The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1

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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#341 » by limbo » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:39 am

For as long as i can remember, one of the biggest complains about CP3's game was that he selfishly monopolizes the ball on offense and makes every possession about how much he can dribble around in search for the perfect pass while making the offense stagnant. I thought that was one of the dumbest things i've heard, but if there was even a modicum of doubt about his offensive flexibility and impact it was dispelled in the last two and a half years basically. First he joins the most dominant on-ball player in NBA history in Houston and adapts/sacrifices his game to form the greatest back-court of all time. And now, at 34 years of age, he's been forcefully traded into a young/flawed team where he fully embraced a more egalitarian style of offense and seems to be perfectly fine sharing the court with several ball-handlers. Not only that, they seemingly found a way to thrive together off their strengths and minimized their weaknesses.

CP3 is one of the best players of all-time and that's with accounting for the fact that he was historically derailed by inopportune injuries and bad luck. Arguably the best player to potentially never win a ring. Deal with it.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#342 » by Peregrine01 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:02 am

+1. Most here appreciate him. It’s the mainstream rankings that dont even have him ranked in the all decade teams.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#343 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:42 am

limbo wrote:For as long as i can remember, one of the biggest complains about CP3's game was that he selfishly monopolizes the ball on offense and makes every possession about how much he can dribble around in search for the perfect pass while making the offense stagnant. I thought that was one of the dumbest things i've heard, but if there was even a modicum of doubt about his offensive flexibility and impact it was dispelled in the last two and a half years basically. First he joins the most dominant on-ball player in NBA history in Houston and adapts/sacrifices his game to form the greatest back-court of all time. And now, at 34 years of age, he's been forcefully traded into a young/flawed team where he fully embraced a more egalitarian style of offense and seems to be perfectly fine sharing the court with several ball-handlers. Not only that, they seemingly found a way to thrive together off their strengths and minimized their weaknesses.

CP3 is one of the best players of all-time and that's with accounting for the fact that he was historically derailed by inopportune injuries and bad luck. Arguably the best player to potentially never win a ring. Deal with it.


Definitely. Very impressive run in OKC. I think he's really solidified his case as the best point guard of all time.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#344 » by GSP » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:53 am

limbo wrote:For as long as i can remember, one of the biggest complains about CP3's game was that he selfishly monopolizes the ball on offense and makes every possession about how much he can dribble around in search for the perfect pass while making the offense stagnant.


Its something many of his teammates have complained about to be fair

Lets not pretend like Clips Cp3 had the same mentality he does now. And he was in an iso system in Houston so he kinda had to hold the ball

Even Nick Young was a recent former teammate to complain about his style of "passing the grenade" to not hurt his Fga/turnover numbers in the past

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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#345 » by GSP » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:56 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
limbo wrote:For as long as i can remember, one of the biggest complains about CP3's game was that he selfishly monopolizes the ball on offense and makes every possession about how much he can dribble around in search for the perfect pass while making the offense stagnant. I thought that was one of the dumbest things i've heard, but if there was even a modicum of doubt about his offensive flexibility and impact it was dispelled in the last two and a half years basically. First he joins the most dominant on-ball player in NBA history in Houston and adapts/sacrifices his game to form the greatest back-court of all time. And now, at 34 years of age, he's been forcefully traded into a young/flawed team where he fully embraced a more egalitarian style of offense and seems to be perfectly fine sharing the court with several ball-handlers. Not only that, they seemingly found a way to thrive together off their strengths and minimized their weaknesses.

CP3 is one of the best players of all-time and that's with accounting for the fact that he was historically derailed by inopportune injuries and bad luck. Arguably the best player to potentially never win a ring. Deal with it.


Definitely. Very impressive run in OKC. I think he's really solidified his case as the best point guard of all time.


With a 21 Per, 4.5 Bpm and 2 Vorp?

Adams has him beat in Per, Ts%, ws/48, Bpm, Vorp, oncourt +/- and on/off so how is Cp3s case solidified when he hasnt even solidified himself as his team's best or most important player?
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#346 » by Bobbcats » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:58 am

I wonder if he is now benefitting from having his knee injury so early.

