Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's

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Where does Curry rank on your all time PG's

#1.
10
13%
#2.
28
36%
#3.
18
23%
#4.
9
12%
#5.
4
5%
#6.
2
3%
#7.
0
No votes
#8.
2
3%
#9.
1
1%
#10.
4
5%
 
Total votes: 78

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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#21 » by Samurai » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:24 pm

mischievous wrote:Holy crap is Oscar being disrespected in this thread. He’s easily ahead of Curry.

Without knowing the specific individuals, I would guess that most, if not all, of those voters have seen a lot of Curry and never saw Oscar play live. If there were individuals that saw a lot of basketball in the 60's but stopped watching basketball prior to Curry's entrance - in other words saw a lot of Oscar "in the moment" and followed what other players, fans and sports writers said about Big O at that time but never saw Curry outside of a few highlight clips on Youtube or SportsCenter - I would guess they would rank Oscar higher. I just don't think any such individuals would likely post on RealGM.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#22 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:25 pm

The case for Oscar is supposed to be the offenses he led, right? I just checked the ORtgs through his prime. They were 2.5-4.5 points better than league average. Meanwhile, the last 4 years, Curry’s led offenses that were 5-8.5 points better than league average. Also, Oscar won a total of 2 playoff series as the best player. Curry already has 3 rings. Curry has much better numbers as well. And that doesn’t even factor in Curry facing far tougher competition. What exactly is the case for Oscar? It seems like Curry, Paul, and Magic are in a class of their own, a tier above everyone else.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#23 » by mischievous » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:29 pm

Samurai wrote:
mischievous wrote:Holy crap is Oscar being disrespected in this thread. He’s easily ahead of Curry.

Without knowing the specific individuals, I would guess that most, if not all, of those voters have seen a lot of Curry and never saw Oscar play live. If there were individuals that saw a lot of basketball in the 60's but stopped watching basketball prior to Curry's entrance - in other words saw a lot of Oscar "in the moment" and followed what other players, fans and sports writers said about Big O at that time but never saw Curry outside of a few highlight clips on Youtube or SportsCenter - I would guess they would rank Oscar higher. I just don't think any such individuals would likely post on RealGM.

Well i mean as the board on a whole, Oscar is generally held in pretty high regard he went 13th in our last top 100 project and 12th in the 2014 version. He’s a concensus top 15 all time player here, it’s a total joke to say Curry already ranks that high and it’s unlikely he ever will given his durability issues and already being like 30 or whatever.

I think there’s a lot of Curry/Warrior fans posting and voting in this thread is all.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#24 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:08 pm

mischievous wrote:
Samurai wrote:
mischievous wrote:Holy crap is Oscar being disrespected in this thread. He’s easily ahead of Curry.

Without knowing the specific individuals, I would guess that most, if not all, of those voters have seen a lot of Curry and never saw Oscar play live. If there were individuals that saw a lot of basketball in the 60's but stopped watching basketball prior to Curry's entrance - in other words saw a lot of Oscar "in the moment" and followed what other players, fans and sports writers said about Big O at that time but never saw Curry outside of a few highlight clips on Youtube or SportsCenter - I would guess they would rank Oscar higher. I just don't think any such individuals would likely post on RealGM.

Well i mean as the board on a whole, Oscar is generally held in pretty high regard he went 13th in our last top 100 project and 12th in the 2014 version. He’s a concensus top 15 all time player here, it’s a total joke to say Curry already ranks that high and it’s unlikely he ever will given his durability issues and already being like 30 or whatever.

I think there’s a lot of Curry/Warrior fans posting and voting in this thread is all.


It’s a question of whether you’d rather have 4 elite seasons playing some of the best offense of all time that are good enough to win titles or 8 pretty good seasons that aren’t enough to win anything. And yes I’m aware that Oscar won on Kareem’s team in ‘71 after 3 straight years missing the playoffs, but that’s about as relevant as Kevin Love’s ring with LeBron.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#25 » by 70sFan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:10 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:The case for Oscar is supposed to be the offenses he led, right? I just checked the ORtgs through his prime. They were 2.5-4.5 points better than league average. Meanwhile, the last 4 years, Curry’s led offenses that were 5-8.5 points better than league average. Also, Oscar won a total of 2 playoff series as the best player. Curry already has 3 rings. Curry has much better numbers as well. And that doesn’t even factor in Curry facing far tougher competition. What exactly is the case for Oscar? It seems like Curry, Paul, and Magic are in a class of their own, a tier above everyone else.


