RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 (Billy Cunningham)

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RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 (Billy Cunningham) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:52 pm

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Chris Paul
24. Bob Pettit
25. George Mikan
26. Steve Nash
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Kevin Durant
29. Stephen Curry
30. Scottie Pippen
31. John Havlicek
32. Elgin Baylor
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Rick Barry
35. Gary Payton
36. Artis Gilmore
37. Jason Kidd
38. Walt Frazier
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Kevin McHale
41. George Gervin
42. Reggie Miller
43. Paul Pierce
44. Dwight Howard
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Bob Cousy
47. Ray Allen
48. Pau Gasol
49. Wes Unseld
50. Robert Parish
51. Russell Westbrook
52. Alonzo Mourning
53. Dikembe Mutombo
54. Manu Ginobili
55. Chauncey Billups
56. Willis Reed
57. Bob Lanier
58. Allen Iverson
59. Adrian Dantley
60. Dave Cowens
61. Elvin Hayes
62. Dominique Wilkins
63. Vince Carter
64. Alex English
65. Tracy McGrady
66. James Harden
67. Nate Thurmond
68. Sam Jones
69. Kevin Johnson
70. Bob McAdoo
71. Sidney Moncrief
72. Paul Arizin
73. Grant Hill
74. Bobby Jones
75. Chris Bosh
76. Tony Parker
77. Shawn Marion
78. Hal Greer
79. Ben Wallace
80. Dan Issel
81. Larry Nance
82. James Worthy
83. Chris Webber
84. Rasheed Wallace
85. Dennis Rodman
86. Horace Grant
87. Elton Brand
88. Terry Porter
89. Maurice Cheeks
90. Carmelo Anthony
91. Tim Hardaway
92. Jack Sikma
93. ????

Go.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:54 pm

Vote: Mel Daniels
Alternate: Jerry Lucas (Sharman, Howell, Beaty, Jerry Lucas, Dumars, or one of the SFs if someone can compare Connie Hawkins, Chet Walker, Marques Johnson, Kawhi Leonard are also possibles)


Why Mel Daniels? It may be winner's bias, but when I see a team win multiple championships, I tend to look more closely at the makeup of the teams to see WHY they are winning. I don't automatically value big minute contributors to championships, I have been down on Bob Cousy's role on those Celtic titles for example. However, I do value the championships a lot and how a team got there. Indiana was the Boston Celtics of the ABA. They didn't have nearly the big name stars of Kentucky (Gilmore, Issel, Dampier), New York (Erving, Kenon), or even San Antonio (Gervin, Silas, Paultz) but they won the most and the most consistently. Breaking those teams down, Slick Leonard was a competent coach but had little success elsewhere and wasn't that highly regarded for either his game management or his player development. Their guards were pretty weak. Freddie Lewis a below average PG, not much of a distributor and only an average shooter and defender, while their 2 guards changed regularly and were unimpressive. Roger Brown at SF was a nice scorer with good range, great handles, and enough variety that his nickname was "the man of a thousand moves." He was definitely a key factor but he didn't play much defense or add much rebounding or playmaking. The PF were Bob Netolicky (the self proclaimed Joe Namath of the ABA) who was another excellent scorer and decent rebounder with no interest in defense then they replaced him with George McGinnis, another volume scorer (less efficient) and a great rebounder who generated a lot of assists, and turnovers. But for me, looking at this franchise's success, it was all built around Mel Daniels in the middle. A good scorer (consistently close to 20 a game on above average efficiency), great rebounder (usually among top in league), and powerful defender (better positionally than in help defense) who set the tone of the team and acted as their enforcer. His career was short and corresponds almost exactly with the rise and fall of the Pacers as a force in the ABA (his rookie year, he apparently shot a lot of long jump shots and had poor efficiency for Minnesota, which Leonard immediately banned when he came to Indiana).


Mel Daniels is certainly the only multiple MVP winner left. Nobody else changed or dominanted on both ends to the same degree for more than 1-1.5 years (Walton, Hawkins). Daniels was the best player on two championship teams plus a willing support role on a third championship though in a weak league (probably better than the pre-Russell 50s though). I tend to value defense, particularly for big men, and Mel was basically the original Alonzo Mourning with more rebounding but less shotblocking or, to use dhsilv2's comp, Moses Malone (without the longevity of course). He was a 1st round NBA pick (the first to sign with the ABA) and in the NBA would probably have been one of the best centers as well, not in the Jabbar league, but contending with Unseld/Cowens for the rebounding leaderboard and 2nd team All-Defense with good scoring (but poor playmaking). The two MVPs show he was valued above his box scores.