He was certainly looking like he was going to be a special player after his first four seasons, then the next 2 seasons it looked like his career had been completely derailed and it happened to be while the same thing was happening to Roy.

I never see it mentioned but the worst stretch of his career wasn't the last couple seasons but the 5th and 6th seasons between when he ran into the sideline camera and the Lakers series from which point on he was a top PG again. During that time he went from living in the lane and creating openings with his drives to being a player who ran the offense pretty much exclusively from the perimeter, but at the end he had mastered it.

I feel like losing his athleticism while he was still young and adaptable is a huge advantage now. Most players don't have to learn all the old man tricks and how to be effective as a short unathletic guy when they're 24, and it's a lot easier to learn things and develop habits when you're young.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#347 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:39 am

GSP wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
limbo wrote:For as long as i can remember, one of the biggest complains about CP3's game was that he selfishly monopolizes the ball on offense and makes every possession about how much he can dribble around in search for the perfect pass while making the offense stagnant. I thought that was one of the dumbest things i've heard, but if there was even a modicum of doubt about his offensive flexibility and impact it was dispelled in the last two and a half years basically. First he joins the most dominant on-ball player in NBA history in Houston and adapts/sacrifices his game to form the greatest back-court of all time. And now, at 34 years of age, he's been forcefully traded into a young/flawed team where he fully embraced a more egalitarian style of offense and seems to be perfectly fine sharing the court with several ball-handlers. Not only that, they seemingly found a way to thrive together off their strengths and minimized their weaknesses.

CP3 is one of the best players of all-time and that's with accounting for the fact that he was historically derailed by inopportune injuries and bad luck. Arguably the best player to potentially never win a ring. Deal with it.


Definitely. Very impressive run in OKC. I think he's really solidified his case as the best point guard of all time.


With a 21 Per, 4.5 Bpm and 2 Vorp?

Adams has him beat in Per, Ts%, ws/48, Bpm, Vorp, oncourt +/- and on/off so how is Cp3s case solidified when he hasnt even solidified himself as his team's best or most important player?


Just by showing how much his style of play affects winning beyond what the box score says in a different environment. He’s always had incredible impact numbers, but leading a fourth team to success event when his numbers aren’t quite what they used to be shows that the defense and playmaking he’s exhibited throughout his career really do have a major impact on winning beyond the impressive numbers he’s put up throughout his career.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#348 » by 70sFan » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:20 am

Paul is definitely one of the best PGs ever, but best ever? I don't see him over Magic or West and Oscar/Curry have very good cases over him too.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#349 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:59 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
limbo wrote:For as long as i can remember, one of the biggest complains about CP3's game was that he selfishly monopolizes the ball on offense and makes every possession about how much he can dribble around in search for the perfect pass while making the offense stagnant. I thought that was one of the dumbest things i've heard, but if there was even a modicum of doubt about his offensive flexibility and impact it was dispelled in the last two and a half years basically. First he joins the most dominant on-ball player in NBA history in Houston and adapts/sacrifices his game to form the greatest back-court of all time. And now, at 34 years of age, he's been forcefully traded into a young/flawed team where he fully embraced a more egalitarian style of offense and seems to be perfectly fine sharing the court with several ball-handlers. Not only that, they seemingly found a way to thrive together off their strengths and minimized their weaknesses.

CP3 is one of the best players of all-time and that's with accounting for the fact that he was historically derailed by inopportune injuries and bad luck. Arguably the best player to potentially never win a ring. Deal with it.


Definitely. Very impressive run in OKC. I think he's really solidified his case as the best point guard of all time.


Bro are you on here just to spit out hot takes and dip?
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#350 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:16 am

70sFan wrote:Paul is definitely one of the best PGs ever, but best ever? I don't see him over Magic or West and Oscar/Curry have very good cases over him too.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Chris+Paul&player_id1_select=Chris+Paul&y1=2020&player_id1=paulch01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Magic+Johnson&player_id2_select=Magic+Johnson&y2=1996&player_id2=johnsma02&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Oscar+Robertson&player_id3_select=Oscar+Robertson&y3=1974&player_id3=roberos01&idx=players&player_id4_hint=Jerry+West&player_id4_select=Jerry+West&y4=1974&player_id4=westje01&idx=players&player_id5_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id5_select=Stephen+Curry&y5=2020&player_id5=curryst01&idx=players

Paul has best regular season numbers of the five, the best postseason numbers, is the best defender, and has the second best longevity. He also has incredible impact stats (which are admittedly difficult to compare with the rest).

