#2 Best Defensive Point Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

So, we start from the top, the #2 Best defensive point guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd

There are 19 candidates.

K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Jerry West (Lakers, 1961/74)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Walt Frazier (Knicks, Cavs, 1968/1980)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
John Stockton (Utah Jazz, 1985/2003)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Gary Payton (Seattle, Milwaukee, Lakers, Boston, Miami, 1991/2007)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Chris Paul (Clippers, Rockets, 2006-2018+)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Pick the second and explain why.
Somebody sticky this (maybe)

[uberhikari]

My vote is for CP3.

He's like the Tim Duncan of point guards: there's absolutely nothing spectacular about him except his ability to consistently make the right decision on defense. I think he's the most fundamentally sound defensive point guard out of the bunch with the highest IQ, which is evidenced by what he's managed to do without any obvious physical gifts except quickness.

CP3 is 6 ft and 180 lbs with a 6'4 wingspan, yet he never dies on picks, always has the perfect positioning, and somehow managed a 7-year span where he averaged 2.5 spg. in an era without handchecking and with no gambling.

He also has longevity since he's been a top 5 defensive PG since at least '08, which is an 11 year span. Nobody in this group has that kind of longevity except for Kidd and Blaylock.

He's averaged 1.8 DRPM since 2014, which is pretty high despite not including the first 6 years of his prime/peak from '08-'13.

Furthermore, we've just seen evidence of his defensive impact in the series vs. GSW. In the first 5 games of the WCF he put on a defensive clinic against Curry in addition to having a -8.1 points per 100 possession defensive impact throughout the playoffs. At the age of 33.

[kendogg]

Gary Payton. He guarded Jordan as good as anyone in history. He's the only PG to win DPOY. 9x All Defense. How did Kidd even get voted above him. The people on this board sometimes...LOL. Kidd might be the better player overall but better defender? Nope. Maybe Kidd is better on switches since he's bigger...that's about it.

[Gibson22]

My vote goes to Nate McMillan

Everytime I vote I feel uncomfortable because I know almost nothing the older candidates, I only have an opinion starting with the latter part of DJ's career, a little bit of mo cheeks, that period. plus walt frazier. But, excluding those guys, the active players except for CP3 are far below the #2 place contention, especially considering they all played far less than 10 seasons. The guys I would consider are cp3, nate, gary, blaylock, cheeks, and I would imaigine don buse, walt, and base on the opinions of past players jerry west.
If nate had more longevity I would be quite sure of my vote, but still, in this list, the only guy who has a big advantage on him in this regard is john stockton.
There's evidence that suggests that wings impact the defense more than guards, and bigs more than wings. In fact, I always tought that a small player can do only so much good on the defensive end. They can disturb the opposing point guard's dribble, they can intercept the passing lanes, and some can fight to contest the shot, but they can only do so much. It is literally proven that only a restrected group of guards can have the impact that (a lot of) good defensive wings or bigs can have. Nate is one of the best on ball defenders among PGs but certainly worse than payton or blaylock, a good help defender, but probably not at the level of Jason kidd or stockton, he was one of the best at steals, he never took a play off, but he also had the size, the ability to contest shots. Maybe it's also the fact that he is one of the worst offensive players in this list so he had more energy to defend, but at the moment, I'm not sure but I'd vote for him

[Gibson22]

Gary Payton. He guarded Jordan as good as anyone in history. He's the only PG to win DPOY. 9x All Defense. How did Kidd even get voted above him. The people on this board sometimes...LOL. Kidd might be the better player overall but better defender? Nope. Maybe Kidd is better on switches since he's bigger...that's about it.

I don't know, gary payton, dumars, rodman, john starks, vernon maxwell, all guarded him well. Then again I don't see nobody nowadays arguing about who's the best defender talking about how good one player guards lebron, who's probably a better offensive player than mike. But yeah I didn't expect kidd to be voted #1. Gary lacks longevity as a great defender and isn't among the best in team defense, while kidd to me is easily the best in that part of the game. I don't know, I would say that payton at his peak is certainly the best on ball defender among PGs, but all things considered, I don't know if he deserves the first spot

[pandrade83]

I vote Jerry West.