It is reasonable to compare Daniels to Kawhi Leonard as they have similar length of career by now. Kawhi brings excellent wing defense early on, but Daniels was probably more impactful defensively as intimidating defensive centers tend to be (especially in the 20th century). Kawhi's defense is still good and his scoring has blown up, a clearly better option than Daniels; also clearly a better passer. Daniels brings rebounding and toughness at a level equal to guys like Wes Unseld or Dave Cowens who are already in from his era (other league). I think the impact Daniels brought was appreciably higher in his league than that Kawhi has in the current league, enough to overcome the much weaker league he played in. Connie Hawkins would be another early ABA guy, higher peak than Daniels, shorter career though he did have a 1st team All-NBA between his first and second major knee injury. More of a career than Walton, less than Daniels. With careers this short, the difference is magnified. Of the bunch, I rate Daniels the highest.

Lucas, early Kevin Love type that played a long career. Announcers used to call 20-25 footers, "Lucas Layups," as the Royals would station him outside to let Oscar bully people in the paint. Great rebounder, super smart, comes across as a bit of a "rain man" type with his memorizing phone books and needing to know his exact stats. Played well as a role player on the Knicks post prime.

Getting mentioned by position:
PG Mookie, DJ, Archibald
SG Sharman, Dumars, Lou Hudson, Richmond, Hornacek
SF Chet Walker, Kawhi, Marques Johnson, Bernard King, Billy Cunningham, Wilkes, Dandridge, Mullin, Hagan
PF Amare, Connie Hawkins, Bailey Howell, Paul Silas, Kemp, McGinnis, Jerry Lucas, Buck Williams, DeBusshcere
C Mel Daniels, Mark Gasol, Bellamy, Yao. Divac, Zelmo, Johnston
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#3 » by trex_8063 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:07 pm

1st vote: [tentatively going with] Chet Walker
Not 100% set on this; may decide to switch back to Kawhi for this spot. But Walker's a reasonable-length (and durable) career of providing moderate-high(ish) scoring on good efficiency [mostly with his devastating mid-range game--->in his final 10 seasons he was collectively 47.8% FG's despite the VAST majority of those shots coming in the mid-range; that's elite in any era]; also a fairly respectable rebounding SF, and a reputation of sound defense makes him a solid candidate here.
Key piece of one of the greatest teams ever. Teams in Chicago had somewhat underwhelming playoff success, but to be fair: the playoff structure at the time was weird, and a high seeding didn't always get you an easy first round match-up.

Again, I may or may not switch back to Kawhi for this pick, too. I'm sorta on the fence.


2nd vote: Kawhi Leonard
Longevity lacking, but aside from Bill Walton, he's the highest peak left on the table. He was a good role player in his rookie year and a borderline All-Star by his 2nd season; only got better from there. In fact, aside from Walton, Kawhi's got TWO seasons that are better than any one peak year of anyone left on the table, imo.
He's been scoring elite level volume on elite level efficiency, and ultra-elite level turnover economy (in light of combined scoring and playmaking). Add to that decent rebounding from the SF position and his defensive presence and some big-time playoff performances.........well, his six seasons feel like plenty to award him a spot on the list.


Other guys I'd be at least semi-comfortable with include Walt Bellamy, Dave DeBusschere, Joe Dumars, Shawn Kemp, Marques Johnson, George McGinnis, and yes pen----even Mel Daniels. Guys like Jeff Hornacek, Vlade Divac, Cliff Hagan, Jerry Lucas, Dennis Johnson, Neil Johnston all worth mentions (or potentially even traction) here, too [imo].
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#4 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:39 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Other guys I'd be at least semi-comfortable with include Walt Bellamy, Dave DeBusschere, Joe Dumars, Shawn Kemp, Marques Johnson, George McGinnis, and yes pen----even Mel Daniels. Guys like Jeff Hornacek, Vlade Divac, Cliff Hagan, Jerry Lucas, Dennis Johnson, Neil Johnston all worth mentions (or potentially even traction) here, too [imo].


I agree those are all guys who deserve a look as we close out the project, but I don’t see much separation between them and my 2 votes from the last thread (tiny and cunningham). I realize you may have an issue with tiny’s longevity as a star (although I think his time with Boston is pretty valuable), but cunningham is pretty similar to lucas, for example in career value.

Or were those players just a handful off the top of your head?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#5 » by Outside » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:01 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Vote: Mel Daniels
Alternate: Jerry Lucas (Sharman, Howell, Beaty, Jerry Lucas, Dumars, or one of the SFs if someone can compare Connie Hawkins, Chet Walker, Marques Johnson, Kawhi Leonard are also possibles)


...

Getting mentioned by position:
PG Mookie, DJ, Archibald
SG Sharman, Dumars, Lou Hudson, Richmond,
SF Chet Walker, Kawhi, Marques Johnson, Bernard King, Billy Cunningham, Wilkes, Dandridge
PF Amare, Connie Hawkins, Bailey Howell, Paul Silas, Kemp, McGinnis, Jerry Lucas, Buck Williams
C Mel Daniels, Mark Gasol, Bellamy, Yao. Divac, Zelmo,

Just wanted to acknowledge your steadfast commitment to Mel Daniels. Sorry to say, I have him outside my top 100. I recognize his production, but I downgrade him for longevity and the weakness of the ABA (almost everyone who moved from the ABA to the NBA took a serious hit to their stats). The longevity is the bigger issue for me.