Can you, please, stop comparing ORtgs and DRtgs of teams from 30 teams league and 10 teams league? It's simple math, the more teams the bigger difference between the best and average teams is. Until we had over 20 teams in the league, we didn't have teams like Raptors for example with such a huge SRS. It's just much different environment.

Oscar led elite offenses compared to league average every single year (outside of 1970) and many times he didn't have good supporting cast at all. For what it's worth, Oscar was co-leader of one of the best offensive teams ever in early 70s Bucks.

As to winning 2 playoffs series, almost the same can be said about KG in Minny and we all know he was outstanding player. Curry advanced to the finals two times when he missed multiple games in playoffs. He just won a ring when he didn't play in the first round at all. Do you think that would work in Royals team? Also, do you really believe that Royals would have made playoffs with Curry in place of Oscar in late 60s? Curry wouldn't make them better defensively (Oscar was far better defender) and he wouldn't improve offense enough.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#26 » by 70sFan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:13 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
mischievous wrote:
Samurai wrote:Without knowing the specific individuals, I would guess that most, if not all, of those voters have seen a lot of Curry and never saw Oscar play live. If there were individuals that saw a lot of basketball in the 60's but stopped watching basketball prior to Curry's entrance - in other words saw a lot of Oscar "in the moment" and followed what other players, fans and sports writers said about Big O at that time but never saw Curry outside of a few highlight clips on Youtube or SportsCenter - I would guess they would rank Oscar higher. I just don't think any such individuals would likely post on RealGM.

Well i mean as the board on a whole, Oscar is generally held in pretty high regard he went 13th in our last top 100 project and 12th in the 2014 version. He’s a concensus top 15 all time player here, it’s a total joke to say Curry already ranks that high and it’s unlikely he ever will given his durability issues and already being like 30 or whatever.

I think there’s a lot of Curry/Warrior fans posting and voting in this thread is all.


It’s a question of whether you’d rather have 4 elite seasons playing some of the best offense of all time that are good enough to win titles or 8 pretty good seasons that aren’t enough to win anything. And yes I’m aware that Oscar won on Kareem’s team in ‘71 after 3 straight years missing the playoffs, but that’s about as relevant as Kevin Love’s ring with LeBron.


This is ridiculous, Oscar was still top 10 player in the league in 1971.

Curry was good enough to win championships and conference finals without playing in first two rounds. Yeah, for sure it would work in Royals.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#27 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:26 pm

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:The case for Oscar is supposed to be the offenses he led, right? I just checked the ORtgs through his prime. They were 2.5-4.5 points better than league average. Meanwhile, the last 4 years, Curry’s led offenses that were 5-8.5 points better than league average. Also, Oscar won a total of 2 playoff series as the best player. Curry already has 3 rings. Curry has much better numbers as well. And that doesn’t even factor in Curry facing far tougher competition. What exactly is the case for Oscar? It seems like Curry, Paul, and Magic are in a class of their own, a tier above everyone else.


Can you, please, stop comparing ORtgs and DRtgs of teams from 30 teams league and 10 teams league? It's simple math, the more teams the bigger difference between the best and average teams is. Until we had over 20 teams in the league, we didn't have teams like Raptors for example with such a huge SRS. It's just much different environment.


There are two factors at play here. One is that the individual team brings up the average more. That’s a legitimate but very small effect. A team 3.5 points better than average in an 8-team league will bring up the league average up 0.44 points. A team 7 points better than league average in a 30-team league will bring up the average up 0.23 points. So adjust those numbers 0.21 points, it’s still a massive edge for Curry.

The other is that in a league where there’s only enough talent for 8 good teams (even if we assume those teams were as talented as those now which is incredibly generous to the ‘60s teams), there will be less elite teams and less elite players on average each season. Typically, you’d expect to find ~4x as many really good players or really good teams per year in the modern era as in the ‘60s.

