RealGM

We move on to the fourth place, the #4 best defensive Point Guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton

These are some candidates, but if you want to vote for somebody that's not in the list and explain why, that's fine, you can do it

K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Jerry West (Lakers, 1961/74)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Slick Watts (Seattle Supersonics, New Orleans Jazz, Rockets, 1974/79)
Quinn Buckner (Milwaukee Bucks, Boston, Indiana, 1977/1986)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
John Stockton (Utah Jazz, 1985/2003)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Chris Paul (Clippers, Rockets, 2006-2018+)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Make your pick and explain why.


P.S. can somebody fix the links?

I looked back at the All-D teams and a few things struck me, for what it's worth.

1960s didn't have them but I can't see Wali Jones over KC Jones or West
1970s, West was voted ahead of Norm Van Lier in his last 3 full years
1980s, Cheeks didn't make a lot early, Dennis Johnson was pretty much a given; then Mo started getting mentioned ahead of DJ for the later part of the 80s although DJ was usually the 2nd team guy.
1990s, Mookie got the 1st team awards ahead of Stockton until the ascension of Payton
2000s were pretty much shooting guards until Paul came into the league, no one else got regular consistent mentions

So, for now, I will limit my analysis to those guys:

KC Jones
Jerry West
Dennis Johnson
Maurice Cheeks
Mookie Blaylock
Chris Paul

Of them, West and DJ have the size and versatility to switch onto big guards, ATL is the team that I see overachieving the most defensively (although they didn't seem to suffer in the non-Mookie years when they had Fast Eddie Johnson who was another outstanding defensive guard if not an upstanding citizen).

Tentative vote for Dennis Johnson but willing to be convinced to switch. Never liked him, wasn't nearly as impressed with his offensive game particularly at the point, but he was super athletic and played both good on ball and switching.

Note: I would add Slater Martin to our list, best defensive point of the 50s if anyone goes back and does real analysis of the early players.

Lostbricks quote is missing a quotation/speech mark as is the second migya [edit: the second migya is also missing a close quote], whilst Samurai is missing an open square bracket - all for the quote openings.

For the others it's harder. The first of the speech marks seem to be facing the wrong way though, and I notice when pasting things into word some websites use different types of speech marks (or at least the ones that appear are different than what I'd get typing into word). I'd probably retype the quotation marks for the people it didn't work for. I don't know how quoting in edited posts works wrt the posters getting alerts, whilst I'd hope it works, it might be safer to redo the ones that didn't work in a new post. Oh, and probably worth previewing the post to check that it works before submitting.

Hope some of this helps.

Owly wrote:Lostbricks quote is missing a quotation/speech mark as is the second migya [edit: the second migya is also missing a close quote], whilst Samurai is missing an open square bracket - all for the quote openings.

For the others it's harder. The first of the speech marks seem to be facing the wrong way though, and I notice when pasting things into word some websites use different types of speech marks (or at least the ones that appear are different than what I'd get typing into word). I'd probably retype the quotation marks for the people it didn't work for. I don't know how quoting in edited posts works wrt the posters getting alerts, whilst I'd hope it works, it might be safer to redo the ones that didn't work in a new post. Oh, and probably worth previewing the post to check that it works before submitting.

Hope some of this helps.

Yeah I already figured out, it's the speech marks. Fixed.

Does anybody know if the ones I edited and fixed will still get the alerts?

Anyway. Guys that I would consider: Mo Cheeks, Nate Mcmillan, Jerry West, Don Buse. I would put nate above mo cheeks, and I'd guess he was better than jerry. I don't know don buse, I'd guess he deserves consideration just from what I heard about him.
I will probably vote for nate again but I'll wait

Gotta think on this. It's between Cheeks, McMillan, and West for me as well. Also, forgot about Dennis Johnson (nod to Penbeast here), picked up by the Celts as an answer to Andrew Toney bullying their smaller back court. What's impressive to me about DJ is that he easily changed his play style to fit into the system Boston has at that time.

I’ll add a vote for John Stockton. West and Buse were super close, but what put Stockton over the top for me was certain advanced stats (someone mentioned his incredible PM numbers in the other thread) combined with incredible longevity. Stockton was the best player ever bar none at sniping the post, plus he was a smart help defender and great at pushing his guy just barely away from the spots he wanted to get to.

I’d also urge people to consider Norm Van Lier, if only for the unprecedented levels of scrappiness to the tune of eight all defensive teams (if I remember right). He deserves more buzz in this discussion than he’s been getting, IMO.

penbeast0 wrote:
Tentative vote for Dennis Johnson but willing to be convinced to switch. Never liked him, wasn't nearly as impressed with his offensive game particularly at the point, but he was super athletic and played both good on ball and switching.
.