Magic is the one who’s the closest IMO and while I know he threw more difficult passes than the rest in a way that doesn’t show up in the box score, I find it hard for the difference between the greatest passer of all-time and a top 5 passer of all-time to be enough to make up for the difference between an average to below average defender and one of the 5 best defenders of all-time at his position. I just can’t see anything Magic does on offense making up for that huge of a delta or for it to even be close enough to just give Magic the benefit of the doubt based on postseason success.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#351 » by 70sFan » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:48 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:Paul is definitely one of the best PGs ever, but best ever? I don't see him over Magic or West and Oscar/Curry have very good cases over him too.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Chris+Paul&player_id1_select=Chris+Paul&y1=2020&player_id1=paulch01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Magic+Johnson&player_id2_select=Magic+Johnson&y2=1996&player_id2=johnsma02&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Oscar+Robertson&player_id3_select=Oscar+Robertson&y3=1974&player_id3=roberos01&idx=players&player_id4_hint=Jerry+West&player_id4_select=Jerry+West&y4=1974&player_id4=westje01&idx=players&player_id5_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id5_select=Stephen+Curry&y5=2020&player_id5=curryst01&idx=players

Paul has best regular season numbers of the five, the best postseason numbers, is the best defender, and has the second best longevity. He also has incredible impact stats (which are admittedly difficult to compare with the rest).

Magic is the one who’s the closest IMO and while I know he threw more difficult passes than the rest in a way that doesn’t show up in the box score, I find it hard for the difference between the greatest passer of all-time and a top 5 passer of all-time to be enough to make up for the difference between an average to below average defender and one of the 5 best defenders of all-time at his position. I just can’t see anything Magic does on offense making up for that huge of a delta or for it to even be close enough to just give Magic the benefit of the doubt based on postseason success.

What numbers? PER? BPM? These stats are meaningless in between eras comparison. Sometimes it's not that simple that "best passer vs top 5 passer isn't enough". Paul and Magic had much different approaches on basketball court. Magic was far more agressive and active offensive player, he also made the most of his teammates. Combined that with his GOAT transition game and his size, he was more resistant to defensive pressure and he had more ways to impact the game. I also don't see Paul as that great defensive player. He was amazing, but his defensive impact is limited due to his size. Magic also wasn't weak defender until very late in his career.

Also, based on what I've seen, West was clearly better defender than Paul.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#352 » by iggymcfrack » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:43 am

70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:Paul is definitely one of the best PGs ever, but best ever? I don't see him over Magic or West and Oscar/Curry have very good cases over him too.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Chris+Paul&player_id1_select=Chris+Paul&y1=2020&player_id1=paulch01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Magic+Johnson&player_id2_select=Magic+Johnson&y2=1996&player_id2=johnsma02&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Oscar+Robertson&player_id3_select=Oscar+Robertson&y3=1974&player_id3=roberos01&idx=players&player_id4_hint=Jerry+West&player_id4_select=Jerry+West&y4=1974&player_id4=westje01&idx=players&player_id5_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id5_select=Stephen+Curry&y5=2020&player_id5=curryst01&idx=players

Paul has best regular season numbers of the five, the best postseason numbers, is the best defender, and has the second best longevity. He also has incredible impact stats (which are admittedly difficult to compare with the rest).

Magic is the one who’s the closest IMO and while I know he threw more difficult passes than the rest in a way that doesn’t show up in the box score, I find it hard for the difference between the greatest passer of all-time and a top 5 passer of all-time to be enough to make up for the difference between an average to below average defender and one of the 5 best defenders of all-time at his position. I just can’t see anything Magic does on offense making up for that huge of a delta or for it to even be close enough to just give Magic the benefit of the doubt based on postseason success.