You can’t just fudge everything to make sure we have the same number of players from each decade and say “well, he was much less dominant against much weaker competition but he was the best offensive player we had at the time so we’ll just count him the same as the best offensive player now”. That’s a really simplistic, trivial level of analysis that I’m not interested in engaging in.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#28 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:28 pm

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
mischievous wrote:Well i mean as the board on a whole, Oscar is generally held in pretty high regard he went 13th in our last top 100 project and 12th in the 2014 version. He’s a concensus top 15 all time player here, it’s a total joke to say Curry already ranks that high and it’s unlikely he ever will given his durability issues and already being like 30 or whatever.

I think there’s a lot of Curry/Warrior fans posting and voting in this thread is all.


It’s a question of whether you’d rather have 4 elite seasons playing some of the best offense of all time that are good enough to win titles or 8 pretty good seasons that aren’t enough to win anything. And yes I’m aware that Oscar won on Kareem’s team in ‘71 after 3 straight years missing the playoffs, but that’s about as relevant as Kevin Love’s ring with LeBron.


This is ridiculous, Oscar was still top 10 player in the league in 1971.

Curry was good enough to win championships and conference finals without playing in first two rounds. Yeah, for sure it would work in Royals.


Oscar was a Top 10 player playing with the best player in an 8-team league. Love was a Top 30 player playing with the best player in a 30-team league. Impact checks out.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#29 » by 70sFan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:36 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
It’s a question of whether you’d rather have 4 elite seasons playing some of the best offense of all time that are good enough to win titles or 8 pretty good seasons that aren’t enough to win anything. And yes I’m aware that Oscar won on Kareem’s team in ‘71 after 3 straight years missing the playoffs, but that’s about as relevant as Kevin Love’s ring with LeBron.


This is ridiculous, Oscar was still top 10 player in the league in 1971.

Curry was good enough to win championships and conference finals without playing in first two rounds. Yeah, for sure it would work in Royals.


Oscar was a Top 10 player playing with the best player in an 8-team league. Love was a Top 30 player playing with the best player in a 30-team league. Impact checks out.


Oscar was a top 10 player (probably top 5) playing with the best player in a 17-team league. Don't make up stuff to help your agenda.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#30 » by 70sFan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:48 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:The case for Oscar is supposed to be the offenses he led, right? I just checked the ORtgs through his prime. They were 2.5-4.5 points better than league average. Meanwhile, the last 4 years, Curry’s led offenses that were 5-8.5 points better than league average. Also, Oscar won a total of 2 playoff series as the best player. Curry already has 3 rings. Curry has much better numbers as well. And that doesn’t even factor in Curry facing far tougher competition. What exactly is the case for Oscar? It seems like Curry, Paul, and Magic are in a class of their own, a tier above everyone else.


Can you, please, stop comparing ORtgs and DRtgs of teams from 30 teams league and 10 teams league? It's simple math, the more teams the bigger difference between the best and average teams is. Until we had over 20 teams in the league, we didn't have teams like Raptors for example with such a huge SRS. It's just much different environment.


There are two factors at play here. One is that the individual team brings up the average more. That’s a legitimate but very small effect. A team 3.5 points better than average in an 8-team league will bring up the league average up 0.44 points. A team 7 points better than league average in a 30-team league will bring up the average up 0.23 points. So adjust those numbers 0.21 points, it’s still a massive edge for Curry.

The other is that in a league where there’s only enough talent for 8 good teams (even if we assume those teams were as talented as those now which is incredibly generous to the ‘60s teams), there will be less elite teams and less elite players on average each season. Typically, you’d expect to find ~4x as many really good players or really good teams per year in the modern era as in the ‘60s.

You can’t just fudge everything to make sure we have the same number of players from each decade and say “well, he was much less dominant against much weaker competition but he was the best offensive player we had at the time so we’ll just count him the same as the best offensive player now”. That’s a really simplistic, trivial level of analysis that I’m not interested in engaging in.



Then tell me why the best and the worst (by SRS, ORtg) teams we have in NBA history are from 25+ team league? Tell me why we didn't have teams so dominant in smaller league? Today every good team has better SRS than contenders in 1960s.