I know DJ's Boston years. I don't really know his years before that but who he played with tells me something.

I don't think Johnson was a point guard during most of his most athletic years.
In Seattle he is part of a 3 man back court with Gus Williams and Freddy Brown. Gus Williams was a good defender of point guards but was too small to defend off guards. Freddy Brown was also smaller than DJ.

I looked at DJ's Suns years. He was often playing with point guard Kyle Macy. There were probably 2 years where DJ probably primarily defended point guards on the Suns. The third year when Macy played more minutes DJ may have been more of an off guard. The Suns might have put DJ on the better offensive player even if Kyle Macy was going to end up defended an off guard that was too big for him.


DJ did not defend point guards with Boston in 1984. Gerald Hederson did. In the finals Gerald Henderson failed at guarding Magic and DJ got the job. DJ trying to stick to Magic like glue was memorable. At the of game 7 the Celtics put forward Cedric Maxwell on Magic with some sucess.

By the Celtics great 1986 team DJ was a little past his athletic prime. In 1986 DJ really was the point guard. Whoever said Ainge guarded point guards in a previous thread was wrong. Ainge would only guard a point guard if DJ was needed to guard the off guard. Sichting was DJ's back up. on offense, (not that it matters) I thought that 1986 onwards DJ was great at the floor general side of being a point guard. He ran the offense like a good coach. If he had time to think he would hurt a defense with his passe. DJ did not have good court vision so without time to think he did not see everything. On defense DJ could use he mind to jump a passing lane. DJ knew opponents tendencies. There were certain kinds of defensive plays that can't be anticipated and require great court vision and DJ could not make those type of plays.

DJ's stamina and work ethic were top notch. DJ like to crowd offensive players. Some quick little point guards were too quick for 1986 onwards DJ and DJ had to back off some. Isiah was a little too quick for DJ. DJ was OK against Isiah but DJ had to be cautious against Isiah.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:P.S. can somebody fix the links?

Done. Use the edit feature on the post so you can see how I've scripted the links so that the players name is highlighted as the [functional] link (just for future reference ) .

EDIT: I also edited your post with everyone quoted to put it in a spoiler (saves a lot of page space, which is convenient for those reading----especially if they're on a mobile device).

Copied from last thread (I'm going with the same pick for now):

I'll be honest, I'm all over the map in who I want to support right now. Extremely noisy stat, but the underwhelming defensive WOWY data is now giving me pause on Jerry West. At this point I cannot guarantee I'll be consistent from thread to thread, as there are about 5 guys I feel have similarly strong cases.

I guess I'll tentatively go with Chris Paul as my pick. Not much length, but built like a tank so he's not easily abused in the post and is one of the best pnr defenders in the league (gets thru those screens and is great fanning his quick hands across the passing angles if he's a quarter-step behind), arguably the most intelligent defender on the table, fierce competitor pretty much every possession, and awfully quick hands too.

His DRAPM's are typically around the +2-2.5 range year after year in recent seasons (typically in big minutes: he's >31,000 career rs minutes), and his defensive on/off's (which are always good) semi-consistently get even better in the playoffs. The Clipper defense fell from -0.6 rDRTG in '17 to +1.6 this year without Paul, and he's got nine All-Defensive honors to his credit (seven 1st Team).

Hopefully that's sufficient support of a vote for CP3.

fwiw, I think West, Blaylock, Stockton, or Cheeks are also fantastic candidates for this spot.

Chris Paul

No time for a full write up. Will try, if I get a chance.

Quick summary:
Only lacking height and length
Elite at all aspects of defense

I'll be going Jerry West here again, with Mookie, Stockton, Buse & DJ close behind.

-Steals aren't everything, but in '74, he averaged 2.6 spg with severe leg injuries & in the final year of his career. It is highly likely that he achieved much more during his prime. West had such a high BBIQ and played with such intensity, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't a reckless defender - but rather a superb help defender.
-West was highly respected for his competitiveness - Samurai notes that in 1970, Bill Russell calls West the best defender in the game. In the '72 ASG, West is called the best defensive guard by Russell - in the same game they also note that he is averaging just under 10 steals per game for the Lakers.
-We all know West was the MVP of the '69 Finals, & I find it hard to believe they would do that unless he had a tremendous defensive impact as well as offensive.





The one tough part about his resume is the lack of impact metrics coupled with the fact that from '64-'68, LA was below average on team D.
However, those metrics are somewhat misleading as Russell produced outlier level teams. They were usually mid-pack and that's without a strong rim protecting center.

In West's WS Peak year ('66) here are your starting centers

Phi - Chamberlain 21.4 WS/28.3 PER
Bos - Russell 11.7 WS/17.3 PER
Cin - Embry 1.5 WS/9.2 PER
NY - Bellamy 8.9 WS/19.4 PER
Bal - Red Kerr 3.1 WS/16.3 PER
Stl - Beaty 10.3 WS/18.5 PER
SF - Thurmond 4.3/ WS/15.0 PER
Det - Strawder 3.6 WS/11.6 PER

Lakers - Leroy Ellis 2.8 WS/13.0 PER

There's a credible argument that the Lakers had the 2nd worst center in the league - going up against 1/3 of the league having truly elite defenders - & still finished 5th defensively in a 9 team league.

penbeast0 wrote:I looked back at the All-D teams and a few things struck me, for what it's worth.

1960s didn't have them but I can't see Wali Jones over KC Jones or West
1970s, West was voted ahead of Norm Van Lier in his last 3 full years
1980s, Cheeks didn't make a lot early, Dennis Johnson was pretty much a given; then Mo started getting mentioned ahead of DJ for the later part of the 80s although DJ was usually the 2nd team guy.
1990s, Mookie got the 1st team awards ahead of Stockton until the ascension of Payton
2000s were pretty much shooting guards until Paul came into the league, no one else got regular consistent mentions

So, for now, I will limit my analysis to those guys:

KC Jones
Jerry West
Dennis Johnson
Maurice Cheeks
Mookie Blaylock
Chris Paul

Of them, West and DJ have the size and versatility to switch onto big guards, ATL is the team that I see overachieving the most defensively (although they didn't seem to suffer in the non-Mookie years when they had Fast Eddie Johnson who was another outstanding defensive guard if not an upstanding citizen).

Tentative vote for Dennis Johnson but willing to be convinced to switch. Never liked him, wasn't nearly as impressed with his offensive game particularly at the point, but he was super athletic and played both good on ball and switching.

Note: I would add Slater Martin to our list, best defensive point of the 50s if anyone goes back and does real analysis of the early players.

I don't get this. Mookie played for Atlanta from '93-'99. Eddie's last full year in Atlanta was '86. That's quite a stretch.

I have Dennis Johnson as a SG. His Seattle career is at SG and I always assumed Ainge was the PG and DJ the SG in Boston

edit - My vote is for Dennis Johnson. My impression is that he is one of the few PGs with the ability to dominate a game on defense. An article from 78 finals showing the respect for his D https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1978/06/01/dennis-johnson-is-blocking-bullet-title/b8aeb8fd-fcf9-43d8-9dc3-7c4074b03d37/?utm_term=.051122574085 I once went back and tried to guess who would win DPOY if it existed in the 60s/70s, and based on some of the early winners like Moncrief and Robertson, I believe there is a great chance DJ would have one or two with the Sonics and Suns

Dr Positivity wrote:I have Dennis Johnson as a SG. His Seattle career is at SG and I always assumed Ainge was the PG and DJ the SG in Boston

Given he is listed at SG, you should be considering him vs. the other players on the list (same goes for West btw).

pandrade83 wrote:

Dr Positivity wrote:I have Dennis Johnson as a SG. His Seattle career is at SG and I always assumed Ainge was the PG and DJ the SG in Boston

Given he is listed at SG, you should be considering him vs. the other players on the list (same goes for West btw).

I assume you mean "listed as PG". If so, I agree (that one shouldn't withhold consideration of DJ [or West] on basis of considering them SG's). I could be wrong, but my understanding of how we're conducting this project is that players categorized and listed here [among PG's] will not be available candidates when it comes time for the SG's.

M-m-m-m-Mookie! (RIP Stuart Scott)

Mookie Blaylock

Edit: Also just wanted to say that although there are other bigger guards with more length, that maybe more physically intimidating, never underestimate the 'smaller' guys that rack up the steals. Star guards aren't keen to turning the ball over, which can really disrupt the rhythm and overall team offense. Mookie was great at that.

trex_8063 wrote:

pandrade83 wrote:

Dr Positivity wrote:I have Dennis Johnson as a SG. His Seattle career is at SG and I always assumed Ainge was the PG and DJ the SG in Boston

Given he is listed at SG, you should be considering him vs. the other players on the list (same goes for West btw).

I assume you mean "listed as PG". If so, I agree (that one shouldn't withhold consideration of DJ [or West] on basis of considering them SG's). I could be wrong, but my understanding of how we're conducting this project is that players categorized and listed here [among PG's] will not be available candidates when it comes time for the SG's.

Yep - typed too fast. I'll be voting for DJ & West as part of this project under the assumption they won't be available going forward.