#5 Place RUN-OFF (Jerry West, John Stockton, Chris Paul) the ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

Ok, honestly I would have given the victory to jerry west, but, we can settle it with a run-off. We had cp3, stockton and jerry west tied at 5, then we had one late (just 32 minutes) vote for jerry, and another maybe late vote for him. We could move on but maybe it's better this way.

So, I'll leave this open for 15 hours. Vote for the best defenders of these 3: Jerry West, John Stockton, Chris Paul. If you already voted for one of them in the previous thread, you can obviously partecipate but can't vote again. I will count the two late votes for jerry west, so we start with West at two (pistolpeteJR, homecourtloss) stockton and cp3 at 0.

Let's go!

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West, John Stockton, Chris Paul

[Gibson22]

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[Gibson22]

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

[Gibson22]

guys..

I am confused by the rules - shouldn't a runoff be used in the event of a tie? By my count, here is the breakdown:
West - 7 (Samurai, Penbeast, Pandrade, SkyHookFTW, Eminence, HeartbreakKid, PistolPete JR)
Stockton - 5 (Cecil, Luigi, Iggymcfrack, Bounce9, LABird)
CP3 - 5 (TRex, Knickfan, Dr. Positivity, Uberhikiri, Lost 92 Bricks)

In round 3, Payton won by only 1 vote even though some were received after the deadline. If that one didn't require a runoff, why are we doing a runoff when the leader is ahead by 2 votes?

If you're going to do something like this you need to establish clear rules and guidelines, if you're going to wing it the project won't last.

If you're going to do something like this you need to establish clear rules and guidelines, if you're going to wing it the project won't last.

I agree. Changing the rules in the middle (if you win by one vote, you win even if it ran over the "deadline". If you win by two votes, we go to a runoff) seems very confusing as if the goalposts are shifting. I would suggest just state the guidelines, particularly regarding positions (X will be counted as a PG, Y will be counted as a SF, Z will be counted as a C, etc) and how voting will be tabulated (what are the deadlines and how are they enforced, do posters need to provide a reason - some do and some don't, etc). I think we just need to know the rules ahead of time; if it seems that the goal posts are shifting, personally I would lose interest in this project.

Do you guys have any issue? What rules have I changed? When did I count late votes (I only counted one vote for west in the thread won by payton, it didn't influence the results). We never counted late votes, and we will never do it. About the positions: we already stated multiple times that before going moving on with the next position, we make a list of candidates, and there, we try to give an official position to the players whose role is in doubt. We will do it before every role. What are the rules that needed to be estabilished? Anyway, I'm sorry for any type of confusion, it wasn't my intention.

[penbeast0]

Vote for West again as no one convinced me

[PistolPeteJR]

JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!

[Gibson22]

Vote for West again as no one convinced me

No, just votes by members who didn't vote for west, stockton or cp3

[Gibson22]

JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!

Your vote and homecourtloss' one were already casted, since you voted just after the deadline

[PistolPeteJR]

JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!

Your vote and homecourtloss' one were already casted, since you voted just after the deadline

Yeah but someone's gotta spearhead the cheer...

[Gibson22]

I vote for Jerry West. He had the size and great wingspan, he had fast hands, and I've never been very impressed with john stockton's defense. I don't think there's a big difference between him and chris paul, but I'm pretty comfortable picking jerry

[mdonnelly1989]

Jerry West. He was considered the best defensive guard behind Walt during that time.

[Gibson22]

Obviously jerry west 4, cp3 and john stockton 0, as of now

[trex_8063]

I've already thrown in with CP3, so I'll not change that now, but I'll repost my prior arguments for West, just since it's sorta relevant now.
I'm pretty content whichever way this runoff goes. Paul, West, and Stockton were the likely three (in some order) I'd be supporting for #5-7 here (with Mo Cheeks possibly sneaking in there somewhere). So I'm pretty happy no matter what happens here.

Re-post from prior thread:


Let's first be clear about West's size/length. Do not be fooled by the 6'2" height listing that has largely stuck with him. He's on record indicating it was a without shoes height recorded as a freshman at West Virginia U, and it just stuck. He's on record later [in retirement] saying his without shoes height is closer to 6'4" (I'll see if I can find the audio interview where that is stated later). I'll provide some photographic evidence.....

Here he is next to [the 6'3"] Stephen Curry:

Who looks taller?

Here he is next to [the listed 6'6"] Kobe Bryant:


Does there look like 4" difference between them?

Here he is next to [6'4"] Dwyane Wade:

They look pretty dead even.

Bear in mind these are all old [possibly shrunken?] pics of Jerry West.I feel it's safe to say that West would likely be listed as at least 6'4" today (even 6'5" is not inconceivable).
And then let's add to that consideration of his reach: he's got very long arms for his height (sort of high-set shoulders like Kevin McHale, too, for that matter). One of the commentators on the video I'm linking below notes that West wears a size 38 sleeve on his suit jackets to accommodate the long arms.
He put this length to great use in help defense, getting into passing lanes, or reaching.

Here he is using that length to eliminate a shot at the rim in college:



His anticipation is fantastic, and his attention and defensive intelligence in seeing plays develop is also excellent. Some highlights can be seen in the following video (which was linked in the last thread, too); I particularly like the help-defense block at the rim on the play starting at ~0:40....

Watch on YouTube

He got All-Defensive 2nd Team the first year it was offered, and All-Defensive 1st Team the next three years in a row. Likely would have received honors in '74, too, if not for injury; in the 31 games played he was averaging a ridiculous 3.0 steals/36 minutes (3.6 per 100 possessions), even on his last legs at age 35.
fwiw, Bill Russell is on record in the early 70's saying Jerry West was the best defensive player in the league (not the best defensive guard, but the best defensive PLAYER), and iirc also suggesting that as good as West is offensively, that he's even better defensively.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote for Chris Paul

[Gibson22]

Jerry West 4, CP3 1, Stockton 0.

Jerry West wins the 5th place.

[PistolPeteJR]

Finally lol.