Also, if the league is so much better, then we would see more average teams and less extremes. You can't have both, 30 teams in the league makes contenders look better and bad teams look worse. The more teams, the bigger disproportion. Take some time to look at those stats, it's not an accident.

Not to mention that Curry is playing with Durant, Klay, Green and great coach with great system. I never blame all-time greats for having elite teams, but you can't compare Curry's situation in 2015-18 to Oscar situation in 1960-69. It's not even close, only trolls would argue otherwise. Look how Warriors fared in 2011-14 span offensively, this is much closer situation for Curry to what Oscar had in most of his prime. Warriors weren't elite offensively until Kerr completely changed system and Klay/Green became better.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#31 » by Samurai » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:01 pm

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
This is ridiculous, Oscar was still top 10 player in the league in 1971.

Curry was good enough to win championships and conference finals without playing in first two rounds. Yeah, for sure it would work in Royals.


Oscar was a Top 10 player playing with the best player in an 8-team league. Love was a Top 30 player playing with the best player in a 30-team league. Impact checks out.


Oscar was a top 10 player (probably top 5) playing with the best player in a 17-team league. Don't make up stuff to help your agenda.

I really don't know why people keep saying things like "8-team league" without giving a reason for ignoring the other 9 teams. If someone is making an argument that 9 teams were so bad that there is statistical evidence that their value is the same as a team with 0 players on them, then they should just come out and provide that evidence. He may be claiming that the league only had 8 teams is "alternative facts", but since it can so easily be verified through many sources it just comes across as an obviously untrue statement.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#32 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:10 pm

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
This is ridiculous, Oscar was still top 10 player in the league in 1971.

Curry was good enough to win championships and conference finals without playing in first two rounds. Yeah, for sure it would work in Royals.


Oscar was a Top 10 player playing with the best player in an 8-team league. Love was a Top 30 player playing with the best player in a 30-team league. Impact checks out.


Oscar was a top 10 player (probably top 5) playing with the best player in a 17-team league. Don't make up stuff to help your agenda.


I went to B-Ref to check it and just saw the first 2 divisions and a gap and thought it was conferences. Still the point is Oscar was a clear second banana who was nowhere close to Kareem. Whether he was playing at Kevin Love level, Kyrie Irving level, Klay Thompson level, Paul Pierce level, or Pau Gasol level, it doesn’t make a huge impact on his legacy either way.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#33 » by Samurai » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:10 pm

mischievous wrote:
Samurai wrote:
mischievous wrote:Holy crap is Oscar being disrespected in this thread. He’s easily ahead of Curry.

Without knowing the specific individuals, I would guess that most, if not all, of those voters have seen a lot of Curry and never saw Oscar play live. If there were individuals that saw a lot of basketball in the 60's but stopped watching basketball prior to Curry's entrance - in other words saw a lot of Oscar "in the moment" and followed what other players, fans and sports writers said about Big O at that time but never saw Curry outside of a few highlight clips on Youtube or SportsCenter - I would guess they would rank Oscar higher. I just don't think any such individuals would likely post on RealGM.

Well i mean as the board on a whole, Oscar is generally held in pretty high regard he went 13th in our last top 100 project and 12th in the 2014 version. He’s a concensus top 15 all time player here, it’s a total joke to say Curry already ranks that high and it’s unlikely he ever will given his durability issues and already being like 30 or whatever.

I think there’s a lot of Curry/Warrior fans posting and voting in this thread is all.

I think that is why it needs to be more clear if you are ranking Curry among peak all-time PG's or career. I wouldn't argue with someone that has Curry higher based on peak; that seems to be a reasonable argument. If they are arguing that Curry's career has surpassed Oscar's, then without better arguments than what has been offered thus far it seems that Oscar is either being very underrated or the poster has likely never seen Oscar play live - or both.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#34 » by 70sFan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:19 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Oscar was a Top 10 player playing with the best player in an 8-team league. Love was a Top 30 player playing with the best player in a 30-team league. Impact checks out.


Oscar was a top 10 player (probably top 5) playing with the best player in a 17-team league. Don't make up stuff to help your agenda.