I think his rebounding is the skill that would've transferred best, but I don't see enough in the rest of his game to edge ahead of other candidates we still have on the board. But who knows, I might vote for him in the last spot or two based on your passionate advocacy since I don't have anyone I feel that strongly about.

Brief comments for the others you listed...

Mookie -- in the mix
DJ -- interesting that he hasn't generated more support
Tiny -- always liked him, need to dive further into the arguments for him
Sharman -- second tier guy from the early days, probably unjustly downgraded for his era, doubt he'll get in
Dumars -- I really like him and expect to vote for him at some point soon
Lou Hudson -- like him, but probably just outside the top 100; my guess is that he suffers from lack of familiarity
Mitch Richmond -- in the mix
Chet Walker -- in the mix
Kawhi -- nowhere near the longevity needed to get my vote, overall or prime
Marques Johnson -- probably in the mix
Bernard King -- I want him to be in the mix, such a dominant force at his best, but the stats aren't as impressive as the eye test
Billy Cunningham -- every time someone brings him up, I think, "isn't he in already?" but nope, he's not in yet
Jamaal Wilkes -- probably on the outside looking in
Bob Dandridge -- needs a look, my guess is that he's underrated, but we'll see what the stats say
Amare -- I'll listen to arguments, but I'd have to be convinced
Connie Hawkins -- deserves a look for these last spots
Bailey Howell -- not convinced he's top-100 worthy
Paul Silas -- championship-quality defender, rebounder, and intangibles guy who probably doesn't have the stats to get in
Kemp -- not a long enough prime for me, his post-Seattle seasons are empty calories, he's a career that should've been much more
McGinnis -- I have an eye-test bias against him, always thought he was selfish
Jerry Lucas -- has consistently made these lists based on scoring and rebounding, will be interesting to see if he makes it
Buck Williams -- need to give him a closer look
Mark Gasol -- not in the mix for me
Walt Bellamy -- has the stats, not sure that he has the impact
Yao -- doesn't have the longevity or even the peak within the few years he played
Vlade Divac -- the argument was made that he's similar stats-wise to Sikma, but I see enough of a difference that Sikma belongs but Vlade doesn't
Zelmo Beaty -- not in the mix for me
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#6 » by trex_8063 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:31 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Other guys I'd be at least semi-comfortable with include Walt Bellamy, Dave DeBusschere, Joe Dumars, Shawn Kemp, Marques Johnson, George McGinnis, and yes pen----even Mel Daniels. Guys like Jeff Hornacek, Vlade Divac, Cliff Hagan, Jerry Lucas, Dennis Johnson, Neil Johnston all worth mentions (or potentially even traction) here, too [imo].


I agree those are all guys who deserve a look as we close out the project, but I don’t see much separation between them and my 2 votes from the last thread (tiny and cunningham). I realize you may have an issue with tiny’s longevity as a star (although I think his time with Boston is pretty valuable), but cunningham is pretty similar to lucas, for example in career value.

Or were those players just a handful off the top of your head?


I kinda just stopped at the [tentative] #107 on my ATL. I could have continued listing names, which would have immediately included Chris Mullin, Bailey Howell, Billy Cunningham, Bill Sharman, and Tiny Archibald.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#7 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:59 pm

Anyone who voted Jack Sikma in the last one, I have to seriously question how Vlade or Laimbeer are not 2 of your next 4-5. Their resumes are nearly identical. Unless you place a lot of value on being an allstar I suppose (really the only thing that separated him).
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#8 » by Owly » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:15 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:Anyone who voted Jack Sikma in the last one, I have to seriously question how Vlade or Laimbeer are not 2 of your next 4-5. Their resumes are nearly identical. Unless you place a lot of value on being an allstar I suppose (really the only thing that separated him).

Well at this point it's unlikely we'd see any one person's next 5 (so you wouldn't necessarily find out). But given the narrowness of margins at this point I don't see that having a number of people between them is unreasonable. Seeing them as having vastly different career values would be more ... I don't want to say unreasonable ... something you'd like to see good reasoning behind, if it weren't to be dismissed.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#9 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:18 pm

Owly wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Anyone who voted Jack Sikma in the last one, I have to seriously question how Vlade or Laimbeer are not 2 of your next 4-5. Their resumes are nearly identical. Unless you place a lot of value on being an allstar I suppose (really the only thing that separated him).

Well at this point it's unlikely we'd see any one person's next 5 (so you wouldn't necessarily find out). But given the narrowness of margins at this point I don't see that having a number of people between them is unreasonable. Seeing them as having vastly different career values would be more ... I don't want to say unreasonable ... something you'd like to see good reasoning behind, if it weren't to be dismissed.


Think more, I'm asking them the question as I seriously don't see how there's a enough room to slide people in. I saw a list with roughly 15-20 people that didn't include Laimbeer for example. So that's a bit more than 5. Trex also went out rather far.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#10 » by trex_8063 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:37 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Owly wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Anyone who voted Jack Sikma in the last one, I have to seriously question how Vlade or Laimbeer are not 2 of your next 4-5. Their resumes are nearly identical. Unless you place a lot of value on being an allstar I suppose (really the only thing that separated him).

