#1 Best Defensive Point Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position Project

[SHAQ32]

(Was really interested in this project so I hope lebron3-14-3 doesn't mind me making this thread. This was obviously all his idea.)

So, we start from the top, the #1 Best defensive point guard of all time.

There are 20 candidates.

K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Jerry West (Lakers, 1961/74)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Walt Frazier (Knicks, Cavs, 1968/1980)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
John Stockton (Utah Jazz, 1985/2003)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Gary Payton (Seattle, Milwaukee, Lakers, Boston, Miami, 1991/2007)
Jason Kidd (Dallas, Phoenix, Nets, Knicks, 1995/2013)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Chris Paul (Clippers, Rockets, 2006-2018+)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Pick the #1 best and explain why. We'll decide if it will last for 1 or 2 days

[SHAQ32]

Going with 9x All-Defensive, Jason Kidd here for a few reasons. Like Payton, Kidd had size (6'4) and could defend multiple positions, but the difference makers are his superior metrics and longevity as an impact defender. I know it's not the end-all or anything, but even up until his last season, at age 39 Kidd was posting a +2.7 Defensive Box Plus/Minus.

Check out Prime Kidd's Team DRtg's

1998 Suns - 6th
1999 Suns - 19th
2000 Suns - 3rd
2001 Suns - 2nd
2002 Nets - 1st
2003 Nets - 1st
2004 Nets - 4th
2005 Nets - 7th
2006 Nets - 4th

[mdonnelly1989]

There def needs to be a poll for this.

But there is no doubt in my mind that it was Walt Frazier.

[eminence]

Mmkay, going to group guys.

Contenders:
Maurice Cheeks
Mookie Blaylock
Jason Kidd
Jrue Holiday

Guys I need to research more:
KC Jones
Wali Jones
Walt Frazier
Norm Van Lier
Don Buse
Dennis Johnson
Michael Ray Richardson

Guys I don't think are contenders for this spot:
Jerry West
Ron Harper
John Stockton
Nate McMillan
Gary Payton
Eric Snow
Chris Paul
Ricky Rubio
Patrick Beverley

Basing this on a 'prime' defensive list. Hope this thread is open for awhile and I get a chance to learn a lot!

[Gant]

Walt Frazier didn't just play great defense, he sometimes took over games with his defense.

[LA Bird]

Jason Kidd. The best longevity out of all the point guards, has the strength and size to guard multiple positions, and rates out well in both traditional defensive stats (#2 in steals behind Stockton, #2 in blocks behind DJ, #1 in defensive rebounds) and advanced defensive stats (#1 in DWS, #3 in DBPM behind McMillan and MRR). His career DRAPM in JE's 15 year dataset is solid (+1.3) and he had the second highest single season defensive on/off I have seen from a point guard in 1999 at -9.2.

Regarding other possible candidates
Payton: Not better than McMillan before 96 and with him slacking on defense often after 98 with increased offensive volume, this severely limits the amount of time Payton had as a truly high level defender. I find his 96 defense on MJ to be overrated since I remember doing some analysis a while back and Jordan's PPP weren't any worse against him than Hawkins/McMillan
Frazier: Longevity is only 2/3 of Kidd's. Steal stats were underwhelming for somebody with his quickness reputation. Knicks defense dropped from top 5 to below average after DeBusschere's retirement while Frazier was still in prime, which makes me question how much of the DRtg improvement in 69/70 was due to the arrival of DeBusschere as opposed to the development of Frazier.

[mdonnelly1989]

Walt Frazier didn't just play great defense, he sometimes took over games with his defense.

I bet 70's will agree with this as well.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Defensive player of the year was created in the 1982. Payton won that once. Moncrief won it twice but he was listed as an off guard by basketballreference when he won it. I looked at his teammates minutes, particularly Brian Winters an off guard, and my conclusion is that Moncrief was splitting his minutes about half half between point guard and off guard when he won defensive player of the year.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Mmkay, going to group guys.

Contenders
Jrue Holiday

Guys I need to research more:

Dennis Johnson

Guys I don't think are contenders for this spot:

Nate McMillan
Gary Payton
Patrick Beverley

Basing this on a 'prime' defensive list. Hope this thread is open for awhile and I get a chance to learn a lot!