I went to B-Ref to check it and just saw the first 2 divisions and a gap and thought it was conferences. Still the point is Oscar was a clear second banana who was nowhere close to Kareem. Whether he was playing at Kevin Love level, Kyrie Irving level, Klay Thompson level, Paul Pierce level, or Pau Gasol level, it doesn’t make a huge impact on his legacy either way.


Oscar in 1971 was at least on 2018 CP3 level and he was more important for the Bucks than Paul was for the Rockets. We have very few games from that season, but in every single Bucks game from 1970-72 I have seen, Bucks offense played very bad without Oscar and he made them the best in the league. Keep in mind that Kareem played almost full games and they had some great players like Dandridge, Allen or McGlocklin. Milwaukee was elite team but Oscar was their catalyzator. Very few could force pace of the game as well as Robertson.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#35 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:42 pm

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Oscar was a top 10 player (probably top 5) playing with the best player in a 17-team league. Don't make up stuff to help your agenda.


I went to B-Ref to check it and just saw the first 2 divisions and a gap and thought it was conferences. Still the point is Oscar was a clear second banana who was nowhere close to Kareem. Whether he was playing at Kevin Love level, Kyrie Irving level, Klay Thompson level, Paul Pierce level, or Pau Gasol level, it doesn’t make a huge impact on his legacy either way.


Oscar in 1971 was at least on 2018 CP3 level and he was more important for the Bucks than Paul was for the Rockets. We have very few games from that season, but in every single Bucks game from 1970-72 I have seen, Bucks offense played very bad without Oscar and he made them the best in the league. Keep in mind that Kareem played almost full games and they had some great players like Dandridge, Allen or McGlocklin. Milwaukee was elite team but Oscar was their catalyzator. Very few could force pace of the game as well as Robertson.


Regular season
2018 Paul: 24.4 PER, .265 WS/48
1971 Oscar: 19.6 PER, .186 WS/48

Postseason
2018 Paul: 22.8 PER, .193 WS/48
1971 Oscar: 21.1 PER, .213 WS/48

Yes, the playoff numbers are close, but considering that Paul’s an elite playmaker who continuously outperforms his box score numbers in impact (led NBA in RPM this season) and that he’s still the best defensive PG in the league, it’s a real stretch to say that Oscar had the same kind of impact. They has all-defensive teams starting in ‘69 and Oscar never made one once.

Oscar played 81 games in ‘71 so you can’t really do WOWY analysis there, but the next season Bucks were 50-14 (.781) with him and 13-5 (.722) without. The Rockets were 50-8 with Paul (.862) and 15-9 (.625) without him.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#36 » by ztejas » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:57 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Oscar was a Top 10 player playing with the best player in an 8-team league. Love was a Top 30 player playing with the best player in a 30-team league. Impact checks out.


Oscar was a top 10 player (probably top 5) playing with the best player in a 17-team league. Don't make up stuff to help your agenda.


I went to B-Ref to check it and just saw the first 2 divisions and a gap and thought it was conferences. Still the point is Oscar was a clear second banana who was nowhere close to Kareem. Whether he was playing at Kevin Love level, Kyrie Irving level, Klay Thompson level, Paul Pierce level, or Pau Gasol level, it doesn’t make a huge impact on his legacy either way.


I mean he averaged 18/9/5 on 49/75 splits for that playoffs and led the playoffs in assists. He was a key contributor to a championship team, and I'm not sure being a "clear second banana" to 1971 Kareem is saying much, seeing as Kareem was clearly the best player in the league that season. ORob had 23.5 ppg in their Finals series.

To the topic, no I don't put Curry ahead of him yet, if only because their career totals aren't remotely close right now. ORob is missing about 100 assists for 25k/10k, Curry isn't even at 15/5.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#37 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:38 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
I went to B-Ref to check it and just saw the first 2 divisions and a gap and thought it was conferences. Still the point is Oscar was a clear second banana who was nowhere close to Kareem. Whether he was playing at Kevin Love level, Kyrie Irving level, Klay Thompson level, Paul Pierce level, or Pau Gasol level, it doesn’t make a huge impact on his legacy either way.


