RealGM

Posted: **Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:57 pm**

For playoff games with >= 30 FGA:

Michael Jordan

39 games
655/1312 FG
38/122 3PT
50 FG%
51 eFG%
3 TOV/G

Lebron James

13 games
191/424 FG
28/84 3PT
45 FG%
48 eFG%
3.8 TOV/G

Kobe

17 games
257/550 FG
33/98 3PT
47 FG%
50 eFG%
3.3 TOV/G

Allen Iverson

19 games
270/620 FG
51/130 3PT
44 FG%
39 3PT%
48 eFG%
2.8 TOV/G

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:25 am**

Come on guys, this is a useful stats bring some discussion.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:33 am**

Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I'm not sure there's much to discuss there beyond MJ took a lot of playoff shots often.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:43 am**

Seriously, I can't thank you enough for proving the evidence that the Lebron fans keep blindly making claims against like Lebron's "clutch" abilities or how he could magically put up 50 points. Keep in mind though - this'll only piss them off and more excuses will be made.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:46 am**

I'd like to get a discussion going here, namely why players like Iverson and Kobe continue to have a reputation of being elite tier scorers, despite their "whole body of work" not shining through in most statistical measure.

For both Iverson and Kobe, my personal opinion is that they both played suboptimal styles and in particular they both took too many shots where they should have passed. This is something most people agree on.

Then why are they lauded as great scorers still? Obviously there is something that the watching public (and experts) have seen during their careers that cause this reputation. Something that doesn't show up easily in pure box score averages and thus is forgotten once the context of the games are lost.

As I prove here, for both Iverson and Kobe, it holds true that they were capable of going out on the biggest scene - the playoffs - and provide very efficient, very high volume scoring if need be.

Kobe averages 45 FG% in his entire playoff career, yet in games where of more than 30+ FGA, he actually averages 47 FG%

Allen Iverson averages 40 FG% in his entire playoff career, yet in games where of more than 30+ FGA, he actually averages 44 FG%

Then of course we have MJ, who being the GOAT, is just on an entirely different level averaging a godly 50 FG% in twice as many 30+ FGA games.

This is where the reputation comes from. The ability to massively take over games by scoring on a very high volume. It's the "take over a game by yourself" eye test comment.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:49 am**

Well said. Truly great scorer "take over", so to speak. We saw Durant do that last year against the Cavs. We saw Shaq do it, Wade do it, and Kobe do it. Lebron? Not so much. He will attain a reputation as skilled volume scorer where he has one of those 40+ playoff games against the Celtics.... multiple times when necessary. Lord knows the Cavs can use that ability when IT is out. But he won't do it, because as I've said he lacks that versatility. Yep, the reoccurring theme of midrange and smooth post game, unstoppable moves, which when practiced and automatic make the game that much easier (KOBE), despite less efficiency. This? Is common sense. But supposedly Lebron can do anything he wants, according to a few of the fans here. Hmmmmm. Why did his FG% raise drastically joining Miami, as I predicted? Why did it drop joining Cleveland? Why does it drop when he has to take more shots? All common sense.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:50 am**

bledredwine wrote:Seriously, I can't thank you enough for proving the evidence that the Lebron fans keep blindly making claims against like Lebron's "clutch" abilities or how he could magically put up 50 points. Keep in mind though - this'll only piss them off and more excuses will be made.

Well, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I'm simply presenting hard facts about MJ and how he quite literally is in a league of his own when it comes to playoff scoring. In every measurable metric.

It's like "the hyperbole about MJ" comments, but they're not hyperbole, MJ literally is simply in tier above everyone else in playoff scoring.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:52 am**

Playoff games with >10 assists:

LeBron - 33 games
28.5 points
11.5 assists
10.2 rebounds
3.5 turnovers
76% win percentage

Jordan - 20 games
33.2 points
11.3 assists
6.1 rebounds
4.3 turnovers
65% win percentage

wpwhwowohh stats. Truly great players make their teammates better. And WIN. Winners. Mentality!

Spoiler:

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:56 am**

dhsilv2 wrote:Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I'm not sure there's much to discuss there beyond MJ took a lot of playoff shots often.

I don't mind adding TS% though I don't think it is really that interesting and it won't change all that much. EFG% already factors in differences in 3 point shooting, so it's just left to who gets to the line more, which of course is also important, but more subject to different rules as well.

