OT: Bigger gap: Messi/C. Ronaldo or LeBron/Kobe

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I don't have stats for penalties, but I think CR7 gets more chances to score that way (to be fair, he's also better at it). I believe he can score ~5 more goals from penalties than Messi in an average La Liga season.

What makes me think Messi had better peak? I guess the eye-test. I'm not super high on goals/assists, just like I'm not trusting box scores too much. I think Messi dribbled and led the ball better, warped defenses to a greater degree, all in all he was a bit more dangerous than CR7.

When it comes to teammates, I look at it differently. You named Neymar and Suarez, Alexis and Ibra, Eto'o and Henry. All of them are superscorers. One could argue they took more chances off Messi than they created for him. Real Madrid star power lies more in the midfield (Modric, Kroos, Bale, Kaka...) and CR7 has always been the first option, even MORE so than Messi. Again, don't have stats for that, just my view.

Having those teammates makes life easier for Messi either ways. The team was still built around him, they always looked to him to score. Neymar assisted him a ton, having all those star strikers created a lot of space for him to operate in. Teams think "hmm, we can't afford to key in on Messi completely because otherwise Suarez will score a hat-trick", whereas with Real, it's "Benzema can't score for ****, we can focus our defense on Ronaldo".

And if you're bringing up midfield man... Messi played with prime Xavi and Iniesta, two guys who make Modric and Kroos look mortal.

You see, there is no Iniesta/Xavi/Neymar/Fabregas around anymore, and Messi still scores a lot, two Golden Shoes in a row. And he's not even in peak form.

I don't think you can honestly claim that "Neymars" created and made more space for Messi, but DID NOT take away his scoring opportunities. You can't have it both ways... Suarez had 40 goals in La Liga once, remember?

[RB34]

The GOAT argument between Messi & Ronaldo is fairly neck and neck in my opinion, one of them will win an award or break a record which pushes them in front and then the other will do it.

However, LeBron & Kobe are not so close. From what I’ve read on this forum most people have LBJ at #2 all time and Kobe somewhere between 6-12.

[page]

Every CL tie where Messi or Ronaldo needed to produce at least one goal for his team to advance in the last 5 years:

Messi
17/18 vs. Roma: Goals needed- 1, Goals produced- 0
17/18 vs. Chelsea: Goals needed- 1, Goals produced- 3
16/17 vs. Juventus: Goals needed- 3, Goals produced- 0
16/17 vs. PSG: Goals needed- 1, Goals produced- 1
15/16 vs. Atletico: Goals needed- 2, Goals produced- 0
13/14 vs. Atletico: Goals needed- 2, Goals produced- 0
4 goals produced in 12 matches, 2 wins and 4 losses

Ronaldo
17/18 vs. Juventus: Goals needed 4, Goals produced 4
17/18 vs. PSG: Goals needed 1, Goals produced 3
16/17 vs. Atletico: Goals needed 1, Goals produced 3
16/17 vs. Bayern: Goals needed 4, Goals produced 5
15/16 vs. Wolfsburg: Goals needed 3, Goals produced 3
14/15 vs. Juventus: Goals needed 3, Goals produced 2
14/15 vs. Atletico: Goals needed 1, Goals produced 1
14/15 vs. Schalke: Goals needed 4, Goals produced 4
25 goals produced in 16 matches, 7 wins and 1 loss

I'm not bashing the stats, but isn't it convenient, to include time period bookended with Schalke and Juventus games for Ronaldo (4 goals produced each, according to your stats), but for Messi you picked two 0 goal games?
Why are you using 2013/14 season for Messi, but not for Ronaldo?
How about 2007-10 seasons?
And 2011-15?

It reminds of game winning drives in NFL. Some quarterbacks look pale because their teams are so dominant they never fall behind... or, in this comparison, they don't "Need" goals because group stages/series is already won.

Well, the last 5 years are what's available in the game logs from FoxSports.com. I tried to search for the 2012/13 stats in a convenient format and couldn't find them. Also, 5 years is a nice round number and as long as I've really been following football closely. Ronaldo isn't mentioned in 2013/14 because there wasn't one tie where Real needed him to score to win en route to winning the Champions League. Same for Messi in 2014/15.