Oscar in 1971 was at least on 2018 CP3 level and he was more important for the Bucks than Paul was for the Rockets. We have very few games from that season, but in every single Bucks game from 1970-72 I have seen, Bucks offense played very bad without Oscar and he made them the best in the league. Keep in mind that Kareem played almost full games and they had some great players like Dandridge, Allen or McGlocklin. Milwaukee was elite team but Oscar was their catalyzator. Very few could force pace of the game as well as Robertson.


Regular season
2018 Paul: 24.4 PER, .265 WS/48
1971 Oscar: 19.6 PER, .186 WS/48

Postseason
2018 Paul: 22.8 PER, .193 WS/48
1971 Oscar: 21.1 PER, .213 WS/48

Yes, the playoff numbers are close, but considering that Paul’s an elite playmaker who continuously outperforms his box score numbers in impact (led NBA in RPM this season) and that he’s still the best defensive PG in the league, it’s a real stretch to say that Oscar had the same kind of impact. They has all-defensive teams starting in ‘69 and Oscar never made one once.

Oscar played 81 games in ‘71 so you can’t really do WOWY analysis there, but the next season Bucks were 50-14 (.781) with him and 13-5 (.722) without. The Rockets were 50-8 with Paul (.862) and 15-9 (.625) without him.


Oscar also was an elite playmaker (probably the best in the league).i wouldn't call Paul the best defensive PG in the league and Oscar played during Frazier prime, it's not fair to compare their accolades as Paul isn't as good defender as Frazier either. Read some interviews from that season - even Larry Costello said Oscar gave them huge defensive boost. I say this again - he was co-leader of one of the best teams in NBA history. He wasn't better than Kareem but he waa just as important for them. Somehow Curry isn't blamed for playing with Durant for you, but Oscar's ring doesn't matter.

Then you didn't respond about differences in circumstances - Oscar played full decade in weak team with bad management, unstable situation of head coach and lack of firepower. Yet he always made them elite offensive team. What could he have done else? What would Curry have done in his situation? Not to mention that Royals lost 3 times against Russell's Celtics and 2 times against Wilt's Sixers during their best 5 years (1963-67). In 1968 Oscar missed some games and Royals didn't make playoffs (they were 35-30 with him and 4-13 without him). Curry can miss 30 games in RS and 10 games in playoffs and his team will still win championship. How can you compare that situation?
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#38 » by iggymcfrack » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:21 am

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Oscar in 1971 was at least on 2018 CP3 level and he was more important for the Bucks than Paul was for the Rockets. We have very few games from that season, but in every single Bucks game from 1970-72 I have seen, Bucks offense played very bad without Oscar and he made them the best in the league. Keep in mind that Kareem played almost full games and they had some great players like Dandridge, Allen or McGlocklin. Milwaukee was elite team but Oscar was their catalyzator. Very few could force pace of the game as well as Robertson.


Regular season
2018 Paul: 24.4 PER, .265 WS/48
1971 Oscar: 19.6 PER, .186 WS/48

Postseason
2018 Paul: 22.8 PER, .193 WS/48
1971 Oscar: 21.1 PER, .213 WS/48

Yes, the playoff numbers are close, but considering that Paul’s an elite playmaker who continuously outperforms his box score numbers in impact (led NBA in RPM this season) and that he’s still the best defensive PG in the league, it’s a real stretch to say that Oscar had the same kind of impact. They has all-defensive teams starting in ‘69 and Oscar never made one once.

Oscar played 81 games in ‘71 so you can’t really do WOWY analysis there, but the next season Bucks were 50-14 (.781) with him and 13-5 (.722) without. The Rockets were 50-8 with Paul (.862) and 15-9 (.625) without him.


Oscar also was an elite playmaker (probably the best in the league).i wouldn't call Paul the best defensive PG in the league and Oscar played during Frazier prime, it's not fair to compare their accolades as Paul isn't as good defender as Frazier either. Read some interviews from that season - even Larry Costello said Oscar gave them huge defensive boost. I say this again - he was co-leader of one of the best teams in NBA history. He wasn't better than Kareem but he waa just as important for them. Somehow Curry isn't blamed for playing with Durant for you, but Oscar's ring doesn't matter.