I have not noticed Jrue Holiday being all that special defensively. I don't see him much but I do see him when he plays against the Warriors. Has Holiday really been better than Beverly and Nate McMillan?

Payton won defensive player of the year. Do you think it was hype? I do think Payton was one of the best ever at containing the opposing point guard's dribble and that is the first skill I think of when I think "defensive point guard".

Dennis Johnson is not a point guard On the championship Sonics. Gus Williams was and he was a good defensive point guard. Dennis had the quickness to play point guard but his defensive talents at that time were mostly used at off guard.

DJ was mostly not the point guard on the Suns. Kyle Macy was not a quick point guard so maybe DJ guarded point guards but Kyle Macy also was not big enough to guard off guards. DJ was off guard sized.

In Boston DJ was not the point guard until 1985 when Henderson was gone. DJ no had lost his top speed by 1986 and was merely fast. DJ played tough smart defense and he was bigger and stronger than most point guards but half of the point guards were quicker than DJ at that time.

[trex_8063]

Kinda cross-referencing or combining consideration of peak level defense and total career defensive value, I think I'll go with Jason Kidd.
One of the most elite defensive rebounding PG's of all-time, moved his feet well and didn't die on a screen, and a lengthy chap contested shots and generated turnovers. He (along with limited minute roll players like Jason Collins) was actually the anchor of multiple good to elite defenses, and he was a solid defender even into the twilight of his career.

Quick look at his DRAPM's, starting with his first positive one in '98:
'98: +0.13
'99: +0.44
'00: +0.54
'01 (NPI): +1.4
'02: +1.0
'03: +1.4
'04: +2.1
'05: +1.8
'06: +0.2
'07: -0.2
'08: +1.3
'09: +2.7
'10: +2.5
'11: +1.3
'12 (NPI): +0.7
'13: +0.9

Big minutes a lot of those years too, and I actually think this metric maybe undersells him some of those early 00's Nets years. That's a lot of cumulative defensive value, though.

The other contenders I was considering: Mookie Blaylock, Maurice Cheeks, Jerry West, and maybe John Stockton (another guy who could get there soon for me, based on longevity and career defensive value); EDIT: and Chris Paul, too.

[eminence]

Mmkay, going to group guys.

Contenders
Jrue Holiday

Guys I need to research more:

Dennis Johnson

Guys I don't think are contenders for this spot:

Nate McMillan
Gary Payton
Patrick Beverley

Basing this on a 'prime' defensive list. Hope this thread is open for awhile and I get a chance to learn a lot!

I have not noticed Jrue Holiday being all that special defensively. I don't see him much but I do see him when he plays against the Warriors. Has Holiday really been better than Beverly and Nate McMillan?

Payton won defensive player of the year. Do you think it was hype? I do think Payton was one of the best ever at containing the opposing point guard's dribble and that is the first skill I think of when I think "defensive point guard".

Dennis Johnson is not a point guard On the championship Sonics. Gus Williams was and he was a good defensive point guard. Dennis had the quickness to play point guard but his defensive talents at that time were mostly used at off guard.

DJ was mostly not the point guard on the Suns. Kyle Macy was not a quick point guard so maybe DJ guarded point guards but Kyle Macy also was not big enough to guard off guards. DJ was off guard sized.

In Boston DJ was not the point guard until 1985 when Henderson was gone. DJ no had lost his top speed by 1986 and was merely fast. DJ played tough smart defense and he was bigger and stronger than most point guards but half of the point guards were quicker than DJ at that time.

My initial list of contenders was guys I felt comfortable with as the best of their eras. Nate/Payton were both great, but I feel pretty good with Mookie/Kidd over them, similar to DJ/Cheeks. Jrue I think is the best defensive PG today, but I don't think I'll wind up picking him over earlier eras PGs. Holiday basically does everything well imo, some strengths I'd point out, very good size/strength/length lets him switch, low base, fluid movements, flips his hips as well or better than anybody I can think of (his size at least).