Well at this point it's unlikely we'd see any one person's next 5 (so you wouldn't necessarily find out). But given the narrowness of margins at this point I don't see that having a number of people between them is unreasonable. Seeing them as having vastly different career values would be more ... I don't want to say unreasonable ... something you'd like to see good reasoning behind, if it weren't to be dismissed.


Think more, I'm asking them the question as I seriously don't see how there's a enough room to slide people in. I saw a list with roughly 15-20 people that didn't include Laimbeer for example. So that's a bit more than 5. Trex also went out rather far.


"Nearly identical" is stretching things, at least for Laimbeer, imo. I'd done a bit of a comp at the end of the last thread, and I thought it insinuated Laimbeer was a small [but clear] step back of the other two. Offensively compared to Sikma, he appears a marginally less capable scorer (despite playing almost his entire career next to a playmaker who was definitely better than any Sikma ever had as a teammate), a clearly lesser [by at least a small margin] passing/playmaking big, while Sikma also appeared more relevant as a floor-stretching big. Laimbeer was a slightly better offensive rebounder. Overall, I'd award at least a tiny edge to Sikma offensively.

Defensively, I considered it more or less a wash.

And then there's a small, but certainly very very clear, longevity edge to Sikma. Let's call all other "legacy points" (titles, accolades, etc), for what they're worth, a wash.


That all combines, imo, to a very distinct [though not huge] gap between their respective careers. And given the microscopic margins between adjacent places, an actual distinct or notable gap can amount to several (even dozens) of places.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#11 » by penbeast0 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:39 pm

I didn't vote for him but I can see Sikma over either Laimbeer or Divac even without looking at awards. And, if you are looking at awards, Mel Daniels in his prime has two MVPs, scores more, rebounds more, and is more physically intimidating. Shorter career, worse league, and not the passing admittedly, but contemporaries considered one the best of the best in the league he played in and neither Divac nor Laimbeer ever was considered close to that.

1. Versatility. He's the only one with the footspeed to play forward as well as center.
2. A bit more scoring. Sikma had 5 consecutive seasons over 18ppg. Laimbeer tops out around 17, Divac has one season of 16 and no others where he reaches 15.
3. Style. While Sikma some seriously bad 70s/80s hair (check out the blonde perm), he played a very smart positional game and looked fluid up until his knees fell apart. Laimbeer and Divac were big gawks who were despised for their defensive styles (dirtiest player in the NBA; the Euroflopper).
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#12 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:46 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I didn't vote for him but I can see Sikma over either Laimbeer or Divac even without looking at awards. And, if you are looking at awards, Mel Daniels in his prime has two MVPs, scores more, rebounds more, and is more physically intimidating. Shorter career, worse league, and not the passing admittedly, but contemporaries considered one the best of the best in the league he played in and neither Divac nor Laimbeer ever was considered close to that.

1. Versatility. He's the only one with the footspeed to play forward as well as center.
2. A bit more scoring. Sikma had 5 consecutive seasons over 18ppg. Laimbeer tops out around 17, Divac has one season of 16 and no others where he reaches 15.
3. Style. While Sikma some seriously bad 70s/80s hair (check out the blonde perm), he played a very smart positional game and looked fluid up until his knees fell apart. Laimbeer and Divac were big gawks who were despised for their defensive styles (dirtiest player in the NBA; the Euroflopper).


Sorry but Vlade's big man passing and ability to get shaq to sing songs about him easily pushes him to the lead on style. Not even close :)

And Laimbeer in that era could play the 4 or 5 depending on the matchup. You think an Oakley type gives him foot speed issues?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#13 » by Outside » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:30 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Owly wrote:Well at this point it's unlikely we'd see any one person's next 5 (so you wouldn't necessarily find out). But given the narrowness of margins at this point I don't see that having a number of people between them is unreasonable. Seeing them as having vastly different career values would be more ... I don't want to say unreasonable ... something you'd like to see good reasoning behind, if it weren't to be dismissed.


Think more, I'm asking them the question as I seriously don't see how there's a enough room to slide people in. I saw a list with roughly 15-20 people that didn't include Laimbeer for example. So that's a bit more than 5. Trex also went out rather far.


"Nearly identical" is stretching things, at least for Laimbeer, imo. I'd done a bit of a comp at the end of the last thread, and I thought it insinuated Laimbeer was a small [but clear] step back of the other two. Offensively compared to Sikma, he appears a marginally less capable scorer (despite playing almost his entire career next to a playmaker who was definitely better than any Sikma ever had as a teammate), a clearly lesser [by at least a small margin] passing/playmaking big, while Sikma also appeared more relevant as a floor-stretching big. Laimbeer was a slightly better offensive rebounder. Overall, I'd award at least a tiny edge to Sikma offensively.

Defensively, I considered it more or less a wash.