Assists? Well, I am not looking at playmaking, strictly high volume scoring. Turnovers yes, I do think that is important.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:00 am**

Jaivl wrote:Playoff games with >10 assists:

LeBron - 33 games
28.5 points
11.5 assists
10.2 rebounds
3.5 turnovers
76% win percentage

Jordan - 20 games
33.2 points
11.3 assists
6.1 rebounds
4.3 turnovers
65% win percentage

wpwhwowohh stats. Truly great players make their teammates better. And WIN. Winners. Mentality!

Spoiler:
Just in case: cherrypicking stats is dumb and you should feel bad. If you thought Kobe fans were bad... Jordan has him beat there too, lol.

What is it you're trying to say here exactly? That Lebron has more games of 10+ assists? That's not a comparison to the OP, which is the efficiency of scoring WHILE shooting more than 30 FGA. Your stat shows that WHILE dishing 10+ assits THEN MJ scores 5 more points with the same assist average. The win percentage is entirely meaningless considering we don't know the opposition strength.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:03 am**

Long2s wrote:The win percentage is entirely meaningless considering we don't know the opposition strength.

Ahhh, so NOW context matters.

Data PROVES that LeBron is the best team player. Deal with it.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:04 am**

Long2's, you have a gift for finding stats. I'd love to see a comparison of midrange game, especially in the finals. That said, no problem if not. I imagine that takes a lot of work.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:05 am**

bledredwine wrote:Long2's, you have a gift for finding stats. I'd love to see a comparison of midrange game, especially in the finals. That said, no problem if not. I imagine that takes a lot of work.

I just updated with turnovers, some might find it surprising.

Though to be fair, Lebron has the most assists and the best TOV/AST ratio, which is to be expected.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:06 am**

Jaivl wrote:
Long2s wrote:The win percentage is entirely meaningless considering we don't know the opposition strength.

Ahhh, so NOW context matters.

Data PROVES that LeBron is the best team player. Deal with it.

You're seriously using win percentage when Jordan had garbage against elite eastern playoff teams? Can you name any of Jordan's supporting cast other than Pippen in the 80s without googling? Lebron's east has been a cakewalk. We all know that. Jordan didn't form a super team, he faced them. And he never ran point during the Bulls two three-peats, which would greatly favor Jordan if he had. So yes, context.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:08 am**

bledredwine wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
Long2s wrote:The win percentage is entirely meaningless considering we don't know the opposition strength.

Ahhh, so NOW context matters.

Data PROVES that LeBron is the best team player. Deal with it.

You're seriously using win percentage when Jordan had garbage against elite eastern playoff teams? Can you name any of Jordan's supporting cast other than Pippen in the 80s without googling? Lebron's east has been a cakewalk. We all know that. CONTEXT.

I'm guessing you are too young to have watched peak LeBron play. Do yourself a favor and torrent some games. Passes like Magic, finishes like Shaq, defends like Kawhi. The best WINNER. Context = EXCUSES.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:10 am**

Long2s wrote:
bledredwine wrote:Seriously, I can't thank you enough for proving the evidence that the Lebron fans keep blindly making claims against like Lebron's "clutch" abilities or how he could magically put up 50 points. Keep in mind though - this'll only piss them off and more excuses will be made.

Well, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I'm simply presenting hard facts about MJ and how he quite literally is in a league of his own when it comes to playoff scoring. In every measurable metric.

It's like "the hyperbole about MJ" comments, but they're not hyperbole, MJ literally is simply in tier above everyone else in playoff scoring.

Yep. Agreed. That's why it's ridiculous when these guys are acting like I'm outrageous for saying 88 Jordan would clearly be the best, or that he was another tier of scorer - hmmm even stats say so, despite the era he faced and lack of open court for guards. As if he doesn't have his reputation for a reason. As if Kobe didn't wear 24 and Lebron 23 for a reason..... hmmmm

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:13 am**

dhsilv2 wrote:Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I agree, though I think that might defeat the purpose :wink:

. >30 FGA seems a somewhat arbitrary thing to fixate on, too (not always a good thing for one individual fire away so often, doesn't note whether it was a win or loss, a good game overall or not, the playoff situation, etc).
I'll try something a bit more complete and little less arbitrary.....

