Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol

[Matt15]

All in their peaks, how would you rank them?

[MrBigShot]

McHale
Pau
Brand
Draymond

[Jiminy Glick]

gasol
green
mchale
brand

[eminence]

Draymond

Brand
Gasol
McHale

Prefer Brand/Gasol as I think they give me a bit more positional versatility as 4/5's. Dray I just have as a entirely different level.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

Draymond on a different level when he doesn’t even come close to matching the other three’s ability to create high level offense for themselves? Yeah, his strengths are ideal when he’s playing with Steph/Klay/KD, and shooters everywhere but what if a team needed him to be a 1B, or a second option ? I don’t think he could do that.

[dhsilv2]

Hmm

1. dray - this is pretty easy given he's by far the best defender here, by far the best passer, by far the best shooter and while he's not the elite scorer, scoring is easier to replace.
2. Gasol - I just have to go with him. He was debatable the best player on a title team though it was a 1a 1b system.
3. Brand - there's case for him higher.
4. McHale - feels odd to have him here, but the guy really just had that one great year in 87 but it was a sub par playoff run. Brand was really great in his play off run in 06

[dhsilv2]

Draymond on a different level when he doesn’t even come close to matching the other three’s ability to create high level offense for themselves? Yeah, his strengths are ideal when he’s playing with Steph/Klay/KD, and shooters everywhere but what if a team needed him to be a 1B, or a second option ? I don’t think he could do that.

KD? This is about peaks and KD wasn't on the team when he peaked.

[Cavsfansince84]

This isn't really a great comparison because it really depends upon what the team needs. I am not buying the idea that scorers like McHale and Gasol are that easily replaced either. McHale is like a top 10 post scorer of all time and was also a guy who was making all defensive teams at his peak. Gasol was good enough to lead championship teams in win shares in both the regular season and playoffs. He had a huge impact with his scoring, passing, rebounding and to some degree rim protection with his incredible length. Brand was very good also, just not quite on the level of these other guys. I would put it

McHale
Gasol
Green
Brand

Though if its a matter of having a team which is built to take advantage of everything Draymond does and has ridiculous 3 pt shooting maybe you'd take him first. I don't think you would otherwise.

[Missing Rings]

Draymond on a different level when he doesn’t even come close to matching the other three’s ability to create high level offense for themselves? Yeah, his strengths are ideal when he’s playing with Steph/Klay/KD, and shooters everywhere but what if a team needed him to be a 1B, or a second option ? I don’t think he could do that.

1. Draymond Green was creating a high level of offense before Kevin Durant. The Warriors did this thing in 2016 where they won 73 regular season games in large part because of Draymond.

Draymond Green finished 3rd in total passes while finishing 7th in the league in Assists. He was a key part for the Warriors offensive brilliance in 2016 with his ability to keep the ball moving and creating a pass-first environment. Did he benefit from Curry? Of course he did. Pau Gasol benefited from Kobe and McHale benefited from Larry Freaking Bird but you don't ever hear arguments diminishing their greatness because of two top 15 players of all-time. Yet somehow people have the audacity to rip into Draymond Green and talk about him like he is a fringe NBA-caliber player.

2. Why do we need to measure players based on their ability to be 1B or second options? If you have ever played basketball you know their are a lot of ways to have an impact on the game. If you have ever watched basketball you know their are a lot of ways to have an impact on the game. When I see people bash Draymond Green I always wonder if they A) Have ever played basketball and B) Have ever watched basketball.

[Narigo]

Mchale
Brand
Gasol
Green

[70sFan]

I don't care about fit into modern era (and all fit well in my opinion) and the most dominant was Kevin for me. It's far from truth that he had one great season, he was basically the same player in 1985-89 period. Fantastic defender (better than Gasol) and clearly better offensive player than Green for me. Green is fantastic player because he's elite defender and also a plus offensive player, but his play on that end is extremely overrated. He's not close to Gasol or McHale offensively.

I can't comment on Brand because I've seen very little of his prime. I know he's interesting player who fits my PF model though, maybe I should learn more about him?

[JohnWall2]

1. McHale
2. Gasol
3. Dray
4. Brand

[Hawk]

1. Pau
2. McHale
3. Draymond
4. Brand

[Owly]

Gut response is this is heavily contextual.

If you want a low-post scorer on great efficiency (who isn't passing too often). A good defender, slightly weak rebounder, some shooting range. It's McHale.

If you want a PF who's good at everything for a PF, without one exceptional skill that's Brand.

If you want an old school "pivot" passing (and still also high efficiency scoring) big man from the high or low post. It's Gasol.

If you want a modern game, elite defender who kinda, sorta stretches the floor though teams might live with him shooting (.327 from 3, .707 FT%, .328 from 16ft to 3, .317 from 10-16ft), meh scorer, excellent playmaker, who has excelled in the one pro situation he's been in, but some are skeptical about sustaining his apparent impact elsewhere. More fiery and volatile than all the other guys. That's Green.