And then there's a small, but certainly very very clear, longevity edge to Sikma. Let's call all other "legacy points" (titles, accolades, etc), for what they're worth, a wash.


That all combines, imo, to a very distinct [though not huge] gap between their respective careers. And given the microscopic margins between adjacent places, an actual distinct or notable gap can amount to several (even dozens) of places.

penbeast0 wrote:2. A bit more scoring. Sikma had 5 consecutive seasons over 18ppg. Laimbeer tops out around 17, Divac has one season of 16 and no others where he reaches 15.
3. Style. While Sikma some seriously bad 70s/80s hair (check out the blonde perm), he played a very smart positional game and looked fluid up until his knees fell apart. Laimbeer and Divac were big gawks who were despised for their defensive styles (dirtiest player in the NBA; the Euroflopper).

The above generally align with my takes as well. These are the main areas I considered.

Scoring. Sikma has a significant advantage in scoring average and totals.

Shooting efficiency. Sikma is last here, but there's not much separation.

Rebounding. Sikma has a slight edge over Laimbeer and a significant one over Vlade in RPG and total rebounds. Laimbeer has a slight edge in rebound percentage, with Vlade again placing third.

Defense. Sikma was the best overall defender of the three. Others may argue that Laimbeer's dirty play and Vlade's floppery helped their teams win, but I downgrade them both for it. Thuggery has been the tactic of those without the skill or acumen to play proper defense. Vlade's flopping is a double-edged sword -- it benefits his team when he gets the call, but all the times he didn't get the call, he left the defense open to easy scores. From an aesthetics standpoint, I don't want to give credit to players who attempt to gain benefit from non-basketball plays.

Playmaking. Vlade has a reputation as a good passer, but his APG and assist rate don't show him being significantly better than Sikma, and his higher turnover rate hurts him. Laimbeer trails badly in this area.

Postseason. The RS differences between the three generally hold up in PS stats.

The differences aren't huge, but Sikma has the edge in most of them. Given how close players are at this point, any clear separation can mean 10 spots or more in the ranking.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#14 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:55 pm

I’m now reminded that I have zero respect for Laimbeer. There’s an interview with Bird where he said Laimbeer routinely would put his foot out under Bird when he went up for a jumper in hopes that he’d come down on it. Of course, for anyone who’s played basketball coming down on someone else’s foot is the easiest way to get a serious ankle injury.

Bird went on to say that he did it to Laimbeer once, and Laimbeer never did it again. That kind of play doesn’t belong in basketball at any level.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#15 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:23 pm

Outside wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Think more, I'm asking them the question as I seriously don't see how there's a enough room to slide people in. I saw a list with roughly 15-20 people that didn't include Laimbeer for example. So that's a bit more than 5. Trex also went out rather far.


"Nearly identical" is stretching things, at least for Laimbeer, imo. I'd done a bit of a comp at the end of the last thread, and I thought it insinuated Laimbeer was a small [but clear] step back of the other two. Offensively compared to Sikma, he appears a marginally less capable scorer (despite playing almost his entire career next to a playmaker who was definitely better than any Sikma ever had as a teammate), a clearly lesser [by at least a small margin] passing/playmaking big, while Sikma also appeared more relevant as a floor-stretching big. Laimbeer was a slightly better offensive rebounder. Overall, I'd award at least a tiny edge to Sikma offensively.

Defensively, I considered it more or less a wash.

And then there's a small, but certainly very very clear, longevity edge to Sikma. Let's call all other "legacy points" (titles, accolades, etc), for what they're worth, a wash.


That all combines, imo, to a very distinct [though not huge] gap between their respective careers. And given the microscopic margins between adjacent places, an actual distinct or notable gap can amount to several (even dozens) of places.

penbeast0 wrote:2. A bit more scoring. Sikma had 5 consecutive seasons over 18ppg. Laimbeer tops out around 17, Divac has one season of 16 and no others where he reaches 15.
3. Style. While Sikma some seriously bad 70s/80s hair (check out the blonde perm), he played a very smart positional game and looked fluid up until his knees fell apart. Laimbeer and Divac were big gawks who were despised for their defensive styles (dirtiest player in the NBA; the Euroflopper).

The above generally align with my takes as well. These are the main areas I considered.

Scoring. Sikma has a significant advantage in scoring average and totals.

Shooting efficiency. Sikma is last here, but there's not much separation.

Rebounding. Sikma has a slight edge over Laimbeer and a significant one over Vlade in RPG and total rebounds. Laimbeer has a slight edge in rebound percentage, with Vlade again placing third.

Defense. Sikma was the best overall defender of the three. Others may argue that Laimbeer's dirty play and Vlade's floppery helped their teams win, but I downgrade them both for it. Thuggery has been the tactic of those without the skill or acumen to play proper defense. Vlade's flopping is a double-edged sword -- it benefits his team when he gets the call, but all the times he didn't get the call, he left the defense open to easy scores. From an aesthetics standpoint, I don't want to give credit to players who attempt to gain benefit from non-basketball plays.