MJ in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (46 games)
11.89 FGM/25.22 FGA (47.16%)
0.89 3PM/2.80 3PA (31.78%)
48.92% eFG%
.371 FTr
7.54 FTM/9.35 FTA (80.70%)
54.92% TS%
32.22 ppg
6.37 rpg
5.76 apg
2.09 spg
0.98 bpg
3.30 topg
116.92 ORtg/107.46 DRtg (+9.46)
Avg GameScore 23.47
Team record: 32-14 (.696)

Kobe in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs, excluding '97 and '98 (54 games)
9.72 FGM/21.76 FGA (44.68%)
1.69 3PM/4.67 3PA (36.11%)
48.55% eFG%
.350 FTr
6.13 FTM/7.61 FTA (80.54%)
54.28% TS%
27.26 ppg
5.63 rpg
4.81 apg
1.56 spg
0.78 bpg
3.00 topg
110.06 ORtg/108.17 DRtg (+1.89)
Avg GameScore 18.71
Team Record: 33-21 (.611)

Lebron in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (53 games)
9.98 FGM/21.15 FGA (47.19%)
1.70 3PM/5.25 3PA (32.37%)
51.20% eFG%
.484 FTr
7.74 FTM/10.25 FTA (75.51%)
57.28% TS%
29.40 ppg
9.77 rpg
7.30 apg
1.68 spg
1.04 bpg
3.74 topg
117.30 ORtg/100.79 DRtg (+16.51)
Avg GameScore 24.05
Team Record: 39-14 (.736)

Sorry, haven't done Iverson.

So there's no question as to source or accusations of fudging the numbers, here's link to the spreadsheet so anyone can double-check the work (games are specified and dated, so easy to reference).

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:25 am**

Jaivl wrote:
bledredwine wrote:You're seriously using win percentage when Jordan had garbage against elite eastern playoff teams? Can you name any of Jordan's supporting cast other than Pippen in the 80s without googling? Lebron's east has been a cakewalk. We all know that. CONTEXT.

I'm guessing you are too young to have watched peak LeBron play. Do yourself a favor and torrent some games. Passes like Magic, finishes like Shaq, defends like Kawhi. The best WINNER. Context = EXCUSES.

lol I lived in cleveland and rooted for Lebron as he quit on us against the Celtics. I've seen plenty. BUT, other than the Celtics, he only faced one star at a time in the east. His high assisting games are mostly recent, which YES has been against a garbage east. Jordan's high assisting games? When he had a very difficult east. He didn't play point later when the Bulls had more than trash.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:25 am**

trex_8063 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I agree, though I think that might defeat the purpose . >30 FGA seems a somewhat arbitrary thing, too (not always a good thing for one individual fire away so often).
I'll try something a bit more complete and little less arbitrary.....

MJ in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (46 games)
11.89 FGM/25.22 FGA (47.16%)
0.89 3PM/2.80 3PA (31.78%)
48.92% eFG%
.371 FTr
54.92% TS%
32.22 ppg
6.37 rpg
5.76 apg
2.09 spg
0.98 bpg
3.30 topg
116.92 ORtg/107.46 DRtg (+9.46)
Avg GameScore 23.47
Team record: 32-14 (.696)

Kobe in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs, excluding '97 and '98 (54 games)
9.72 FGM/21.76 FGA (44.68%)
1.69 3PM/4.67 3PA (36.11%)
48.55% eFG%
.350 FTr
54.28% TS%
27.26 ppg
5.63 rpg
4.81 apg
1.56 spg
0.78 bpg
3.00 topg
110.06 ORtg/108.17 DRtg (+1.89)
Avg GameScore 18.71
Team Record: 33-21 (.611)

Lebron in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (53 games)
9.98 FGM/21.15 FGA (47.19%)
1.70 3PM/5.25 3PA (32.37%)
51.20% eFG%
.484 FTr
57.28% TS%
29.40 ppg
9.77 rpg
7.30 apg
1.68 spg
1.04 bpg
3.74 topg
117.30 ORtg/100.79 DRtg (+16.51)
Avg GameScore 24.05
Team Record: 39-14 (.736)

Sorry, haven't done Iverson.

So there's no accusations of fudging the numbers, here's link to the spreadsheet so anyone can double-check my work (games are specified, so easy to reference).

Spoiler:

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:28 am**

Long2s wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I'm not sure there's much to discuss there beyond MJ took a lot of playoff shots often.

I don't mind adding TS% though I don't think it is really that interesting and it won't change all that much. EFG% already factors in differences in 3 point shooting, so it's just left to who gets to the line more, which of course is also important, but more subject to different rules as well.

Assists? Well, I am not looking at playmaking, strictly high volume scoring. Turnovers yes, I do think that is important.

With Kobe and MJ who are shooting guards, sure volume scoring doesn't care as much about passing. But the question I risk think is, are they shooting more or just dominating the ball more? Lebron being a point kinda changes the dynamic though. Still assists give us a better idea of if they're dominating the ball or quickly shooting or kinda being the old "blackhole", all be it it not conclusive. That's actually why I want turnovers. Same with free throw, it shows us how they're playing. Are they drawing contact or just taking jumpers?

RealGM

High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron

Re: High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron