RealGM

We move on to the fifth place, the #5 best defensive Point Guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson

These are some candidates, but if you want to vote for somebody that's not in the list and explain why, that's fine, you can do it

Slater Martin (Minneapolis Lakers, Knicks, St.Louis Hawks, 1950/1960
K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Jerry West (Lakers, 1961/74)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Slick Watts (Seattle Supersonics, New Orleans Jazz, Rockets, 1974/79)
Quinn Buckner (Milwaukee Bucks, Boston, Indiana, 1977/1986)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
John Stockton (Utah Jazz, 1985/2003)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Lindsey Hunter (Pistons, Bucks, Lakers, Raptors, Bulls, 1994/2010)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Chris Paul (Clippers, Rockets, 2006-2018+)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Make your pick and explain why.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

I would probably go.

Nate
MRR
Don Buse
Derek Harper
Mo cheeks
Cp3
Jerry West
Jrue
Mookie
Snow
Stockton

or something like that

So my vote goes to Nate McMillan

Why Dennis Johnson is so high? His best defensive years were in Seattle and Phoenix, when he played mostly as shooting guard, not PG. In Boston he wasn't as good on D anymore. Sure, he got several All D Teams, but it was more because of his reputation than in game impact (similar to late Kobe).

Trundle wrote:Why Dennis Johnson is so high? His best defensive years were in Seattle and Phoenix, when he played mostly as shooting guard, not PG. In Boston he wasn't as good on D anymore. Sure, he got several All D Teams, but it was more because of his reputation than in game impact (similar to late Kobe).

This.

I'm surprised West isn't up there, to be honest.

PistolPeteJR wrote:

Trundle wrote:Why Dennis Johnson is so high? His best defensive years were in Seattle and Phoenix, when he played mostly as shooting guard, not PG. In Boston he wasn't as good on D anymore. Sure, he got several All D Teams, but it was more because of his reputation than in game impact (similar to late Kobe).

This.

I'm surprised West isn't up there, to be honest.

I'm surprised too since he lost the voting for #3 place by one vote

Trundle wrote:Why Dennis Johnson is so high? His best defensive years were in Seattle and Phoenix, when he played mostly as shooting guard, not PG. In Boston he wasn't as good on D anymore. Sure, he got several All D Teams, but it was more because of his reputation than in game impact (similar to late Kobe).

I think with guys that played 2 positions we just pick the posisition they are more associated with. Otherwise a 2 position guy would not get on any list. Johnson was probably a better defender as a off guard in Seattle than he was as a point guard in Boston. Even in Boston he was probably a better defender as an off guard in 1984 than he was as a point guard in 1986.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

Trundle wrote:Why Dennis Johnson is so high? His best defensive years were in Seattle and Phoenix, when he played mostly as shooting guard, not PG. In Boston he wasn't as good on D anymore. Sure, he got several All D Teams, but it was more because of his reputation than in game impact (similar to late Kobe).

I think with guys that played 2 positions we just pick the posisition they are more associated with. Otherwise a 2 position guy would not get on any list. Johnson was probably a better defender as a off guard in Seattle than he was as a point guard in Boston. Even in Boston he was probably a better defender as an off guard in 1984 than he was as a point guard in 1986.

Exactly like you said

Trundle wrote:Why Dennis Johnson is so high? His best defensive years were in Seattle and Phoenix, when he played mostly as shooting guard, not PG. In Boston he wasn't as good on D anymore. Sure, he got several All D Teams, but it was more because of his reputation than in game impact (similar to late Kobe).

Anyway you could partecipate and vote if you want

LA Bird wrote:It's worth mentioning that defensive guards who are also great on offense often get more playing time. It's quite difficult to play a defense-only guard for an extended stretch. Good offensive guards who play some defense may thus be able to accrue more defensive value over their career than defensive specialists even if their defense isn't as good on a per possession basis.

Transplanting this from the last thread, as this was precisely my thought as well.

Copied from last thread (I'm going with the same pick for now):

I'll be honest, I'm all over the map in who I want to support right now. Extremely noisy stat, but the underwhelming defensive WOWY data is now giving me pause on Jerry West. At this point I cannot guarantee I'll be consistent from thread to thread, as there are about 5 guys I feel have similarly strong cases.