Playmaking. Vlade has a reputation as a good passer, but his APG and assist rate don't show him being significantly better than Sikma, and his higher turnover rate hurts him. Laimbeer trails badly in this area.

Postseason. The RS differences between the three generally hold up in PS stats.

The differences aren't huge, but Sikma has the edge in most of them. Given how close players are at this point, any clear separation can mean 10 spots or more in the ranking.


There is a very significant advantage for Vlade as a shot blocker in this group. He is really the only one of the group who appears to have real impact there. As for assists due to Vlade playing fewer minutes his assists per game might not reflect his actual passing. Vlade has 7 real seasons (ignoring his last year with 15 games played) better than Sikma's second best. It's a pretty clear edge imo.

Laimbeer's value it more measured in WS which is giving him credit for the Piston's defense. My feeling is that's fair, he was the guy I always felt was the biggest driver. Now if you want to penalize him for being dirty, that's your call. I don't have an issue if that's an issue for you.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#16 » by pandrade83 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:38 am

I'm going to dedicate the majority of this space to touting my alternate candidate because I'm candidly not sure he'll get in at all - and I think it would be worse if the alternate didn't get in than if my primary missed. By Spot #95, I'll flip this if Mookie isn't in by then because of the historical value of the latter player.

Primary: Mookie Blaylock
Alternate: Bill Walton



I think we all understand Bill Walton's peak. But it's another to see it.



Walton finished 13th in the most recent RGM Peaks project - the next 10 players behind him:

Julius Erving
Oscar Robertson
Dwayne Wade
Steph Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
Jerry West
Kevin Durant
Patrick Ewing
Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant

That's quite a list of people to be ahead of - and so we have to keep that value in mind.

The most common rebuttal I'm going to hear is "That's great, but it is just the one year."

But if you dig deeper, you see he offers more value than "just the one year". It's certainly problematic to my case that these years are not going to be consecutive, but let's look at years where I think he offered some meaningful value. I'm going to omit '77 from this because we're all familiar with it.

'76 - Portland goes 26-25 with; 11-20 without. Even though Walton isn't yet the defensive force he'd become, Portland is 6th in DRtg. Walton averages 16.1 pts-13.4 reb-4.3 assists + 1.6 blocks. He does this despite logging just 33 mpg. He was healthy at the end of the year so it's likely he could have played in the playoffs.
'78 - Portland goes 48-10 with; 10-14 without! That's the difference between a 68 win pace & a 34 win pace. Walton is the anchor of a super team - and this is after the merger. Walton wins MVP and the impact on winning is quite pronounced. Walton averages 19-13-5-2.5 blocks this year on 52% shooting. It's unfortunate that the injury robs him of what otherwise would have likely been a Portland title - but this year is impactful for the regular season.

In '84 & '85, Walton plays 75% of the games for the Clippers. It's not well remembered but he's still effective - even the limited clips we have of that time support it.



From a scouting standpoint, Walton still possesses stellar passing capabilities & excellent rim protection. You'll see that his ability to get up & down the court is diminished considerably - his quickness isn't as strong as the Portland tape, but he's still an effective player. The diminished mobility robs him of some defensive impact - but while on court he's impactful.

In '84 the Clippers are 23-32 with, 7-20 without - a 34 win pace with & 21 win pace without. Walton is a 12-9-3 player plus nearly 2 blocks per game in just 26 mpg with a TS% of 57%.
In '85 it's a similar story - the Clippers are a 33 win pace team with Walton & a 22 win pace team without.

Then in '86 he joins Boston and becomes a key member of one of the teams in the GOAT discussion.

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His playing time is limited - just 19 mpg - but the rate statistics are impressive: 14-13-4-2.5 blocks on 61% TS.

All told, he has what this board determines is the 13th best peak, plus 5 more strong impact - if limited minute years.

It's not just the magical '77 campaign.

I mentioned at the top if we get to slot 96 and Mookie isn't in that I'm going to flip it and here's why - and this is how I'll wrap up.

Pretend that you have a full business day to cover the history of professional basketball with an alien. What topics would you cover? What names would you mention?

Go through our list starting at around slot #65. Do those guys get covered? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I promise you that Bill Walton gets discussed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blaylock is a special player , who in my opinion, suffers from a historical standpoint by playing for also-ran Hawks in the 90's. Because he isn't a strong scoring point guard, he's not thought of fondly. But he is one of few point guards who really moved the needle defensively and at the least has a credible argument in the GOAT Defensive PG discussion. In addition to stellar defense, he is an excellent all-around contributor who was a strong rebounder for his position, above average playmaker for others & in the years where he shot well, is a true threat. This is captured by very high VORP Scores that saw him place in the Top 10 in VORP 5 times.

NPI RAPM corroborates what the Box Score tells us - giving him excellent marks in his prime years that we have data for. My longer post about Blaylock is below.

From a regular season standpoint, Blaylock should have gone in some time ago - everything we know about impact loves him - both from a box score & RAPM standpoint.