-Steals aren't everything, but in '74, he averaged 2.6 spg with severe leg injuries & in the final year of his career. It is highly likely that he achieved much more during his prime. West had such a high BBIQ and played with such intensity, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't a reckless defender - but rather a superb help defender.
-West was highly respected for his competitiveness - Samurai notes that in 1970, Bill Russell calls West the best defender in the game. In the '72 ASG, West is called the best defensive guard by Russell - in the same game they also note that he is averaging just under 10 steals per game for the Lakers.
-We all know West was the MVP of the '69 Finals, & I find it hard to believe they would do that unless he had a tremendous defensive impact as well as offensive.
-West earned All-D every full season that they had the award from '69 forward - implying (but not guaranteeing) that he would've finished with a lot of them.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The one tough part about his resume is the lack of impact metrics coupled with the fact that from '64-'68, LA was below average on team D - though that is skewed by Russell creating outliers. Most years they rank in the middle of the pack without a strong interior defensive presence.

I need to do some digger diving on Blaylock, Frazier, Payton or Cheeks for the next spot as I think all are worthy of consideration.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm going to go with Walt Frazier. He had a great combination of size and athleticism - he is blowing past everyone when you see him play, as an athlete he was certainly ahead of his time.

I do think his defense would translate quite well among eras even if his athleticism advantage declines because he had excellent b-ball IQ. He was great at getting steals without getting position which is pretty ideal. Basically, I think he's a slightly better version of Payton.

My vote goes to Walt Clyde Frazier

[trex_8063]

I'm tentatively going with Jerry West as my pick here.

Let's first be clear about West's size/length. Do not be fooled by the 6'2" height listing that has largely stuck with him. He's on record indicating it was a without shoes height recorded as a freshman at West Virginia U, and it just stuck. He's on record later [in retirement] saying his without shoes height is closer to 6'4" (I'll see if I can find the audio interview where that is stated later). I'll provide some photographic evidence.....

Here he is next to [the 6'3"] Stephen Curry:

Who looks taller?

Here he is next to [the listed 6'6"] Kobe Bryant:


Does there look like 4" difference between them?

Here he is next to [6'4"] Dwyane Wade:

They look pretty dead even.

Bear in mind these are all old [possibly shrunken?] pics of Jerry West.I feel it's safe to say that West would likely be listed as at least 6'4" today (even 6'5" is not inconceivable).
And then let's add to that consideration of his reach: he's got very long arms for his height (sort of high-set shoulders like Kevin McHale, too, for that matter). One of the commentators on the video I'm linking below notes that West wears a size 38 sleeve on his suit jackets to accommodate the long arms.
He put this length to great use in help defense, getting into passing lanes, or reaching.

Here he is using that length to eliminate a shot at the rim in college:



His anticipation is fantastic, and his attention and defensive intelligence in seeing plays develop is also excellent. Some highlights can be seen in the following video (which was linked in the last thread, too); I particularly like the help-defense block at the rim on the play starting at ~0:40....

Watch on YouTube

He got All-Defensive 2nd Team the first year it was offered, and All-Defensive 1st Team the next three years in a row. Likely would have received honors in '74, too, if not for injury; in the 31 games played he was averaging a ridiculous 3.0 steals/36 minutes (3.6 per 100 possessions), even on his last legs at age 35.
fwiw, Bill Russell is on record in the early 70's saying Jerry West was the best defensive player in the league (not the best defensive guard, but the best defensive PLAYER), and iirc also suggesting that as good as West is offensively, that he's even better defensively.


I could potentially be swayed toward Chris Paul, Mookie Blaylock, or possibly a longevity-based case for John Stockton. Mo Cheeks and Walt Frazier are also around there. Somewhere probably about that point or just after is where Gary Payton comes into the picture for me.

[SHAQ32]

Doubt he gets the nod overall, but i'm going with Mookie Blaylock here. He wasn't a household name, so in an era with names like Jordan, Dumars, Stockton, Payton, etc., it's telling that he was able to make 6 consecutive All-Defensive teams. Would say from about 94-99 he was the best defensive guard in the entire NBA. The metrics back it up as well.