Also, if Ronaldo's only completely dominated relative to Messi in meaningful situations for the last 5 years, that's still a pretty significant time period, right? That doesn't even include how Ronaldo had 3 individual games where he needed to score for Portugal to win the Euros while Messi lost 3 international finals where his team failed to score in extra time.

Ronaldo's stats that you posted are great, no doubt about that. BUT they only take into account very particular situations, only in Champions League, and only one stat is mentioned...

Kyle Lowry vs Chris Paul
40+ points games in regular season, 2015-18 (let's say I didn't follow NBA earlier)

Lowry:
2018-01-20 @ MIN, 40 pts
2017-01-01 @ LAL, 41 pts
2016-02-26 v CLE, 43 pts
2015-12-05 v GSW, 41 pts

Paul:
2016-02-26 @ SAC, 40 pts

4 > 1

[iggymcfrack]

Every CL tie where Messi or Ronaldo needed to produce at least one goal for his team to advance in the last 5 years:

Messi
17/18 vs. Roma: Goals needed- 1, Goals produced- 0
17/18 vs. Chelsea: Goals needed- 1, Goals produced- 3
16/17 vs. Juventus: Goals needed- 3, Goals produced- 0
16/17 vs. PSG: Goals needed- 1, Goals produced- 1
15/16 vs. Atletico: Goals needed- 2, Goals produced- 0
13/14 vs. Atletico: Goals needed- 2, Goals produced- 0
4 goals produced in 12 matches, 2 wins and 4 losses

Ronaldo
17/18 vs. Juventus: Goals needed 4, Goals produced 4
17/18 vs. PSG: Goals needed 1, Goals produced 3
16/17 vs. Atletico: Goals needed 1, Goals produced 3
16/17 vs. Bayern: Goals needed 4, Goals produced 5
15/16 vs. Wolfsburg: Goals needed 3, Goals produced 3
14/15 vs. Juventus: Goals needed 3, Goals produced 2
14/15 vs. Atletico: Goals needed 1, Goals produced 1
14/15 vs. Schalke: Goals needed 4, Goals produced 4
25 goals produced in 16 matches, 7 wins and 1 loss

I'm not bashing the stats, but isn't it convenient, to include time period bookended with Schalke and Juventus games for Ronaldo (4 goals produced each, according to your stats), but for Messi you picked two 0 goal games?
Why are you using 2013/14 season for Messi, but not for Ronaldo?
How about 2007-10 seasons?
And 2011-15?

It reminds of game winning drives in NFL. Some quarterbacks look pale because their teams are so dominant they never fall behind... or, in this comparison, they don't "Need" goals because group stages/series is already won.

Well, the last 5 years are what's available in the game logs from FoxSports.com. I tried to search for the 2012/13 stats in a convenient format and couldn't find them. Also, 5 years is a nice round number and as long as I've really been following football closely. Ronaldo isn't mentioned in 2013/14 because there wasn't one tie where Real needed him to score to win en route to winning the Champions League. Same for Messi in 2014/15.

Also, if Ronaldo's only completely dominated relative to Messi in meaningful situations for the last 5 years, that's still a pretty significant time period, right? That doesn't even include how Ronaldo had 3 individual games where he needed to score for Portugal to win the Euros while Messi lost 3 international finals where his team failed to score in extra time.

If we use the same standard for major tournaments in the same time period on games where the player needs to produce a goal to win a KO match without penalties or get a necessary result to advance from group:

Messi
2016 vs. Chile- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced 0 (extra time)
2016 vs. Venezuela- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 3
2015 vs. Chile- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produceed: 0 (extra time)
2015 vs. Colombia- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 0
2014 vs. Germany- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 0 (extra time)
2014 vs. Netherlands- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 0 (extra time)
2014 vs. Switzerland- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 1 (extra time)
4 goals produced in 7 matches, 2-4-1 record

Ronaldo
2016 vs. Wales: Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 2
2016 vs. Poland: Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 0 (extra time)
2016 vs. Croatia: Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 1 (extra time)
2016 vs. Hungary: Goals needed to advance: 3, Goals produced: 3
6 goals produced in 4 matches, 2-2-0 record

If we account for extra time, Messi and Ronaldo spent the exact same amount on the field in situations where goals were needed. Just under 21 full matches each. Ronaldo produced 31 goals compared to 8 for Messi. A 21 match sample isn't nothing. That's more than half a club season of very important meaningful matches. 31-8 is a massive difference.