In the Box Score

-Blaylock leads a pair of 55 W+ Atlanta teams in WS, VORP & PER - PLUS he leads two more playoff teams in all of those metrics in both '95 & '96
-He finishes Top 10 in VORP an impressive 5 times and is Top 10 in DWS (very hard for a guard to do) 4 times.
-He has a pair of double digit WS years to his name including a relatively high peak of 12.5 in '97; this peak is higher than anything Carmelo Anthony achieved, for example.

Impact
-NPI RAPM grades him as a Top 10 player the first two years we have data - it's likely that it would have seen him as having a comparable impact in '94-'96 as well based on how his metrics in the other years stack up.
-Even in '99 - when Blaylock is exiting his prime, RAPM still views him as a decisively high impact player in a wonky season (lock-out - only 50 games - some sample size issues)
-In '98 when he misses 12 games, the Hawks go 44-26 with (52 win pace) & 6-6 without (41 win pace)

The three knocks on him are longevity - he has 72 career WS which isn't great at this juncture - & a lack of memorable playoff moments along with weak shooting efficiency. The shooting efficiency is partially off-set by helping you win the possession battle - more steals than TOs, strong TO economy in general & strong positional rebounding.

WRT longevity, he does have 5 outstanding seasons of play ('94-'98) where it's more likely than not his overall impact is that of an all-star with a 2nd team All-NBA caliber play. His post/pre-prime seasons are a little short on impact & the prime duration is relatively short.

On playoffs - he is poor in '93, '99 & '95 - suffering steep drop-offs all 3 years. Career playoff #"s of 47% TS on 14 PPG is not great - I don't want to come off as letting him off the hook here. He does have some strong defensive performances - one I'll highlight specifically is his performance on Jordan in the '97 2nd round. Jordan was held to 3 PPG less than his rs average on a fairly soft 51% TS. The video clip below shows aggressive & strong defense - both man to man & help throughout the series.

He generally maintains his stealing prowess, rebounding & passing in the playoffs - the biggest hit is to his scoring & offensive efficiency. Although the video I post below does highlight robust defensive impact, you will see a horrible shot attempt at the 14 second mark - and that's one of the things I remember about him - poor judgment on shooting . . . which may be exhibited in his personal life as he is serving a 5 year prison sentence.

At any rate - most players being elected at this stage have fairly steep playoff drop-offs, so I don't view it as comparatively damning, but it needs mentioned. I think if he played for a different franchise, he'd be in by now.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#17 » by trex_8063 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:44 am

dhsilv2 wrote:
There is a very significant advantage for Vlade as a shot blocker in this group. He is really the only one of the group who appears to have real impact there. As for assists due to Vlade playing fewer minutes his assists per game might not reflect his actual passing. Vlade has 7 real seasons (ignoring his last year with 15 games played) better than Sikma's second best. It's a pretty clear edge imo.


Speaking for myself, I acknowledged Vlade as the best of the three as a passer/playmaker and rim protector. Related to the latter, I implied Vlade was likely the most effective defensive player overall (albeit by a tiny margin). Why tiny? Because his edge as a rim protector is not massive (it's not like he was elite in this), and as stated previously he's also the weakest defensive rebounder of the three, probably the least versatile on a switch, and also playing the fewest minutes.

Offensively, despite being the best passer, he's also the one who stretches the floor the least (by a handy margin), and is a lesser scorer than Sikma. And what he does provide, it is again provided for fewer minutes.

wrt the latter, minutes matter. Does anyone believe Clint Capella is basically as good as prime Dwight Howard, for example? Because that's practically what his rate metrics are implying......but it's in significantly fewer minutes than prime Howard.
Obv the mpg gap between Sikma and Divac is much smaller, but I'm not going to arbitrarily say "differences less than 'x' number of minutes don't matter". A difference of more than 2-3 minutes is significant, as far as I'm concerned (especially when we're talking about minutes added on to what is already starter-level minutes, because fatigue is most certainly increasingly an issue).

Not saying Vlade playing 3.6 extra mpg would cause his metrics to collapse, but with the extra few plays where his defensive focus isn't quite what it usually is (because he's tired), or his legs just aren't under him for a shot, etc would likely result in a marginal drop in his rate numbers. If Vlade was played 33.4 mpg for his career (instead of 29.8), his career PER might be just 17.3 or 17.4 (instead of 17.7), his WS/48 might be just .130 (instead of .137), his BPM +2.9 or +3.0 (instead of +3.3).

Or if one wants to be more coldly mathematical about it and not resort to assumptions or speculations, we can simply say the total career value above replacement level provided is limited by those limited minutes.


dhsilv2 wrote:Laimbeer's value it more measured in WS which is giving him credit for the Piston's defense. My feeling is that's fair,


OK, so long as you acknowledge that's being sort of arbitrarily selective. You would seem to be implying that we should use all metrics to evaluate the other two centers in question, but stick to WS for Laimbeer (because they are what rates him most highly).

fwiw, even if we did so, let's note that Sikma edges Laimbeer in career WS (by an amount that's equal to nearly one full prime season). And then he beats him in most other rate metrics too (has an edge amounting to roughly TWO full primes season in VORP, for example).