Oh, and he's also blocked Michael Jordan clean on multiple occasions.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

[Gibson22]

When I think or look at a guy like blaylock, it was a show to watch him defend, but that type of defense can't have, in my opinion, a big positive impact on your team. In an era of better shooting, his way of defending would concede a lot of open or not well contested shots, not that I think that a player should be evaluated upon how good they would do in another era, but even in his era, he was a great defender in the sense that the opposing team would probably think, oh, this damned guy, because he was always trying to disturb you and getting in passing lanes and contesting your dribble, often leaving his man to follow the ball, but players at that size can only try to make things difficult for their opponents, they can't actually be GREAT defenders. Mookie is the perfect defender of that type and the best of the category (in my opinion) but I don't even know if a player like him can actually have a much more positive impact on defense than a bigger guy like doc rivers (who left the hawks just before mookie arrived), who was a very very good defender but not an historically great one. So that's what I think, mookie is probably the best in the category of the small on ball demons, dribble disturbers, passing lanes disrupters, but that type of defender can only do so much.

Edit: I talked about blaylock as an example of that type of defensive player, I don't want to diminish him, in fact, I consider him the best at what he did. I would put patrick beverley, earlier rondo, and some other guys in that category. BTW I think that's how a lot of the best defenders in college defend, but in the NBA, that type of defense isn't the best. Then again, I'm not critizing that type of defense, I think that's the best you can do at that size.

That's why I voted for Nate mcmillan. I would have voted for Frazier, but the footage that I saw of him made me positive that his defense is overrated. I honestly think he took a lot of plays off and conceded a lot of easy buckets. That's honestly one of the reasons why I tought about this project, the fact that a guy like walt frazier, who I always tought to be a God on defense, didn't seem that great to me.

Then again, I should at least watch more of some of those older guys. Don buse is probably a guy who should deserve consideration for the #2 spot, but I don't know about him.

[Gibson22]

I'm tentatively going with Jerry West as my pick here.

Let's first be clear about West's size/length. Do not be fooled by the 6'2" height listing that has largely stuck with him. He's on record indicating it was a without shoes height recorded as a freshman at West Virginia U, and it just stuck. He's on record later [in retirement] saying his without shoes height is closer to 6'4" (I'll see if I can find the audio interview where that is stated later). I'll provide some photographic evidence.....

Here he is next to [the 6'3"] Stephen Curry:

Who looks taller?

Here he is next to [the listed 6'6"] Kobe Bryant:


Does there look like 4" difference between them?

Here he is next to [6'4"] Dwyane Wade:

They look pretty dead even.

Bear in mind these are all old [possibly shrunken?] pics of Jerry West.I feel it's safe to say that West would likely be listed as at least 6'4" today (even 6'5" is not inconceivable).
And then let's add to that consideration of his reach: he's got very long arms for his height (sort of high-set shoulders like Kevin McHale, too, for that matter). One of the commentators on the video I'm linking below notes that West wears a size 38 sleeve on his suit jackets to accommodate the long arms.
He put this length to great use in help defense, getting into passing lanes, or reaching.

Here he is using that length to eliminate a shot at the rim in college:



His anticipation is fantastic, and his attention and defensive intelligence in seeing plays develop is also excellent. Some highlights can be seen in the following video (which was linked in the last thread, too); I particularly like the help-defense block at the rim on the play starting at ~0:40....

Watch on YouTube

He got All-Defensive 2nd Team the first year it was offered, and All-Defensive 1st Team the next three years in a row. Likely would have received honors in '74, too, if not for injury; in the 31 games played he was averaging a ridiculous 3.0 steals/36 minutes (3.6 per 100 possessions), even on his last legs at age 35.
fwiw, Bill Russell is on record in the early 70's saying Jerry West was the best defensive player in the league (not the best defensive guard, but the best defensive PLAYER), and iirc also suggesting that as good as West is offensively, that he's even better defensively.


I could potentially be swayed toward Chris Paul, Mookie Blaylock, or possibly a longevity-based case for John Stockton. Mo Cheeks and Walt Frazier are also around there. Somewhere probably about that point or just after is where Gary Payton comes into the picture for me.

Yeah West was about 6'4", that's anarguable, and today he would be listed at 6'5" probably, and he had a 6'9" wingspan. He reached 16 inches above the rim. He was really big for a point guard. Btw those barefoot height are Curry 6'2", wade slightly shorter than 6'4, kobe 6'5".

PS: should we sticky the thread?

[trex_8063]

PS: should we sticky the thread?

idk, I couldn't tell if that made it more visible or less [because people aren't looking for regular threads that high up on the page] for the first thread. If you for sure want 'em stickied, I'll do it; just let me know.