You do realize that Durant's only even played in Golden State for 2 years, right? Without him, Steph won a ring, set the all-time wins record, and led one of the best offenses of all-time, an offense that was twice as far above league average as Oscar's in his prime. And then, since they came together, they've been co-alphas. It's a real debate which one's better or more valuable. There's no clear consensus either way. Oscar wasn't in that situation with Kareem. He was the clear second fiddle. The reason I was comparing him to Pau, Kyrie, Kevin Love, etc., is because the gap between them and the star of their team was similar.

Then you didn't respond about differences in circumstances - Oscar played full decade in weak team with bad management, unstable situation of head coach and lack of firepower. Yet he always made them elite offensive team. What could he have done else? What would Curry have done in his situation? Not to mention that Royals lost 3 times against Russell's Celtics and 2 times against Wilt's Sixers during their best 5 years (1963-67). In 1968 Oscar missed some games and Royals didn't make playoffs (they were 35-30 with him and 4-13 without him). Curry can miss 30 games in RS and 10 games in playoffs and his team will still win championship. How can you compare that situation?


Curry would have made them a much more elite offensive team, because he's a much better offensive player. Warriors net rating with and without Steph by year:

2013/14: On +9.2, Off -5.9
2014/15: On +16.6, Off -1.4
2015/16: On +17.9, Off -4.3
2016/17: On +17.2, Off -0.3
2017/18: On +13.7, Off +0.7

They weren't just coasting due to the surrounding talent. When he went to the bench, the Warriors offense was mediocre to poor and when he was in, it was one of the best of all time. That's a massive, massive impact due to Curry, and is much more impressive than just having an offense that's 3 or 4 points better than league average throughout your prime. If leading an elite offense is the only criterion, Nash and Harden both have much better cases than Oscar.

Also, going 0-5 all 5 times you faced another great player doesn't really impress me much, and it doesn't make me feel sorry for Oscar. If you want to be a great player, sometimes you have to get it done against elite competition. Even before joining up with KD, Curry beat Anthony Davis, LeBron, James Harden (twice), and Russell Westbrook + Kevin Durant (together). That's 5 superstars that he beat without another superstar by his side. Plus, not all of those Wilt/Russell teams Oscar lost to were world-beaters. In '65, the 76ers went 40-40 (18-17 after trading for Wilt), and they still breezed past the Royals, outscoring them by 22 points over 4 games.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#39 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:38 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Regular season
2018 Paul: 24.4 PER, .265 WS/48
1971 Oscar: 19.6 PER, .186 WS/48

Postseason
2018 Paul: 22.8 PER, .193 WS/48
1971 Oscar: 21.1 PER, .213 WS/48

Yes, the playoff numbers are close, but considering that Paul’s an elite playmaker who continuously outperforms his box score numbers in impact (led NBA in RPM this season) and that he’s still the best defensive PG in the league, it’s a real stretch to say that Oscar had the same kind of impact. They has all-defensive teams starting in ‘69 and Oscar never made one once.

Oscar played 81 games in ‘71 so you can’t really do WOWY analysis there, but the next season Bucks were 50-14 (.781) with him and 13-5 (.722) without. The Rockets were 50-8 with Paul (.862) and 15-9 (.625) without him.


Oscar also was an elite playmaker (probably the best in the league).i wouldn't call Paul the best defensive PG in the league and Oscar played during Frazier prime, it's not fair to compare their accolades as Paul isn't as good defender as Frazier either. Read some interviews from that season - even Larry Costello said Oscar gave them huge defensive boost. I say this again - he was co-leader of one of the best teams in NBA history. He wasn't better than Kareem but he waa just as important for them. Somehow Curry isn't blamed for playing with Durant for you, but Oscar's ring doesn't matter.


You do realize that Durant's only even played in Golden State for 2 years, right? Without him, Steph won a ring, set the all-time wins record, and led one of the best offenses of all-time, an offense that was twice as far above league average as Oscar's in his prime. And then, since they came together, they've been co-alphas. It's a real debate which one's better or more valuable. There's no clear consensus either way. Oscar wasn't in that situation with Kareem. He was the clear second fiddle. The reason I was comparing him to Pau, Kyrie, Kevin Love, etc., is because the gap between them and the star of their team was similar.

