OT: Bigger gap: Messi/C. Ronaldo or LeBron/Kobe

[ardee]

Karl Messi does it again.

Lmao what a fraud. Talk about invisible. He looked scared to even get the ball.

[Fadeaway_J]

The Karl Malone schtick doesn't make any more sense today than it did yesterday. Especially when the guy you're comparing him to has done nothing at the World Cup prior to this year.

[NinjaSheppard]

ardee has gone full senile the last year or so

ElGee's Kobe ranking broke him

Personal attack, baiting. trex

[page]

Ardee, are you really one of those guys who will stick to any poorly-worded opinion just because it's yours? Seriously, I thought better of you.

You call him Karl Malone of the last 5 years, that's completely ridiculous. Four years ago he was voted the best player of Brazilian World Cup, did you watch it?
- vs Bosnia he scored the winning goal, 65 min, 2:1 win
- vs Iran, winning goal in 90+1 min (!!!), 1:0 win
- vs Nigeria he scored another 2 goals, 3:2 win for Argentina
- vs Switzerland, he assisted Di Maria to score in 118 min, extended time, 1:0 win
and I'm just talking about scoring here. His gravity and taking defenses attention were insane. If not for his heavy lifting, that team would've struggled to get to Round of 16, let alone the final.

You criticize Lionel Messi for poor Argentina performance at 2018 World Cup. So you have him responsible for:
- moronic head coach, who failed to create a cohesive team in 18 months, passing on Icardi, Lamela, Pastore and others
- Caballero fatal mistakes in both games
- anemic midfield, unable to make plays, dominate the midfield, make key passes, hold the ball; unable to do anything they're supposed to
- third-class defensive formation, less reliable than Morocco-Iran-Egypt-younameit.

If we judge football players by team success, as Ronaldo supporters do in this thread, then how come that Barcelona with Messi took six La Liga titles since Ronaldo arrived? He just managed to get it done twice...

Even this past season, Real Madrid was basically out of contention by mid January. Barcelona went unbeaten almost whole year, losing just one game at the end of campaign - 5:4 loss to Levante. Messi was inactive that day. Barcelona finished the season with 93 points to Real's 79. If we translate it to NBA results, it's like a difference between 65 and 55 win teams.

[Fadeaway_J]

Ardee, are you really one of those guys who will stick to any poorly-worded opinion just because it's yours? Seriously, I thought better of you.

You call him Karl Malone of the last 5 years, that's completely ridiculous. Four years ago he was voted the best player of Brazilian World Cup, did you watch it?
- vs Bosnia he scored the winning goal, 65 min, 2:1 win
- vs Iran, winning goal in 90+1 min (!!!), 1:0 win
- vs Nigeria he scored another 2 goals, 3:2 win for Argentina
- vs Switzerland, he assisted Di Maria to score in 118 min, extended time, 1:0 win
and I'm just talking about scoring here. His gravity and taking defenses attention were insane. If not for his heavy lifting, that team would've struggled to get to Round of 16, let alone the final.

You criticize Lionel Messi for poor Argentina performance at 2018 World Cup. So you have him responsible for:
- moronic head coach, who failed to create a cohesive team in 18 months, passing on Icardi, Lamela, Pastore and others
- Caballero fatal mistakes in both games
- anemic midfield, unable to make plays, dominate the midfield, make key passes, hold the ball; unable to do anything they're supposed to
- third-class defensive formation, less reliable than Morocco-Iran-Egypt-younameit.

If we judge football players by team success, as Ronaldo supporters do in this thread, then how come that Barcelona with Messi took six La Liga titles since Ronaldo arrived? He just managed to get it done twice...

Even this past season, Real Madrid was basically out of contention by mid January. Barcelona went unbeaten almost whole year, losing just one game at the end of campaign - 5:4 loss to Levante. Messi was inactive that day. Barcelona finished the season with 93 points to Real's 79. If we translate it to NBA results, it's like a difference between 65 and 55 win teams.

Didn't you get the memo? League games and titles no longer matter now that Ronaldo has won three Champions Leagues in a row.

[Jaivl]

Bump.

[pelifan]

Harder to determine impact in soccer where you are reliant on 10 other teammates than in basketball when it's only 4. form, chemistry, and luck being bigger deals in football than in basketball. You have teams whose entire rosters players have more individual transfer value than other entire teams losing. That's rare in basketball, but frequent inn football. It'll be a long time until team USA loses again. And even when they lose its to a team with Manu Ginobili.

I'd say Messi is better, or would be better on most teams. But they are different footballers stylistically and on the right team with the right manager either one could look better. Compare that to how hard it is to separate top American football players. 10 other players you're reliant on, lots of different roles, and even less stats to use (something like goals scored being one of the flukiest of stats).

[Fadeaway_J]

Harder to determine impact in soccer where you are reliant on 10 other teammates than in basketball when it's only 4. form and chemistry being bigger deals in football than in basketball. You have teams who's entire rosters players have more individual transfer value than other entire teams losing. That's rare in basketball, but frequent inn football. It'll be a long time until team USA loses again. And even when they lose its to a team with Manu Ginobili.