[iggymcfrack]

I'm not bashing the stats, but isn't it convenient, to include time period bookended with Schalke and Juventus games for Ronaldo (4 goals produced each, according to your stats), but for Messi you picked two 0 goal games?
Why are you using 2013/14 season for Messi, but not for Ronaldo?
How about 2007-10 seasons?
And 2011-15?

It reminds of game winning drives in NFL. Some quarterbacks look pale because their teams are so dominant they never fall behind... or, in this comparison, they don't "Need" goals because group stages/series is already won.

Well, the last 5 years are what's available in the game logs from FoxSports.com. I tried to search for the 2012/13 stats in a convenient format and couldn't find them. Also, 5 years is a nice round number and as long as I've really been following football closely. Ronaldo isn't mentioned in 2013/14 because there wasn't one tie where Real needed him to score to win en route to winning the Champions League. Same for Messi in 2014/15.

Also, if Ronaldo's only completely dominated relative to Messi in meaningful situations for the last 5 years, that's still a pretty significant time period, right? That doesn't even include how Ronaldo had 3 individual games where he needed to score for Portugal to win the Euros while Messi lost 3 international finals where his team failed to score in extra time.

Ronaldo's stats that you posted are great, no doubt about that. BUT they only take into account very particular situations, only in Champions League, and only one stat is mentioned...

Kyle Lowry vs Chris Paul
40+ points games in regular season, 2015-18 (let's say I didn't follow NBA earlier)

Lowry:
2018-01-20 @ MIN, 40 pts
2017-01-01 @ LAL, 41 pts
2016-02-26 v CLE, 43 pts
2015-12-05 v GSW, 41 pts

Paul:
2016-02-26 @ SAC, 40 pts

4 > 1

(1) Neither Paul or Lowry gets their primary value from scoring
(2) I didn't use some arbitrary cutoff. I looked at all the most important matches where they needed to score. It's similar to looking at all elimination games in the playoffs for NBA.
(3) You had a 5 game sample in your hypothetical example. I have a 40 game sample from a sport with less contests per year.

[Joey Wheeler]

He just single-handedly tied Spain.

1 game doesn't define an entire career.

He has a better goal-per-game ratio than Messi despite playing on worse international teams and against tougher international competition most of the time (the Euros).

Who's the best player Ronaldo's played with on Portugal? Nani?

It's already been extensively proven that his Messi's teams are not better. But let's address this 'tougher competition' bit; Europe has a lot of cannon fodder and some downright amateur teams like Andorra, Faroe Islands, Luxembourg, etc... the South American zone is way more competitive, every team is good, no amateur teams to pad your stats against.

When it's all said and done, I feel more people will have Messi ahead when it comes to peak, but career wise?

Why though? What has Messi done that Ronaldo hasn't done, and that too Messi did it with better teams? Kroos/Modric is an amazing midfield pairing but it's not a patch on prime Xavi/Iniesta. Ronnie matches the numbers young Messi put up but with a worse supporting cast. Forget about the midfield, look at the strikers Messi has played with that let him have acres of space: Eto'o/Henry, Pedro/Ibra, Pedro/Villa, Pedro/Alexis, Pedro/Neymar, and then SUAREZ/NEYMAR! Not only do they create all that space for him but they allow him to take a night off.

Ronaldo has been playing with **** BENZEMA who's been trash other than a few games a season for a while now. Ronaldo HAS to show up every night and murder it, especially in the CL, or it doesn't happen for Madrid, because his Pippen Bale can't stay on the pitch. For the second half of his career in particular, Messi has been able to relax and let Suarez/Neymar run the show if he's not feeling it.

