compared to two of the most dynamic offensive players ever. Maybe he can convince me I’m missing his defensive greatness. Maybe his offense has another gear. I hope he gives me his thoughts on this, because right now I lean toward 7. Don’t count this as official though, I’m nowhere near ready.

Not sure if we can vote or wait for rebuttals but....
I'm leaning to BBallFan's team

Sure he doesn't have a guaranteed offense like Shaq and Pierce but the amount of playmaking he has is insane. Prime Bird, Ginobili, Pippen + peak Middleton. I think he has the chops defensively to at least put a nuisance towards Shaq with a fast Pippen, Rodman, Mourning frontcourt.

I agree with Dr Spaceman that if ronnymac2 had an elite defensive unit out there then I would feel much better about the effective but maybe less than inspiring Shaq+shooters formula. Spaceman's reference to the '15 Finals is also very apt I think: Cleveland had the best player on the floor, who was also physically dominant. They were up against a more creative offensive team with multiple playmakers. They crushed the pace down, limited turnovers, controlled the glass and almost pulled off an insane upset with far less talent.

The glass-controlling part could be an issue given Rodman on the other side though.

I don't know. In the end, I could see Shaq pulling this off, but as it stands I think it more likely that this swings the other way. That's where I'm leaning to now.

Very close, if Ronnymac had a slightly better backcourt it would be him. I do not know though.

Do you want to change your votes or make them official? I believe that along with Spaceman's/Square's this is the only matchup that hasn't been decided.

[Square]

I agree with Dr Spaceman that if ronnymac2 had an elite defensive unit out there then I would feel much better about the effective but maybe less than inspiring Shaq+shooters formula. Spaceman's reference to the '15 Finals is also very apt I think: Cleveland had the best player on the floor, who was also physically dominant. They were up against a more creative offensive team with multiple playmakers. They crushed the pace down, limited turnovers, controlled the glass and almost pulled off an insane upset with far less talent.

The glass-controlling part could be an issue given Rodman on the other side though.

I don't know. In the end, I could see Shaq pulling this off, but as it stands I think it more likely that this swings the other way. That's where I'm leaning to now.

Do you want to change your votes or make them official? I believe that along with Spaceman's/Square's this is the only matchup that hasn't been decided.

Yes, I'm keeping my vote for BBF7.

[Statlanta]

My final vote is for Bballfan7

[ronnymac2]

Think that about raps it up. Great job BasketballFan7, you built a damn juggernaut and had a tremendous, intelligent writeup to go along with it. I enjoyed the back and forth; that's always my favorite part in these things.

Congrats man!