I guess I'll tentatively go with Chris Paul as my pick. Not much length, but built like a tank so he's not easily abused in the post and is one of the best pnr defenders in the league (gets thru those screens and is great fanning his quick hands across the passing angles if he's a quarter-step behind), arguably the most intelligent defender on the table, fierce competitor pretty much every possession, and awfully quick hands too.

His DRAPM's are typically around the +2-2.5 range year after year in recent seasons (typically in big minutes: he's >31,000 career rs minutes), and his defensive on/off's (which are always good) semi-consistently get even better in the playoffs. The Clipper defense fell from -0.6 rDRTG in '17 to +1.6 this year without Paul, and he's got nine All-Defensive honors to his credit (seven 1st Team).

Hopefully that's sufficient support of a vote for CP3.

fwiw, I think West, Blaylock, Stockton, or Cheeks are also fantastic candidates for this spot.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:Micheal Ray richardson. You have a guy who was really really long, contested all the shots, nobody blew by him could disturb the dribble like some of these 6 feet point guards, stole tons of balls, could actually shut down people like a pippen (that's what you can when you're 6'5" with long arms and great athleticism)
Guys, there is a lot about defense that is not iq, help defense (richardson was the perfect help defender for his times) and positioning. You literally play half of your possessions on D and there's a point when you have to literally guard people, disturb their dribble, disturb passing lanes, contesting their shots, preventing their shots.

I can't rank these 3 guys I mentioned but I would probably go 1)MRR 2)derek 3)mo cheeks. DJ is at their level.

MRR was like a walt frazier (for what I understand about how Walt was, even If what I saw about walt disappointed me, I would bet that MRR and derek were better than him on defense) lighter but with better athleticism and longer. I can understand him still not being in his tier because of his short career but still he was at that level of defense

I would like to hear an argument for stock or cp over him, apart from the fact that they played for a lot of years.

Because they were consistently very good, and rated as such, whilst based on what information I have, my impression of Richardson is that he's someone who doesn't belong on the shortlist.

Zander Hollander handbook reviews (segments taken from team section, defense subsection or defense-relevent comments from his general profile - the year on the cover is the year it's a preview for so the 1980 edition would cover the 78-79 season etc)

The Complete Handbook of Pro Basketball 1980 wrote:(Team) Defense
[Nothing specific to Richardson] After the luxury of watching those great defensive teams of the early '70s, Holzman must have nightmares after coaching this group.
Profile
[Nothing specific to defense] Another who was prematurely compared with Frazier by the overzealous N.Y. Ppress ... A better comparison is to [Ray] Williams as a rookie, undisciplined and out of control

The Complete Handbook of Pro Basketball 1981 wrote:(Team) Defense
One of the biggest jokes in the league was that the coaches voted Richardson to the All-Defensive Team because he led the league in steals. Since when does ... oh, never mind, guess those coaches know everything.
Profile
[no mention of defense]

The Complete Handbook of Pro Basketball 1982 wrote:(Team) Defense
Richardson keeps getting names to the All-Defensive team so he must be doing something right. He and Ray Williams finished 2-5 in the league in steals, which means they do a lot of gambling, hoping Cartwright will close up the middle if their men slip past. That, gentlemen, is not playing the percentages.
Profile
Plays solid defense (second in the league in steals) [note: this seems to run counter to the suggestion earlier and insofar as the latter is supposed to be evidence for the former it is somewhat dubious]

...

It continues in this line of thinking. If positively inclined it will note that he must be able to defend well because he made All-D teams, if negatively inclined it will say he gambles too much. There's rarely any mention of anything in particular he does well other than accumulate steals (one year notes quick hands).

These reviews were slightly more optimistic than I remembered, and maybe subject to interpretation (e.g. "he must be doing something right ..." could be genuinely deferring to coaches or the contributor suggesting that he's not seeing it) but I'm not convinced he was an elite defender (I'm not certain that he was good) and I haven't [yet] seen any other lines of evidence that he was.

Versus Stockton, for whom I could cite a number of AAA defense grades in various Rick Barry Scouting Report editions and a pretty solid from-1997-on DRAPM (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-defensive-rapm), honestly I can't see or fathom taking Richardson.