When you're doing it for just one year, and so considerably less data (and perhaps moreso when you aren't talking about absolute clear cut top players on a title level team) it feels harder to aggregate all scenarios. Do you give Gasol more credit for "knowing" that he can work with a Kobe, where you might guess that Brand could do as good a job? What do you do about having less data for McHale. What do you do about McHale breaking his foot ... is this certain (or likely) to happen being what did happen, or is it more hypothetical. How much are you going to read into playoff performance/numbers from only single year?

Interesting question ...

[Jaivl]

Hmm

1. dray - this is pretty easy given he's by far the best defender here, by far the best passer, by far the best shooter and while he's not the elite scorer, scoring is easier to replace.
2. Gasol - I just have to go with him. He was debatable the best player on a title team though it was a 1a 1b system.
3. Brand - there's case for him higher.
4. McHale - feels odd to have him here, but the guy really just had that one great year in 87 but it was a sub par playoff run. Brand was really great in his play off run in 06

Green is neither "by far the best passer" nor "by far the best shooter". Hell, he's not even the best shooter (Pau clearly is). Probably not "by far the best defender" too.

[eminence]

I don't care about fit into modern era (and all fit well in my opinion) and the most dominant was Kevin for me. It's far from truth that he had one great season, he was basically the same player in 1985-89 period. Fantastic defender (better than Gasol) and clearly better offensive player than Green for me. Green is fantastic player because he's elite defender and also a plus offensive player, but his play on that end is extremely overrated. He's not close to Gasol or McHale offensively.

I can't comment on Brand because I've seen very little of his prime. I know he's interesting player who fits my PF model though, maybe I should learn more about him?

Brand is a bit of a forgotten star. I liked him as a player, had a lot more faceup to his game than any of the other players here, good midrange shooter, think he could have stretched to 3 today. One of the first bigs to start the shorter/huge wingspan trend of the modern era (~6'8 with a 7'6 wingspan).

[Jack Dempsey]

People talk about Malone, KG, Dirk but too me the 2nd best PF of all time (after Duncan) is Kevin McHale. Extremly underrated because of not having stats that blow your mind but he had an amazing skillset for a Power Forward. He's by far the best out of this group.

After that, it depends on what you need. Green is like a MLB to me, a defensive general if you want so. He guards everyone and no one at the same time. But he needs a couple of really good offensive players around him to be really efficient.
Gasol was a great second option, maybe even the most important player on that Lakers championship teams. He was like a glue guy playing the Center position.
Brand was an undersized PF that could do it all. He was a first option but not an elite one.

[LA Bird]

Considering Gasol in his peak 2009 season was less impactful on a per possession basis than Odom and peak Draymond was basically a supercharged Odom with better defense and 3pt shooting, I am not seeing why Gasol is ranked ahead of Green in most lists here. He is a better scorer for sure but the per 36 offensive volume difference between them is around:

09 Gasol - 18 points, 3 assists on 62% TS
16 Green - 14 points, 7 assists on 58% TS (38% 3pt shot)

There is no way that offensive gap comes anywhere close to the massive defensive lead Draymond has over Gasol.

McHale is 1, Draymond is 2. Not sure about Brand but he and Gasol is clearly behind the first two.

[dhsilv2]

Hmm

1. dray - this is pretty easy given he's by far the best defender here, by far the best passer, by far the best shooter and while he's not the elite scorer, scoring is easier to replace.
2. Gasol - I just have to go with him. He was debatable the best player on a title team though it was a 1a 1b system.
3. Brand - there's case for him higher.
4. McHale - feels odd to have him here, but the guy really just had that one great year in 87 but it was a sub par playoff run. Brand was really great in his play off run in 06

Green is neither "by far the best passer" nor "by far the best shooter". Hell, he's not even the best shooter (Pau clearly is). Probably not "by far the best defender" too.

The passing and the defense here aren't remotely close. Shooting, while prime I'd consider him and Pau close. Peak Dray shot 38.8% from 3, but Pau was better from anywhere else so that's fair.

[dhsilv2]

I don't care about fit into modern era (and all fit well in my opinion) and the most dominant was Kevin for me. It's far from truth that he had one great season, he was basically the same player in 1985-89 period. Fantastic defender (better than Gasol) and clearly better offensive player than Green for me. Green is fantastic player because he's elite defender and also a plus offensive player, but his play on that end is extremely overrated. He's not close to Gasol or McHale offensively.

I can't comment on Brand because I've seen very little of his prime. I know he's interesting player who fits my PF model though, maybe I should learn more about him?

I wish we had more granular passing data on McHale, but blackhole is the first word that comes to my mind when I think about him. Dray's 2016 season is very close to peak McHale offensively. And for what it is worth 87 McHale has massively better stats than any other year for him. Perhaps injuries around him were a factor (though I don't see that) or coaching...but it is a huge outlier in terms of box score metrics for him.

As for defense, that's tricky. I tend to see Gasol and McHale about equal as defenders. Neither were great but neither were bad. Gasol is a better rim protector and McHale is a better man defender. My gut is Gasol might be the better defensive rebounder, but both played with other big men who were strong rebounders so it is more difficult to judge that on box scores. At the end of the day passing is more valuable than iso scoring all else equal, and there is a huge gap in passing ability between gasol and mchale.