[PigsOnTheWing]

My vote goes to Jerry West. I explained my reasoning a bit in the #1 thread:

My other main candidate was Jerry West. I love him, after Steve Nash he is probably my favorite player of all time but this has nothing to do with why I think he deserves to be this high. We have almost no defensive numbers for him so from an impact perspective it's hard to make an evaluation. But from every video I've seen, he seems to be absolutely phenomenal. Great timing, quick hands, good positioning, I guess he was able to lock down others guards very often. But the thing that jumped out to me the most was his help defense and IQ. He was praised by his contemporaries for his ability to quarterback the defense (though the Lakers had never had good DRTG until Wilt came along). The impact studies like WOWYR paint him as super valuable and I'm sure a +7 impact wasn't possible only with great offense in that era with stricter dribbling rules. That's why he'll most likely earn my #2 vote. He falls short in overall value from Kidd because of worse longevity and a slightly lower peak.

A player who isn't getting mentioned enough is definitely John Stockton. I can see him as my #3 vote. He has excellent plus minus numbers, comparable to the ones of Mookie and his prime is 2x longer.
Btw, yesterday, Goldstein (a stat genius, if you don't follow him on twitter and are interested in advanced metrics, you'd better do) published a database of estimated on/off data for 1973-2000 seasons, a timespan of which we don't have official numbers. The defensive values are obviously less accurate than the offensive ones and they yields a R^2 of .17 (which isn't great) so you can also ignore this numbers and I'd understand you. Still, they are reasonable enough to be given a look and be considered for this project imo. Here is the link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rshz7YDmMjMQcLCCEhz5Disuy3WYKFoVKmL4buh1k0w/edit#gid=0

[Gibson22]

PS: should we sticky the thread?

idk, I couldn't tell if that made it more visible or less [because people aren't looking for regular threads that high up on the page] for the first thread. If you for sure want 'em stickied, I'll do it; just let me know.

I don't know, maybe it is like you said but as time passes and threads go on people wil notice this thing being there? I'm not sure. I probably wouldn't notice. Maybe don't sticky it this time

[countryboy667]

Walt Frazier and I don't think anyone else is really close.

[penbeast0]

I'll go with Frazier too. His defense is deceptive because he would vary his tightness on the offensive player, always playing mind games to try to sucker them into predictibility so he could change it up on them. Fastest hands I've ever seen combined with excellent size. Footwork wasn't as great as some; he counted on his athleticism too much at times, but he could break an opposing PG's confidence like no one else I've ever seen with sudden shifts of defensive tempo leading to flurries of turnovers that changed momentum. Shortness of career isn't something I worry about too much unless it's less than 5 years (like Moncrief or Lever).

[euroleague]

Gary Payton

He was so strong and physical, at the same time coming at players aggressively in trash talking, he could get players out of their rhythm like not many others. Pretty surprised at Kidd being first, I would’ve had Frazier above him as well.

[PistolPeteJR]

I like the West breakdown. Very thorough and telling.
Not sure how Kidd got in at #1 tbh.
Next is West and Payton for me.

[Gibson22]

I like the West breakdown. Very thorough and telling.
Not sure how Kidd got in at #1 tbh.
Next is West and Payton for me.

So your vote goes to? West?

[Heej]

I've always seen West as Bizarro Wade so I want to go with him, but I really think Chris Paul's impact on help defense and IQ to consistently preconceive and blow up plays (as evidenced by consistent SPG for a solid stretch). He's not only the best help defending PG I've seen but he's stout at individual defense, and for a long time. He's so good in fact that you really could say he's the best individual defending PG due to his quickness, ability to play angles, and the fact that he's built like a brick ****house.

I think the era that he's in allows him more defensive impact because the game is slowly homogenizing in many ways, so the average PG impact nowadays is closer to the league average than in previous eras. And I think CP clearly has the highest IQ out of everyone on this list (but West Is comparable) so he's the most adapted to playing in today's style.

However if he's allowed to be even more physical than he already is, I could really see him being monstrous in previous eras due to his strength. He just wouldn't be as effective as GP or MacMillan. But ultimately help defense will always matter more, and the metrics really show it for CP. I sometimes think he's really the perfect PG in so many respects (a smidge more passive than necessary tho in my opinion, sidebar: John Wall actually strikes the best balance in this category that I've ever seen, excellent feel). He's basically maximized all the talent he's been afforded.

I think this list is basically going to go in order of who we think has the highest IQ. As evidenced by no further than the fact that Kidd is first. Makes sense considering the nature of the position