The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project (And Another PROJECT)

[Gibson22]

So I have in mind to do these two projects.

The first one is simply to vote for the best 10 defenders in each position. I'd like to do it simply because I find it pointless to rank defenders without distinguishing positions. I think we will throw out like 15-20 names for each position and then we will proceed with the polls.

The second one, which I tought about like a year ago and I proposed it to some guys, is a project about the best players all time great players faced in the playoffs. I'm talking about how good these players were when they faced them. To be more clear, ray allen is not that big of an all time great and (eventually) we will not do it for a guy like him, but, imagine if ray allen was a top ten all time, we arrive at him and we start to rank the best players he faced in the playoff: in the 2010 playoff he faced cavs shaq, but we obviously will consider him as 2009-10 shaq (a normal player) not as 1993-2011 shaq, a top 5-10 player, so, he would probably would not be in consideration for the best (I don't know how many) players ray allen faced in the playoffs.

Same thing for Derrick Rose. 2011 Rose will be one of the best players Lebron faced, but 2018 Rose is not one of the best Harden (again, pretend Harden is that big of an all time great) has faced.

Are you interested in these projects? If you are, we will start throwing out 15-20 names for the best defensive PGs ever and when we will have enough names we will start with the polls.

Sorry for any eventual language mistake.

[PistolPeteJR]

Like the two ideas.

In regards to the project about defense, I think you'll find that it's even more difficult for people to chime in on this, because many people really don't understand what proper defense is (ie. blocking shots or grabbing double-digit rebounds doesn't automatically make you a good defender). In addition, I foresee issues with people chiming in on players from the 70s and 80s.

As a result, votes will either be biased or all over the place. Can you think of a way to try and bring stability to this?

[Gibson22]

Like the two ideas.

In regards to the project about defense, I think you'll find that it's even more difficult for people to chime in on this, because many people really don't understand what proper defense is (ie. blocking shots or grabbing double-digit rebounds doesn't automatically make you a good defender). In addition, I foresee issues with people chiming in on players from the 70s and 80s.

As a result, votes will either be biased or all over the place. Can you think of a way to try and bring stability to this?

No

But if someone suggests something I will do it

[eminence]

The defense one would be fun for sure, would it be a prime level ranking? I find it very tough to come up with career defensive value numbers.

[Gibson22]

Ok Maybe I will start throwing out names for the PG positions, purposedly without an order (tony allen sg, moncrief sg)

Chris Paul
Patrick Beverley
Gary Payton
Eric Snow
Mo cheeks
Walt Frazier
Jason Kidd
Jrue Holiday
Mookie Blaylock
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson (PG OR SG? You tell me)
Norm Van lier

[henshao]

Is it time to throw names out yet?

Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, John Stockton
Michael Jordan, Tony Allen, Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen, Lebron James, Kawhi Leonard
Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dennis Rodman
Hakeem Olajuwon, Mark Eaton, Bill Russell

[penbeast0]

Sounds fun. Don't know about stability but the defensive positions will be an issue. Might I suggest:

Small guard (limited to players listed in B-R at 6'3 or under) -- otherwise being able to guard
Wing (bigger guards or small forwards who can swing to guard)
Combo forwards (players who you would be most comfortable guarding the two forward spots rather than trying to guard traditional post up centers or quicker shooting guards)
Post defenders (players who play the majority of their time against power forwards and centers though part of defending those positions is going out on the floor against those who do)

[Gibson22]

Is it time to throw names out yet?

Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, John Stockton
Michael Jordan, Tony Allen, Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen, Lebron James, Kawhi Leonard
Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dennis Rodman
Hakeem Olajuwon, Mark Eaton, Bill Russell

I would start with pg only for now

[Gibson22]

Sounds fun. Don't know about stability but the defensive positions will be an issue. Might I suggest:

Small guard (limited to players listed in B-R at 6'3 or under) -- otherwise being able to guard
Wing (bigger guards or small forwards who can swing to guard)
Combo forwards (players who you would be most comfortable guarding the two forward spots rather than trying to guard traditional post up centers or quicker shooting guards)
Post defenders (players who play the majority of their time against power forwards and centers though part of defending those positions is going out on the floor against those who do)

I considered this but I'd prefer to do it with the listed positions

[Gibson22]

BTW You could throw names for all the positions

[PigsOnTheWing]

I'd like to participate as much as I can. I think it's the first time there is a defense only project on RealGM so it's cool.
The other one is a bit strange and even if you feel like doing it anyway, I'd still focus on one at a time, but obviously it's up to you.

I've never taken part in a project here so other posters may add more on this, but I feel the two most important things in a project are: criterias, more or less strict, that every poster has to follow and and a voting panel made by knowledgeable an reliable people.
As for the criterias, I'd suggest doing it for peaks or extended peaks (something like 3-4 seasons) otherwise if we do a career list it becomes more complex because then we should consider also longevity and for defense alone it must be hard.
Another thing, do you want it to become a ranking (so with number 1, 2 etc.) or just a list without positions?

Meanwhile, I'll try my best for improving my knowledge on older players and eras when defensive statistics were non existent.

[Gibson22]

I'd like to participate as much as I can. I think it's the first time there is a defense only project on RealGM so it's cool.
The other one is a bit strange and even if you feel like doing it anyway, I'd still focus on one at a time, but obviously it's up to you.