And while this may be semantics, it might be a stretch to say that Laimbeer was the "driver" of those excellent Piston defenses, when they also had Dennis Rodman and Joe Dumars, as well as relatively few true weak spots [defensively] in their primary rotation.
Was Laimbeer important to those excellent defenses? Absolutely.
Was Laimbeer the MOST important player to those excellent defenses? Very likely in '87 (which was actually the first legitimately good defense they had). Arguably in '88, too (perhaps a 1a/1b anyway). After that, unlikely. An important piece, to be sure. But not the best or the "driver" of it.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#18 » by VC15_2K » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:12 pm

Dolph Schayes may have done great things for the sports, but in a player vs. player comparison he would lose to most players today. He wasn't even top 5 in his day let alone top 100 all time
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#19 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:54 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
There is a very significant advantage for Vlade as a shot blocker in this group. He is really the only one of the group who appears to have real impact there. As for assists due to Vlade playing fewer minutes his assists per game might not reflect his actual passing. Vlade has 7 real seasons (ignoring his last year with 15 games played) better than Sikma's second best. It's a pretty clear edge imo.


Speaking for myself, I acknowledged Vlade as the best of the three as a passer/playmaker and rim protector. Related to the latter, I implied Vlade was likely the most effective defensive player overall (albeit by a tiny margin). Why tiny? Because his edge as a rim protector is not massive (it's not like he was elite in this), and as stated previously he's also the weakest defensive rebounder of the three, probably the least versatile on a switch, and also playing the fewest minutes.

Offensively, despite being the best passer, he's also the one who stretches the floor the least (by a handy margin), and is a lesser scorer than Sikma. And what he does provide, it is again provided for fewer minutes.

wrt the latter, minutes matter. Does anyone believe Clint Capella is basically as good as prime Dwight Howard, for example? Because that's practically what his rate metrics are implying......but it's in significantly fewer minutes than prime Howard.
Obv the mpg gap between Sikma and Divac is much smaller, but I'm not going to arbitrarily say "differences less than 'x' number of minutes don't matter". A difference of more than 2-3 minutes is significant, as far as I'm concerned (especially when we're talking about minutes added on to what is already starter-level minutes, because fatigue is most certainly increasingly an issue).

Not saying Vlade playing 3.6 extra mpg would cause his metrics to collapse, but with the extra few plays where his defensive focus isn't quite what it usually is (because he's tired), or his legs just aren't under him for a shot, etc would likely result in a marginal drop in his rate numbers. If Vlade was played 33.4 mpg for his career (instead of 29.8), his career PER might be just 17.3 or 17.4 (instead of 17.7), his WS/48 might be just .130 (instead of .137), his BPM +2.9 or +3.0 (instead of +3.3).

Or if one wants to be more coldly mathematical about it and not resort to assumptions or speculations, we can simply say the total career value above replacement level provided is limited by those limited minutes.


dhsilv2 wrote:Laimbeer's value it more measured in WS which is giving him credit for the Piston's defense. My feeling is that's fair,


OK, so long as you acknowledge that's being sort of arbitrarily selective. You would seem to be implying that we should use all metrics to evaluate the other two centers in question, but stick to WS for Laimbeer (because they are what rates him most highly).

fwiw, even if we did so, let's note that Sikma edges Laimbeer in career WS (by an amount that's equal to nearly one full prime season). And then he beats him in most other rate metrics too (has an edge amounting to roughly TWO full primes season in VORP, for example).

And while this may be semantics, it might be a stretch to say that Laimbeer was the "driver" of those excellent Piston defenses, when they also had Dennis Rodman and Joe Dumars, as well as relatively few true weak spots [defensively] in their primary rotation.
Was Laimbeer important to those excellent defenses? Absolutely.
Was Laimbeer the MOST important player to those excellent defenses? Very likely in '87 (which was actually the first legitimately good defense they had). Arguably in '88, too (perhaps a 1a/1b anyway). After that, unlikely. An important piece, to be sure. But not the best or the "driver" of it.


I have no objection to your review of Vlade's defense. I'd also point out that Vlade had incredible hands. I was watching the laker's bulls series not too long ago and some of the passes Magic made to Vlade simply put would be turnovers if made to 90% of the league's big men, he was catching laser passes like they were nothing.

As for Laimbeer looking best to worst he was better than Sikma most years during their primes (though top 2 favor Sikma), and the question is or should be "why"? Based on my understanding it comes down to team defense, and my statements are if non box value is somewhat being captured by WS for Bill and justifies using WS here. My view is yes. I think he had tangible value (physical play) and intangible value (he was a big part of their culture).
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #93 

Post#20 » by trex_8063 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:07 pm

Thru post #19:

Chet Walker - 1 (trex_8063)
Mel Daniels - 1 (penbeast0)
Bill Walton - 1 (pandrade83)


~24 hours until I turf this one to runoff. Don't leave it to the last minute....

Spoiler:
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"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd

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