This is so hilarious wrong that you'd have to think it's a parody or something. The bold would be the answer if you ask something to create an alternate reality that's 100% different from this one... basically everything you say is in direct contradiction with the match data we have.

Back to reality: Ronaldo was basically invisible in SF and F of CL both this season and in 2016 (and 2014 final too for that matter), RM won anyway. In the one year where RM won La Liga recently, they won all 9 games where Ronaldo didn't play. The only time they beat Barca H2H in recent years, Ronaldo played 30 minutes of a 180 minute tie, in those 30 minutes the score was 1-1, in the remaining 150 RM won 4-0. There's no evidence that RM even need Ronaldo to win, let alone that it 'doesn't happen if he doesn't show up every night and murder it'. Even their goalscoring rates don't drop when Ronaldo is out.

Meanwhile, Barcelona completely tank without Messi or when Messi is off. Last season La Liga was lost in games where Messi rested and Barca lost at home to Alaves and the like. This season Barca were looking at an unbeaten La Liga season, Messi took a rest and they lost to Levante. You'd have a better point for the first half of Messi's career, with peak Xavi and Iniesta; that Barca team was really strong even without Messi, 2013-onwards it struggles to even beat La Liga fodder without him.

[page]

I'm not bashing the stats, but isn't it convenient, to include time period bookended with Schalke and Juventus games for Ronaldo (4 goals produced each, according to your stats), but for Messi you picked two 0 goal games?
Why are you using 2013/14 season for Messi, but not for Ronaldo?
How about 2007-10 seasons?
And 2011-15?

It reminds of game winning drives in NFL. Some quarterbacks look pale because their teams are so dominant they never fall behind... or, in this comparison, they don't "Need" goals because group stages/series is already won.

Well, the last 5 years are what's available in the game logs from FoxSports.com. I tried to search for the 2012/13 stats in a convenient format and couldn't find them. Also, 5 years is a nice round number and as long as I've really been following football closely. Ronaldo isn't mentioned in 2013/14 because there wasn't one tie where Real needed him to score to win en route to winning the Champions League. Same for Messi in 2014/15.

Also, if Ronaldo's only completely dominated relative to Messi in meaningful situations for the last 5 years, that's still a pretty significant time period, right? That doesn't even include how Ronaldo had 3 individual games where he needed to score for Portugal to win the Euros while Messi lost 3 international finals where his team failed to score in extra time.

If we use the same standard for major tournaments in the same time period on games where the player needs to produce a goal to win a KO match without penalties or get a necessary result to advance from group:

Messi
2016 vs. Chile- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced 0 (extra time)
2016 vs. Venezuela- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 3
2015 vs. Chile- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produceed: 0 (extra time)
2015 vs. Colombia- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 0
2014 vs. Germany- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 0 (extra time)
2014 vs. Netherlands- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 0 (extra time)
2014 vs. Switzerland- Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 1 (extra time)
4 goals produced in 7 matches, 2-4-1 record

Ronaldo
2016 vs. Wales: Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 2
2016 vs. Poland: Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 0 (extra time)
2016 vs. Croatia: Goals needed to win: 1, Goals produced: 1 (extra time)
2016 vs. Hungary: Goals needed to advance: 3, Goals produced: 3
6 goals produced in 4 matches, 2-2-0 record

If we account for extra time, Messi and Ronaldo spent the exact same amount on the field in situations where goals were needed. Just under 21 full matches each. Ronaldo produced 31 goals compared to 8 for Messi. A 21 match sample isn't nothing. That's more than half a club season of very important meaningful matches. 31-8 is a massive difference.

I like that you included their opponents. Wales and Hungary are joke teams. Poland is/was much weaker than FIFA ranking suggests, hasn't really cracked TOP20 even in recent years, and they might be the best opponent in a given stretch,

On the other hand we have Germany, Chile, Netherlands, Colombia. Switzerland has been comparable to Poland/Croatia and they occupy fifth spot in your list. This basically the same team that managed 1-1 draw against Brazil a week ago. Only Venezuela was poor (but still better than Hungary).