What numbers? PER? BPM? These stats are meaningless in between eras comparison. Sometimes it's not that simple that "best passer vs top 5 passer isn't enough". Paul and Magic had much different approaches on basketball court. Magic was far more agressive and active offensive player, he also made the most of his teammates. Combined that with his GOAT transition game and his size, he was more resistant to defensive pressure and he had more ways to impact the game. I also don't see Paul as that great defensive player. He was amazing, but his defensive impact is limited due to his size. Magic also wasn't weak defender until very late in his career.

Also, based on what I've seen, West was clearly better defender than Paul.


When Chris Paul at 33 years old, got switched on to KD in the Western Conference Finals who’s 7 feet tall and arguably the best scorer in the history of the NBA, KD couldn’t take advantage of the mismatch. Paul batted the ball away and made tough contests on shots and it wasn’t really an advantage for KD. I can’t imagine West ever defending like that. The impact numbers show Paul as best defender at his position for over a decade too. West had a great defensive reputation but so did guys like Payton who turned out to be much less impressive than thought previously once cold hard data was included.

Honestly I’d say that the difference between Russell and Shaq on defense is probably pretty similar to the difference between Paul and Magic. If there were ever any numbers that suggested that Bill Russell might be a better offensive player than Shaq, I think everyone would agree that Russell was the better overall player even if a more comprehensive analysis would give Shaq a significant edge on offense.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#353 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:01 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Chris+Paul&player_id1_select=Chris+Paul&y1=2020&player_id1=paulch01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Magic+Johnson&player_id2_select=Magic+Johnson&y2=1996&player_id2=johnsma02&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Oscar+Robertson&player_id3_select=Oscar+Robertson&y3=1974&player_id3=roberos01&idx=players&player_id4_hint=Jerry+West&player_id4_select=Jerry+West&y4=1974&player_id4=westje01&idx=players&player_id5_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id5_select=Stephen+Curry&y5=2020&player_id5=curryst01&idx=players

Paul has best regular season numbers of the five, the best postseason numbers, is the best defender, and has the second best longevity. He also has incredible impact stats (which are admittedly difficult to compare with the rest).

Magic is the one who’s the closest IMO and while I know he threw more difficult passes than the rest in a way that doesn’t show up in the box score, I find it hard for the difference between the greatest passer of all-time and a top 5 passer of all-time to be enough to make up for the difference between an average to below average defender and one of the 5 best defenders of all-time at his position. I just can’t see anything Magic does on offense making up for that huge of a delta or for it to even be close enough to just give Magic the benefit of the doubt based on postseason success.

What numbers? PER? BPM? These stats are meaningless in between eras comparison. Sometimes it's not that simple that "best passer vs top 5 passer isn't enough". Paul and Magic had much different approaches on basketball court. Magic was far more agressive and active offensive player, he also made the most of his teammates. Combined that with his GOAT transition game and his size, he was more resistant to defensive pressure and he had more ways to impact the game. I also don't see Paul as that great defensive player. He was amazing, but his defensive impact is limited due to his size. Magic also wasn't weak defender until very late in his career.

Also, based on what I've seen, West was clearly better defender than Paul.


When Chris Paul at 33 years old, got switched on to KD in the Western Conference Finals who’s 7 feet tall and arguably the best scorer in the history of the NBA, KD couldn’t take advantage of the mismatch. Paul batted the ball away and made tough contests on shots and it wasn’t really an advantage for KD. I can’t imagine West ever defending like that. The impact numbers show Paul as best defender at his position for over a decade too. West had a great defensive reputation but so did guys like Payton who turned out to be much less impressive than thought previously once cold hard data was included.

Honestly I’d say that the difference between Russell and Shaq on defense is probably pretty similar to the difference between Paul and Magic. If there were ever any numbers that suggested that Bill Russell might be a better offensive player than Shaq, I think everyone would agree that Russell was the better overall player even if a more comprehensive analysis would give Shaq a significant edge on offense.