I've never taken part in a project here so other posters may add more on this, but I feel the two most important things in a project are: criterias, more or less strict, that every poster has to follow and and a voting panel made by knowledgeable an reliable people.
As for the criterias, I'd suggest doing it for peaks or extended peaks (something like 3-4 seasons) otherwise if we do a career list it becomes more complex because then we should consider also longevity and for defense alone it must be hard.
Another thing, do you want it to become a ranking (so with number 1, 2 etc.) or just a list without positions?

Meanwhile, I'll try my best for improving my knowledge on older players and eras when defensive statistics were non existent.

Yes, I will start with the best defenders. My idea would be to do a career list, but I obviously wanna know what do you guys prefer. And yes, I absolutely want it to become a ranking.

Honestly I tought we would do the rankings with poll threads, I would certainly prefer to do it as you said but it'd need to gain a lot more traction, I don't know if that's possible

[Gibson22]

Is it time to throw names out yet?

Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, John Stockton
Michael Jordan, Tony Allen, Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen, Lebron James, Kawhi Leonard
Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dennis Rodman
Hakeem Olajuwon, Mark Eaton, Bill Russell

What I meant do is: we come out with 15ish names for each position. Then, we start threads (don't know If in the classical poll form or the way they do the top 100 project) to nominate the number 1 ever defensive pg, then the 2nd, 3rd etc etc.

[70sFan]

I'd love to participate, but I'd like to know more about the rules. Defensive impact is much harder to measure than offensive one and I don’t use most of the stats (basic and advanced) to judge defense. This can be problematic, if anyone here thinks that eye test isn't good way to measure impact then I'll respect that and I won't participate.

[Gibson22]

I'd love to participate, but I'd like to know more about the rules. Defensive impact is much harder to measure than offensive one and I don’t use most of the stats (basic and advanced) to judge defense. This can be problematic, if anyone here thinks that eye test isn't good way to measure impact then I'll respect that and I won't participate.

Whatever is your criteria is a respectable criteria. (Is criteria right? Or is it criterion)

[Narigo]

Throwing some names out there

Don Buse
Norm Van Lier
Bobby Jones
Dennis Rodman
Elvin Hayes
Nate McMillian
Walt Frazier
Mookie Blaylock
Alvin Robertson
Michael Cooper
John Havichek
Shane Battier
Maurice Stokes

[penbeast0]

Throwing some names out there

Don Buse
Norm Van Lier
Bobby Jones
Dennis Rodman
Elvin Hayes
Nate McMillian
Walt Frazier
Mookie Blaylock
Alvin Robertson
Michael Cooper
John Havichek
Shane Battier
Maurice Stokes

Only one I never saw of those is Stokes though certainly my POV has changed over the years, but even there, how good were Mikan, Dolph Schayes, Slater Martin, etc.?

[Gibson22]

SG
Tony allen
MJ
Butler
Moncrief
Avery Bradley
Danny Green?
Micahel Cooper
Alvin Robertson
Wade
Doug Christie
Jerry sloan
Klay
kobe?

IMPORTANT:

(Dumars pg or sg? andre roberson sg or sf? fat lever pg or sg? Don buse sg or pg? Dennis Johnson sg or pg? Jerry west sg or pg? Norm van lier pg or sg?)

[trex_8063]

Ok Maybe I will start throwing out names for the PG positions, purposedly without an order (tony allen sg, moncrief sg)

Chris Paul
Patrick Beverley
Gary Payton
Eric Snow
Mo cheeks
Walt Frazier
Jason Kidd
Jrue Holiday
Mookie Blaylock
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson (PG OR SG? You tell me)
Norm Van lier

Don't know if I'll be participating, but fwiw I consider Dumars a SG. I mean, Isiah was the PG the entire front half of Joe's career, and then it was Lindsey Hunter once Isiah retired. Joe was never a PG with any sort of consistency (short stretches while Zeke or Lindsey was on the bench at most), clearly played the majority of his minutes as a SG.

Otherwise they seem like reasonable candidates. I'd add K.C. Jones and Jerry West (unless consensus wants to place the latter among the SG's). Fat Lever, too, unless classifying him a SG (not sure which way to go with him).

[trex_8063]

Ok Maybe I will start throwing out names for the PG positions, purposedly without an order (tony allen sg, moncrief sg)

Chris Paul
Patrick Beverley
Gary Payton
Eric Snow
Mo cheeks
Walt Frazier
Jason Kidd
Jrue Holiday
Mookie Blaylock
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson (PG OR SG? You tell me)
Norm Van lier

Don't know if I'll be participating, but fwiw I consider Dumars a SG. I mean, Isiah was the PG the entire front half of Joe's career, and then it was Lindsey Hunter once Isiah retired. Joe was never a PG with any sort of consistency (short stretches while Zeke or Lindsey was on the bench at most), clearly played the majority of his minutes as a SG.

Otherwise they seem like reasonable candidates. I'd add K.C. Jones and Jerry West (unless consensus wants to place the latter among the SG's). Fat Lever, too, unless classifying him a SG (not sure which way to go with him).

Derek Harper another PG who should probably be included for consideration.