[Dr Positivity]

I don't really know but I'll say Kidd, Frazier, KC Jones, Blaylock as top contenders. I'm convinced by some of the testimonials of people who've gone back and looked closely and said they thought Kidd was better than Payton on D because of team defense. He was even great on D in 2011.

Actually now that I think of it I think #1 has to be a bigger point guard who can defend 2s, so players like Blaylock or Cheeks is less likely. Just more reason to pick Kidd. My vote is for Jason Kidd

[Samurai]

Based solely on eye test, Jerry West impacted the game with his help defense more than any of the others listed here. A good part of this was his off-the-charts bball IQ. He was like having a second coach on the floor; his knowledge of the game took his defense beyond just a compilation of his physical skills. It was as if he seemed to know what the offense was going to do, and thus his anticipation just seemed to put him in the right position to anticipate a pass or drive. While I acknowledge that there may have been a few that were even better solely as a shutdown man-defender, his help defense at the guard position was GOAT-level. His defense is tremendously underrated by a lot of fans today, most of whom never actually saw him play live. As a result, Jerry West gets my vote. In 1970, Bill Russell stated that as great as West was on offense, he was actually an even better player on defense. He added that he didn't just view West as the best defensive guard in the game, he was the best defensive player. Of course, Russell had just retired so he wasn't necessarily implying that West was better on D than he was - just that he felt West was the best defensive player in the league now that he was no longer playing.

[pandrade83]

Kidd has a powerful quantitative case that others have laid out - I don't need to re-hash and I think he has an excellent case for #1.

The other player I think worth considering is Jerry West.

-Steals aren't everything, but in '74, he averaged 2.6 spg with severe leg injuries & in the final year of his career. It is highly likely that he achieved much more during his prime. West had such a high BBIQ and played with such intensity, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't a reckless defender - but rather a superb help defender.
-West was highly respected for his competitiveness - Samurai notes that in 1970, Bill Russell calls West the best defender in the game. In the '72 ASG, West is called the best defensive guard by Russell - in the same game they also note that he is averaging just under 10 steals per game for the Lakers.
-We all know West was the MVP of the '69 Finals, & I find it hard to believe they would do that unless he had a tremendous defensive impact as well as offensive.

Watch on YouTube

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The one tough part about his resume is the lack of impact metrics coupled with the fact that from '64-'68, LA was below average on team D - though that is skewed by Russell. Most years they rank in the middle without a strong interior defensive presence.

I'll go Jerry West with Jason Kidd as a strong runner-up.

[koogiking]

Walt Frazier, Jason Kidd runner up

[feyki]

Kidd or McMillan. Kidd was the aggresive on ball defender and plus a help defender/smart team defender; and also a great defensive rebounder at his position.

McMillan was like Wade/Jordan/Kobe, he could block some shots and indimidate players who is going to be shot or attack the basket. And also he was like Payton/Kidd/Blaylock to make aggresive defences on the ball.

I say McMillan, but Kidd also up there. Also, Payton and Blaylock deserve mentions.

[Gibson22]

Nate Mcmillan. Maybe gary had superior defensive potential but for what they did in their career, nate just defender better than him, and in the footage that I saw, walt frazier didn't impress me as I expected, you can see why he's considered a GOAT defender, but he often was lazy and made mistakes.
He had it all, the size, the steals, the intimidation, the footwork, the aggressive on ball defense gary payton style, the motor, the impact on his team's defense

[PigsOnTheWing]

I'm still not comfortable with my vote so I hope you'll keep this thread open for another day. I did a bit of research and it comes down to Kidd, West and McMillan (best peak but worst longevity of the 3) with Payton and Frazier closely behind. If I had to choose now, I'd say Jerry West but I'll cast my official vote with more sound reasoning tomorrow if possible.

[Gibson22]

I'm still not comfortable with my vote so I hope you'll keep this thread open for another day. I did a bit of research and it comes down to Kidd, West and McMillan (best peak but worst longevity of the 3) with Payton and Frazier closely behind. If I had to choose now, I'd say Jerry West but I'll cast my official vote with more sound reasoning tomorrow if possible.

Yeah it absolutely needs to stay open for 2 days

[trex_8063]

As with the top 100 project, it might help whoever is doing the count if you bold your picks, guys.