Paul is lower on that version of DRAPM (though still not so far from Kidd, and whilst Kidd benefits from missing out on his youngest years on bad teams being included, Paul doesn't), I think tends to rate well on these impact stats in general (RPM, iirc, has rated him highly - and I'll trust trex in saying better defensively recently) and has certainly seen some serious analysis as an elite defender (this piece is probably the main one that comes to mind http://grantland.com/features/department-of-defense/). I don't think either needs the longevity argument, but they got a big edge there too (especially Stockton and especially in terms of consistent availability/quality which is an issue with Richardson).

Voting for Chris Paul again.

I suppose everything else has been brought up, but what makes him stand out (to me) is that he plays this type of defense in the "point guard era"

I'll vote for John Stockton again; honestly I think it's a joke that Dennis Johnson went fourth, but whatever.

Repeating my vote for Jerry West. I maintain that one reason why West has not received more traction in this project is due to voters who never actually saw him play. Having seen all of the 4 selections thus far, along with West, Stockton, Paul (seemingly the next ones receiving most votes/mentions),here are my reasons for West:

He had more length and reach than either John Stockton or Chris Paul. By his own admission, West said he was 6-4 and a half inches tall with a 6-9 wingspan. In my view, his hands were at least as quick as both Stockton and Paul. From a versatility standpoint, he had the quickness to defend small PG's and the length to defend taller SG's. As a result, his coaches were able to put him on the other team's best offensive guard regardless of their height.

West was named to 4 All-Defensive first team selections and one second team selection. When you consider that such an award did not exist until West was already 30 years old, I think it is entirely reasonable that he could have had 5-7 more selections.

There is no stat to measure b-ball IQ, but I believe West was a GOAT candidate for best b-ball IQ. He was like having a second coach on the floor, which makes sense as West was a head coach for 3 seasons after he retired. Seeing the game from a future coach's perspective gave him the ability as a player to intuitively sense what the other team's next play would be or where the ball would be going. His ability to "sense" what was going to happen, along with his quickness and wingspan, were key factors in his legendary reputation as a ball thief.

Steals and blocks are not always the most relevant stat for a guard's defense but we don't have much in the way of stats for his career. Steals and blocks were only recorded in his last season when West was 35, plagued with injuries and only played in 31 games averaging only 31 minutes/game. Yet, West still averaged 2.6 steals/game, which would have been good for second best in the league if he had enough games to qualify. There is no question his steals and blocks would be far higher during the prime of his career. While we don't have actual stats, ThaRegul8r posted this years ago through his research into newspaper clippings:

Jerry West and steals
0
Post#1 » by ThaRegul8r » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:30 am

I was looking through some old newspapers, and sometimes they would list blocked shots and steals. They weren't officially tabulated by the NBA, but sometimes they would be listed.

January 17, 1968: West had 12 steals.
November 9, 1968: West had 29 points and nine steals as the Lakers beat the Celtics 116-106 for their ninth straight victory.
December 6, 1968: West had eight steals in a 99-94 win over Atlanta.
April 7, 1970: In Game 6 of the 1970 Western Division semifinals against the Phoenix Suns, West scored a game-high 35 points “and was credited with an unofficial 12 steals defensively” in a 104-93 Laker win which tied the series at 3-3 after being down 3-1.
November 11, 1970: West had 26 points, 11 assists and nine steals in a 149-124 win over Seattle.
December 13, 1971: West had 23 points, 15 assists and seven steals in a 129-114 win over Portland for their 22nd consecutive win.
January 18, 1972: West had six steals and hit the game-winner over Walt Frazier in the 1972 All-Star Game to win MVP.
November 10, 1972: West had 27 points, 10 assists and 10 steals in only three quarters in a 118-88 win over Cleveland.
March 25, 1973: In a 109-93 win over Seattle, West had six steals in the third quarter and blocked a shot by Spencer Haywood as the Lakers went from a 47-43 halftime lead to a 79-63 lead after three. Seattle coach Bucky Buckwaiter said, “when Jerry West dies, they ought to cut off his hands and bronze them.”

We know that once steals were officially kept as a statistic, West had an official game of 10 steals, which set an NBA-record at the time. Yet it seems like that might have been fairly routine for West.