Then you didn't respond about differences in circumstances - Oscar played full decade in weak team with bad management, unstable situation of head coach and lack of firepower. Yet he always made them elite offensive team. What could he have done else? What would Curry have done in his situation? Not to mention that Royals lost 3 times against Russell's Celtics and 2 times against Wilt's Sixers during their best 5 years (1963-67). In 1968 Oscar missed some games and Royals didn't make playoffs (they were 35-30 with him and 4-13 without him). Curry can miss 30 games in RS and 10 games in playoffs and his team will still win championship. How can you compare that situation?


Curry would have made them a much more elite offensive team, because he's a much better offensive player. Warriors net rating with and without Steph by year:

2013/14: On +9.2, Off -5.9
2014/15: On +16.6, Off -1.4
2015/16: On +17.9, Off -4.3
2016/17: On +17.2, Off -0.3
2017/18: On +13.7, Off +0.7

They weren't just coasting due to the surrounding talent. When he went to the bench, the Warriors offense was mediocre and when he was in, it was one of the best of all time. That's a massive, massive impact due to Curry, and is much more impressive than just having an offense that's 3 or 4 points better than league average throughout your prime. If leading an elite offense is the only criterion, Nash and Harden both have much better cases than Oscar.

Also, going 0-5 all 5 times you faced another great player doesn't really impress me much, and it doesn't make me feel sorry for Oscar. If you want to be a great player, sometimes you have to get it done against elite competition. Even before joining up with KD, Curry beat Anthony Davis, LeBron, James Harden (twice), and Russell Westbrook + Kevin Durant (together). That's 5 superstars that he beat without another superstar by his side. Plus, not all of those Wilt/Russell teams Oscar lost to were world-beaters. In '65, the 76ers went 40-40 (18-17 after trading for Wilt), and they still breezed past the Royals, outscoring them by 22 points over 4 games.


First bolded - he did that with elite team around him and great coach. That's more than anything Oscar had in his prime. Warriors without their elite defense wouldn't be anything more than Nash Suns teams. Curry wouldn't make them elite defensively. Also, stop comparing relative ORtgs arcoss the eras. Curry wouldn't lead Royals to +8 rORtg in 1960s in such a small league.

Second bolded - no it isn't. Oscar was one of the best players in the league, it’s more like James and Wade until Wade injuries.

We don't have on and off stats for Oscar so this doesn't make Curry any better than him.

Third bolded - He did all these things with better team than his opponents. Oscar didn't have the same luxury. When Curry had mediocre coach and not elite team, he did far less (2011-14) than Oscar. Again, without Bogut and Draymond, Warriors wouldn't be good defensively and that combined with their all-time great offense made them all-time teams. Give Oscar someone like Nate Thurmond and they would win much more than he did, because he could make any team elite offensively but he needed defensive help - something we all forget about and it's the same with Curry.

Oscar was top 5 player in the league for 11 years. Curry was for 4 years. Even if you assume that he peaked higher (which is fair), Curry still has less than half of Oscar's prime. That's just not fair, Curry isn't that much better than Oscar and I'm not even sure that he's any better.
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Re: Where does Curry Rank Amongst your All Time PG's 

Post#40 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:02 am

Also, here are rORtg for Oscar and Curry:

Curry

2013 +0.5
2014 +0.8
2015 +6.0
2016 +8.1
2017 +6.8
2018 +5.0

Two times the best offensive team in the league.

Oscar

1961 +3.5
1962 +4.7
1963 +3.5
1964 +4.3
1965 +4.4
1966 +2.6
1967 +2.3
1968 +4.3
1969 +4.7
1970 -1.0
1971 +6.7

6 times the best offense in the league.

I didn't mention Curry before 2013 to make him look better, but outside of outlier 2016 season, he doesn't look that much better especially given:

- huge difference in league size,
- huge difference between supporting casts.

Curry before Kerr didn't lead any good offense while Oscar made Royals (bad offensive team) the best in the league in his rookie season. Royals had only one bad season in Oscar's career there. When he finally got team similar to 2017 Warriors team, the result was similar to Curry, woth difference that he did that in smaller league and he was more past his peak than Curry.

I don't see anything that makes Oscar much worse than Curry. He was LeBron-like in a sense that he could carry any team to elite offense but the difference is that he never had good defenders until late in his career.

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