I don't think we are anything close to reasonable comparison when we take international matches. As I said, Argentina just screams "disappointment" all over the place. Different teams, different torunaments and arguably differing positions/playing styles. It's not a 40-yard dash.

[Joey Wheeler]

Every CL tie where Messi or Ronaldo needed to produce at least one goal for his team to advance in the last 5 years:
(goals produced = goals + assists)

You seem to be new to this football thing. It's a team sport, teams don't need individual players to score, they need someone to score. Real Madrid's goalscoring rate has little to no variance whether Ronaldo is on the pitch or not. Even putting that aside, this is an extremely convenient argument: when Ronaldo doesn't produce but RM win anyway, his goals weren't necessary so it's no big deal; whenever Messi doesn't produce, Barca almost invariably lose.

Ronaldo fans/Messi haters actually make a better argument for Messi being the GOAT than the Messi fans themselves with this reliance on false narratives and complete avoidance of actual match data when trying to build a case against Messi. The funny thing is that even under your inane assertion that goals and assists are the only way to impact a football match, Messi is still clearly superior anyway, his career rates dwarf those of any other active players, including Ronaldo.

[iggymcfrack]

Every CL tie where Messi or Ronaldo needed to produce at least one goal for his team to advance in the last 5 years:
(goals produced = goals + assists)

You seem to be new to this football thing. It's a team sport, teams don't need individual players to score, they need someone to score. Real Madrid's goalscoring rate has little to no variance whether Ronaldo is on the pitch or not. Even putting that aside, this is an extremely convenient argument: when Ronaldo doesn't produce but RM win anyway, his goals weren't necessary so it's no big deal; whenever Messi doesn't produce, Barca almost invariably lose.

Ronaldo fans/Messi haters actually make a better argument for Messi being the GOAT than the Messi fans themselves with this reliance on false narratives and complete avoidance of actual match data when trying to build a case against Messi. The funny thing is that even under your inane assertion that goals and assists are the only way to impact a football match, Messi is still clearly superior anyway, his career rates dwarf those of any other active players, including Ronaldo.

My argument was never that it’s all about goals. That’s a straw man. My argument was that Messi’s the most talented player to ever play football, and that the way he plays on Saturday afternoons against Getafe and Deportivo is at a higher level than anyone else can reach. But the fact that he disappears in every big match while Ronaldo consistently comes up huge still makes Ronaldo more valuable. Now sit back, relax, and watch the GOAT for a while.

[iggymcfrack]

Sick header from the GOAT, hope you tuned in in time to see it! How many goals does Ronaldo have to score to be as valuable as a scoreless Messi game when anyway? Will another hat trick do it?

[Jaivl]

Sick header from the GOAT, hope you tuned in in time to see it! How many goals does Ronaldo have to score to be as valuable as a scoreless Messi game when anyway? Will another hat trick do it?

And another chance created for Guedes, who again missed it. He's playing wonderfully this WC. Thank Zidane's rotations.

[iggymcfrack]

Sick header from the GOAT, hope you tuned in in time to see it! How many goals does Ronaldo have to score to be as valuable as a scoreless Messi game when anyway? Will another hat trick do it?

And another chance created for Guedes, who again missed it. He's playing wonderfully this WC.

Yeah, that was an incredible pass.

[Joey Wheeler]

Every CL tie where Messi or Ronaldo needed to produce at least one goal for his team to advance in the last 5 years:
(goals produced = goals + assists)

You seem to be new to this football thing. It's a team sport, teams don't need individual players to score, they need someone to score. Real Madrid's goalscoring rate has little to no variance whether Ronaldo is on the pitch or not. Even putting that aside, this is an extremely convenient argument: when Ronaldo doesn't produce but RM win anyway, his goals weren't necessary so it's no big deal; whenever Messi doesn't produce, Barca almost invariably lose.

Ronaldo fans/Messi haters actually make a better argument for Messi being the GOAT than the Messi fans themselves with this reliance on false narratives and complete avoidance of actual match data when trying to build a case against Messi. The funny thing is that even under your inane assertion that goals and assists are the only way to impact a football match, Messi is still clearly superior anyway, his career rates dwarf those of any other active players, including Ronaldo.