I'd say Messi is better, or would be better on most teams. But they are different footballers stylistically and on the right team with the right manager either one could look better. Compare that to how hard it is to separate top American football players. 10 other players you're reliant on, lots of different roles, and even less stats to use (something like goals scored being one of the flukiest of stats).

To me the glaring difference between Messi and pretty much any player of that "type" is that he can play practically three roles in one: he can build moves from deep, play the killer pass, and of course finish at an insanely high level. It's extremely rare to find a player who does all of those things as well as he does. Ronaldo for example (and I don't mean this as a slight at all) is pretty much exclusively a final third player - he's an outrageously good final third player, but outside of that area of the pitch he's not going to make a huge impact. Again, that's the normal expectation for a forward/winger, but when I see a player who has similar or better efficiency in that area but also can almost play as a #8 at times, I give that player the edge.

What I find silly are the constant attempts to relitigate the case of who is the better player based on who won which trophy this season or who scored in what game. After all these years, all these goals, all these titles, if you still need the next game to settle your opinion on this matter, you're probably never going to get there.

[Morb]

Another bad/average game by Messi.

[Jaivl]

Another bad/average game by Messi.

Not really. He got outplayed by half of France, but other than Di Maria's goal he created everything for ARG. Their defense was just demolished.

Mbappe with another outstanding performance.

[Oscar9992]

Messi's and CR7's career are too intertwined. "Exchanging" numerous Ballon d'ors, CLs, pichichi awards.
Even though Messi has more top-end seasons imo especially between 06-12

Ronaldo was a lot better than Messi during 2006-2008. He was the best EPL player in these years, won Ballon D'or in 2008, and finished 2'nd behind Kaka in 2007.

[Oscar9992]

Ronaldo has been better than Messi since 2013... And funny thing he is 2 years older than Messi & he is 33 y.o. right now.

Strange how things can change... He made a come back against Messi from 1-4 to 5-5.

[NinjaSheppard]

If Messi's 2 assist performance was a bad game I don't even want to imagine what people think of what Ronaldo just did. I had to check to see if he got substituted because he was invisible.

4 world cups
0 goals
0 assists
in the knockout rounds

[Jaivl]

Yeah, that was legit bad. He was covered, but not as much as Messi, and he insisted on selfishly wasting posession after posession instead of creating with the flow like vs Spain.

[Joey Wheeler]

Ronaldo-led Portugal yet to get out of the first round of the World Cup, and that's when they're not getting creamed by the USA in the group stages. The narratives propping up Ronaldo are ridiculous, nowhere close to Messi's level as a footballer, it's Lebron James vs Kevin Durant in basketball terms.

[iggymcfrack]

Ronaldo-led Portugal yet to get out of the first round of the World Cup, and that's when they're not getting creamed by the USA in the group stages. The narratives propping up Ronaldo are ridiculous, nowhere close to Messi's level as a footballer, it's Lebron James vs Kevin Durant in basketball terms.

It’s LeBron James vs. Kevin Durant in terms of how good their international teammates are. And Ronaldo’s the only one who has a major international trophy.

[TheGOATRises007]

Funny. After all that hoopla, this WC hasn't changed anything in the debate.

One thing I'll say for Ronaldo. He will likely pass Messi in Ballon D'ors won this year and he was down 4-1 at 1 point. That's the greatest achievement I've ever seen in sport.

[Jaivl]

Funny. After all that hoopla, this WC hasn't changed anything in the debate.

One thing I'll say for Ronaldo. He will likely pass Messi in Ballon D'ors won this year and he was down 4-1 at 1 point. That's the greatest achievement I've ever seen in sport.

????????

3 CL in 4 years is a vastly bigger achievement than a voting award.

[TheGOATRises007]

Funny. After all that hoopla, this WC hasn't changed anything in the debate.

One thing I'll say for Ronaldo. He will likely pass Messi in Ballon D'ors won this year and he was down 4-1 at 1 point. That's the greatest achievement I've ever seen in sport.

????????

3 CL in 4 years is a vastly bigger achievement than a voting award.

He's down 4-1 to a player that is better than him and he will overtake him.

It's a prestigious award.

It's 4 CL in 5 years btw.

[Fadeaway_J]

Funny. After all that hoopla, this WC hasn't changed anything in the debate.

One thing I'll say for Ronaldo. He will likely pass Messi in Ballon D'ors won this year and he was down 4-1 at 1 point. That's the greatest achievement I've ever seen in sport.

????????

3 CL in 4 years is a vastly bigger achievement than a voting award.

He's down 4-1 to a player that is better than him and he will overtake him.

It's a prestigious award.

It's 4 CL in 5 years btw.

Eh, the Ballon d'Or's are very closely tied to his ridiculous Champions League performances and success in recent years (although I didn't agree with a couple of them). Hard to separate them as accomplishments.