I mean Paul played good D on him but they definitely weren’t just letting durant iso him, they were totally doubling lol. If they let KD go against Paul 1v1 over 7 games Paul would die lmao

Your second point isn’t a given at all lol, most people have peak shaq over peak Russell

Edit: thought u meant in 2014 lol, but tbh either way they were definitely helping a lot on durant, who just isn’t great against help defense
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#354 » by iggymcfrack » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:05 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:What numbers? PER? BPM? These stats are meaningless in between eras comparison. Sometimes it's not that simple that "best passer vs top 5 passer isn't enough". Paul and Magic had much different approaches on basketball court. Magic was far more agressive and active offensive player, he also made the most of his teammates. Combined that with his GOAT transition game and his size, he was more resistant to defensive pressure and he had more ways to impact the game. I also don't see Paul as that great defensive player. He was amazing, but his defensive impact is limited due to his size. Magic also wasn't weak defender until very late in his career.

Also, based on what I've seen, West was clearly better defender than Paul.


When Chris Paul at 33 years old, got switched on to KD in the Western Conference Finals who’s 7 feet tall and arguably the best scorer in the history of the NBA, KD couldn’t take advantage of the mismatch. Paul batted the ball away and made tough contests on shots and it wasn’t really an advantage for KD. I can’t imagine West ever defending like that. The impact numbers show Paul as best defender at his position for over a decade too. West had a great defensive reputation but so did guys like Payton who turned out to be much less impressive than thought previously once cold hard data was included.

Honestly I’d say that the difference between Russell and Shaq on defense is probably pretty similar to the difference between Paul and Magic. If there were ever any numbers that suggested that Bill Russell might be a better offensive player than Shaq, I think everyone would agree that Russell was the better overall player even if a more comprehensive analysis would give Shaq a significant edge on offense.


I mean Paul played good D on him but they definitely weren’t just letting durant iso him, they were totally doubling lol. If they let KD go against Paul 1v1 over 7 games Paul would die lmao

Your second point isn’t a given at all lol, most people have peak shaq over peak Russell

Edit: thought u meant in 2014 lol


That’s my point though, Shaq was 1000x the player Russell was on offense and it’s still considered close due to defense even though the defensive difference is pretty close to the defensive difference between Paul and Magic. If Russell had been arguably better on offense it wouldn’t have been close.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#355 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:08 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
When Chris Paul at 33 years old, got switched on to KD in the Western Conference Finals who’s 7 feet tall and arguably the best scorer in the history of the NBA, KD couldn’t take advantage of the mismatch. Paul batted the ball away and made tough contests on shots and it wasn’t really an advantage for KD. I can’t imagine West ever defending like that. The impact numbers show Paul as best defender at his position for over a decade too. West had a great defensive reputation but so did guys like Payton who turned out to be much less impressive than thought previously once cold hard data was included.

Honestly I’d say that the difference between Russell and Shaq on defense is probably pretty similar to the difference between Paul and Magic. If there were ever any numbers that suggested that Bill Russell might be a better offensive player than Shaq, I think everyone would agree that Russell was the better overall player even if a more comprehensive analysis would give Shaq a significant edge on offense.


I mean Paul played good D on him but they definitely weren’t just letting durant iso him, they were totally doubling lol. If they let KD go against Paul 1v1 over 7 games Paul would die lmao

Your second point isn’t a given at all lol, most people have peak shaq over peak Russell

Edit: thought u meant in 2014 lol


That’s my point though, Shaq was 1000x the player Russell was on offense and it’s still considered close due to defense even though the defensive difference is pretty close to the defensive difference between Paul and Magic. If Russell had been arguably better on offense it wouldn’t have been close.


I mean it’s an era thing too obviously, obviously Russell wouldn’t have the same defensive impact today, and the defensive difference isn’t near close to Paul and Magic.

I mean I’m not gonna lie Paul just isn’t better all time than magic thats kind of a joke lmao and I don’t think you seriously think that
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#356 » by limbo » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:20 am

CP3 currently has 4 points (2/4 FG), 3 assists and 1 TO and he is -9 in a game his team is down by 30 points. Funny how that goes.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#357 » by Lost92Bricks » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:23 am

CP faced the greatest offensive team of all-time and was making a defensive impact. He is absolutely a great defender. Go back and watch his game 4 against the Warriors in Golden State a couple years ago and you'll see.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#358 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:26 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:CP faced the greatest offensive team of all-time and was making a defensive impact. He is absolutely a great defender. Go back and watch his game 4 against the Warriors in Golden State a couple years ago and you'll see.