Bill Sharman once said, “Although they didn’t keep track of the stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA." Some of the totals listed seems to give credence to his statement.

Regarding those statements from coach Buckwaiter and Sharman (who was a player, coach and GM), for those that never saw him play, it can be useful to understand how others regarded him. I've already posted that in 1970, Bill Russell stated that West was the best defensive player (not just the best defensive guard) in the game. Again, this was not just another "old man yelling at the clouds" about the good old days, this was in 1970 when West was still playing. And Russell was not just "another player", he was the GOAT defensive player talking about defense who was also a former head coach who had to spend more time reviewing scouting reports than someone who was "just a player."

Wilt once said that if blocks had been recorded in his day, West would have finished 3rd in the league in blocks after himself and Russell. Do I believe that? Not a chance, not with Nate Thurmond roaming the court. But do I believe that West's blocks clearly stood out from the other guards for Wilt to make that type of exaggerated statement? Yes, I do. Could he have finished in the top ten in blocks? Don't know, but in a smaller league I think that is certainly possible. For a PG to finish among the league leaders in blocks is beyond an outlier from any discussion that includes Payton, Stockton, CP3, Van Lier, etc.

I've posted repeatedly that I have never seen an actual time-machine so I don't engage in science fiction discussions on a basketball forum, although I do engage in science fiction discussions in comic book forums (big super hero fan!). So I am not making any statements about how West would do if he took a time machine to 2018 or 1950, just as I don't make any statements about whether Stockton or Paul would be among the league leaders in blocks in 1965. I do look at how each player did in real life, not science fiction, at the time they played against others who played under the same rules, the same available medical treatments, the same nutrition and training knowledge and practices, etc. Looking at how West played in real life, I think he is a very legitimate candidate for GOAT defensive guard, certainly more than enough for a 'top 5 PG'.

I vote Stockton

cecilthesheep wrote:I honestly I think it's a joke that Dennis Johnson went fourth...

Why?

trex_8063 wrote:

cecilthesheep wrote:I honestly I think it's a joke that Dennis Johnson went fourth...

Why?

His best defensive years came as an off-guard. He didn't move to point until the second half of his career, and by that time he was not quite on the same level defensively as he had been, although he was still good. So I expressed myself poorly - I shouldn't have said "joke", because he was a great defensive player, I just don't think he should be considered for this category. I guess since he is, though, it's not unreasonable to put him fourth.

Vote Chris Paul

The best defensive PG in the best offensive era for PGs. Great +/- data and his team results check out as he had good def teams in New Orleans, top 10 def teams in Clippers despite not much help on the rest of the roster, and big improvement in Hou despite replacing Beverley. A lot of PG defense in modern game is about team D and he's great at that in addition to being solid on ball.

penbeast0 wrote:I looked back at the All-D teams and a few things struck me, for what it's worth.
1950s didn't have them but Slater Martin was still starting for winning teams (the STL team that beat the Celtics for example) up to the end of the decade and from everything I've heard, he was the best defensive guard of that era
1960s didn't have them but I can't see Wali Jones over KC Jones or West
1970s, West was voted ahead of Norm Van Lier in his last 3 full years
1980s, Cheeks didn't make a lot early, Dennis Johnson was pretty much a given; then Mo started getting mentioned ahead of DJ for the later part of the 80s although DJ was usually the 2nd team guy.
1990s, Mookie got the 1st team awards ahead of Stockton until the ascension of Payton
2000s were pretty much shooting guards until Paul came into the league, no one else got regular consistent mentions

So, for now, I will limit my analysis to these guys:

KC Jones
Jerry West
Maurice Cheeks
Mookie Blaylock
Chris Paul

Of them, only West really has the size and versatility to switch onto big guards, ATL is the team that I see overachieving the most defensively, Paul seems to have the DRAPM numbers but then someone pointed out that Rubio and another active guard had better ones.

I will throw in a tentative vote for Jerry West. Very tentative here but while Cheeks, Paul, and KC seem more fundamentally sound defensively, none seem to lift their teams substantially leaving Mookie and West. West has versatility and career arc on Mookie so . . . .

Vote: Jerry West