My argument was never that it’s all about goals. That’s a straw man. My argument was that Messi’s the most talented player to ever play football, and that the way he plays on Saturday afternoons against Getafe and Deportivo is at a higher level than anyone else can reach. But the fact that he disappears in every big match while Ronaldo consistently comes up huge still makes Ronaldo more valuable. Now sit back, relax, and watch the GOAT for a while.

Yeah, except this has been proved to be completely false. There are far more instances of Ronaldo coming up limp in big matches than coming up huge. I know facts can often derail cool narratives, but we still need to use them.

Sick header from the GOAT, hope you tuned in in time to see it! How many goals does Ronaldo have to score to be as valuable as a scoreless Messi game when anyway? Will another hat trick do it?

Why wouldn't I tune in time? Still 29 hours left for the match, no hurries. Not really expecting any headed goals from the GOAT, but you never know, I wasn't expecting it either in CL 2009 final and yet...

As for Ronaldo, he is playing an amazing World Cup so far, best I've seen him play in a long time. But you really need to get your story straight; either only 'big' games matter and Ronaldo is essentially peaking in irrelevant group stage matches, or all matches matter and all your previous arguments in this thread are therefore invalid (aside from being mostly relying on false information anyway, even if they were valid).

[NinjaSheppard]

Cristiano Ronaldo La Liga victories since he moved to Real Madrid: 2
Cristiano Ronaldo Third Place Finishes since he moved to Real Madrid: 2

Ronaldo this year no showed La Liga until Barcelona was up 18 points in December and then started scoring a bunch of meaningless goals in meaningless games.

I honestly think the only people who think Ronaldo>Messi are either

1) EPL watchers who only see the two play in CL
2) Real Madrid/Portugal supporters

[PigsOnTheWing]

The question is a bit "silly" as it is proved by the poll. Personally I think both Messi and CR7 are slightly overrated by the casual fans but despite this I have them 3# and 6# all-time. Nontheless, it's great that sometimes there is a good debate over football also here, because the general soccer board is too quiet. My ultimate dream would be to do a top 100 project on football similar to the one on basketball (though I admit it'd be much more difficult since in football there are over 100 leagues and it has an history over 120 years long), because there is no internet forum like RealGM for football.

[Baski]

Definitely LeBron/Kobe. Messi/C. Ronaldo was a joke a few years ago, but Ronaldo has been on an absolute tear in recent years. At this moment Messi only has a peak argument over him. But if Ronaldo continues to play this well while racking up accolades and UCLs (and hopefully a WC) like he has been, Messi will be left in the dust.

[Mrakar]

I dont know how can this even be a topic. Lebron has clearly surpased Kobe and Messi and Ronaldo are fairly close, i would even pick Ronaldo over Messi. Ronaldo proved he can play in different teams and different conditions. Messi has showed his brilliance only in Barca, while he couldnt get Argentina over the hump for so many years.

[TheGOATRises007]

Since he's moved to Real, he has 62 in 83. That's a .75 scoring rate to a 1.02 rate for Real.

Messi at Argentina has a .51 scoring rate for Argentina and for Barca has .87.

So not only does Ronaldo have a higher standard at both but Messi also drops of a LOT more from club to country DESPITE playing with better teammates by FAR at BOTH.

Ronaldo is better.

This argument of using goals to determine who's better is just as silly as using just PPG to determine who's a better player.

Take out Ronaldo from Real, and Messi from Barcelona AT THIS moment. Which team is better? If you say Barcelona, you're lying to yourself.

The national team is more close. They'd both be awful with Ronaldo & Messi.

Argentina aren't this powerhouse team some believe they are. Their team is 'good' on paper, but they're not cohesive and they have no visible structure. They lost 6-1 to Spain a while back without Messi. And he had to save them in the last game to qualify during qualifiers with a hat-trick.

This notion that Messi has always had way better teammates is complete nonsense. They've both played on great teams.