I didn’t say he wasn’t a great defender

But he isn’t the GOAT point guard lol that’s jokes
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#359 » by 70sFan » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:41 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Chris+Paul&player_id1_select=Chris+Paul&y1=2020&player_id1=paulch01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Magic+Johnson&player_id2_select=Magic+Johnson&y2=1996&player_id2=johnsma02&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Oscar+Robertson&player_id3_select=Oscar+Robertson&y3=1974&player_id3=roberos01&idx=players&player_id4_hint=Jerry+West&player_id4_select=Jerry+West&y4=1974&player_id4=westje01&idx=players&player_id5_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id5_select=Stephen+Curry&y5=2020&player_id5=curryst01&idx=players

Paul has best regular season numbers of the five, the best postseason numbers, is the best defender, and has the second best longevity. He also has incredible impact stats (which are admittedly difficult to compare with the rest).

Magic is the one who’s the closest IMO and while I know he threw more difficult passes than the rest in a way that doesn’t show up in the box score, I find it hard for the difference between the greatest passer of all-time and a top 5 passer of all-time to be enough to make up for the difference between an average to below average defender and one of the 5 best defenders of all-time at his position. I just can’t see anything Magic does on offense making up for that huge of a delta or for it to even be close enough to just give Magic the benefit of the doubt based on postseason success.

What numbers? PER? BPM? These stats are meaningless in between eras comparison. Sometimes it's not that simple that "best passer vs top 5 passer isn't enough". Paul and Magic had much different approaches on basketball court. Magic was far more agressive and active offensive player, he also made the most of his teammates. Combined that with his GOAT transition game and his size, he was more resistant to defensive pressure and he had more ways to impact the game. I also don't see Paul as that great defensive player. He was amazing, but his defensive impact is limited due to his size. Magic also wasn't weak defender until very late in his career.

Also, based on what I've seen, West was clearly better defender than Paul.


When Chris Paul at 33 years old, got switched on to KD in the Western Conference Finals who’s 7 feet tall and arguably the best scorer in the history of the NBA, KD couldn’t take advantage of the mismatch. Paul batted the ball away and made tough contests on shots and it wasn’t really an advantage for KD. I can’t imagine West ever defending like that. The impact numbers show Paul as best defender at his position for over a decade too. West had a great defensive reputation but so did guys like Payton who turned out to be much less impressive than thought previously once cold hard data was included.

Honestly I’d say that the difference between Russell and Shaq on defense is probably pretty similar to the difference between Paul and Magic. If there were ever any numbers that suggested that Bill Russell might be a better offensive player than Shaq, I think everyone would agree that Russell was the better overall player even if a more comprehensive analysis would give Shaq a significant edge on offense.

KD also struggled against Patrick Beverly with help defense, he just struggles against doubles. It is impressive indeed but let's not act like Paul did something that we haven't seen before.

I don't judge West by reputation. I've seen almost 15 West games and he's unbelievable. His motor on defense was amazing, his help defense was always there and he was bigger and longer than Paul.

Your analogy doesn't work here, because Russell was so good defensively that he made any roster the best defense in the league. You can see that by looking at rosters change in his career - Celtics were always GOAT-level. Then when he retired they rapidly became average. As good as Paul is on defense, he doesn't guarantee you elite results. Clippers were usually mediocre defensively and he had DeAndre Jordan, so it's not like he was surrounded by terrible defenders. So no, I don't agree with your conclusion based on this analogy. Russell gives you GOAT defense no matter what, Paul gives you great defense at his position which doesn't have to translate to great defense. Gaps aren't comparable at all.
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Re: The CP3 Thread 18-19 Part 1 

Post#360 » by 70sFan » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:43 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:CP faced the greatest offensive team of all-time and was making a defensive impact. He is absolutely a great defender. Go back and watch his game 4 against the Warriors in Golden State a couple years ago and you'll see.

I agree, but I'm not sure if he's great enough to overcome Magic's advantage on offense.

Also, West was great defender too. Saying that he's inferior than West doesn't make him any lesser.

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