FFS I literally used those numbers because you were talking about them.

Without Ronaldo there are no goals on this Real Madrid squad. Closest would be Bale and he is too injury-prone. The midfield is great, yeah, but a front-three of Benzema, Bale/Isco and Asensio isn't scoring nearly enough goals to be competitive.

Meanwhile, Barca at least has Suarez. The guy has scored 152 goals in 198 games for Barca. He is more than capable of taking over a large portion of Messi's goalscoring duties. They'd lose out on his creation but having Suarez mitigates more of losing Messi than Real would suffer from losing Ronaldo. Without Messi Coutinho and Dembele would take on bigger roles too. Heck, Suarez-Coutinho-Dembele is not much worse than the Suarez-Sterling-Sturridge combination that almost won the Premier League a few years ago.

Real doesn't have anyone to do that, they're utterly dependant on Ronaldo. If Bale gets injured they'd absolutely struggle to score.

Well both their productions do drop. It's inarguable.

Messi didn't play vs Levante and Barcelona looked clueless for the 1st half and lost their unbeaten run.

The current incarnation of Barcelona are not good without Messi.

They're incredibly dependent on him akin to the Cavs and Lebron.

Real aren't as dependent on Ronaldo. He was basically a no show vs Bayern and Liverpool, and Real still won.

[TheGOATRises007]

Every CL tie where Messi or Ronaldo needed to produce at least one goal for his team to advance in the last 5 years:
(goals produced = goals + assists)

You seem to be new to this football thing. It's a team sport, teams don't need individual players to score, they need someone to score. Real Madrid's goalscoring rate has little to no variance whether Ronaldo is on the pitch or not. Even putting that aside, this is an extremely convenient argument: when Ronaldo doesn't produce but RM win anyway, his goals weren't necessary so it's no big deal; whenever Messi doesn't produce, Barca almost invariably lose.

Ronaldo fans/Messi haters actually make a better argument for Messi being the GOAT than the Messi fans themselves with this reliance on false narratives and complete avoidance of actual match data when trying to build a case against Messi. The funny thing is that even under your inane assertion that goals and assists are the only way to impact a football match, Messi is still clearly superior anyway, his career rates dwarf those of any other active players, including Ronaldo.

My argument was never that it’s all about goals. That’s a straw man. My argument was that Messi’s the most talented player to ever play football, and that the way he plays on Saturday afternoons against Getafe and Deportivo is at a higher level than anyone else can reach. But the fact that he disappears in every big match while Ronaldo consistently comes up huge still makes Ronaldo more valuable. Now sit back, relax, and watch the GOAT for a while.

Why do you keep pushing this BS narrative?

It's unequivocally false.

[iggymcfrack]

You seem to be new to this football thing. It's a team sport, teams don't need individual players to score, they need someone to score. Real Madrid's goalscoring rate has little to no variance whether Ronaldo is on the pitch or not. Even putting that aside, this is an extremely convenient argument: when Ronaldo doesn't produce but RM win anyway, his goals weren't necessary so it's no big deal; whenever Messi doesn't produce, Barca almost invariably lose.

Ronaldo fans/Messi haters actually make a better argument for Messi being the GOAT than the Messi fans themselves with this reliance on false narratives and complete avoidance of actual match data when trying to build a case against Messi. The funny thing is that even under your inane assertion that goals and assists are the only way to impact a football match, Messi is still clearly superior anyway, his career rates dwarf those of any other active players, including Ronaldo.

My argument was never that it’s all about goals. That’s a straw man. My argument was that Messi’s the most talented player to ever play football, and that the way he plays on Saturday afternoons against Getafe and Deportivo is at a higher level than anyone else can reach. But the fact that he disappears in every big match while Ronaldo consistently comes up huge still makes Ronaldo more valuable. Now sit back, relax, and watch the GOAT for a while.

Why do you keep pushing this BS narrative?

It's unequivocally false.

Sorry, should have qualified. Meant that he disappears in every big match for the last 5 years. I heard he was pretty good in like 2011, but I wasn’t really following the game closely back then.