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Want to see how he does with Harden and Melo now.

For once he looks a little slimmer to start off the season.

He was having such a good game, best player on the court...and then that happens.

Last 3 games:

Easily the most underappreciated ATG of the nearly 3 decades I've been following the league. Pulling for him hard this year in the post-season.

Same ceiling as last year. Elbow tendonitis has kept him from having another full-blown prime year.

He is seriously one of the greatest players ever. I think a top 10 ish on-court guy in basketball history. His "bad" stretch this season actually opened my eyes to how good he was(edit: not really but it was a different angle, heh.). Because his impact, while having career low usage and a broken jumper, his impact metrics was sill fringe-all star level. (RPM, PIPM)

And it made me realize, this guy does not spend a single possession not trying to tilt the game. He literally never wastes a possession on either end. He's playing every angle either with unusual amounts of communication(that has actual substance to it), directing offense off the ball, setting good screens, his Bogut/Draymond/Iggy off-ball defense tactics of basically fouling big men who go up for put-backs and try to rotate, boxing out well, rebounding, and THEN the more obvious playmaking with the ball, deflections and shot making.

His ball-hawking gets a little underrated as well. He cuts off passing lanes more than he actual gets steals. His best defensive years have will always come in a system where he doesn't switch. Not just because his switching is a weakness, but because he is devastating as PNR defender. He led the NBA in defensive PNR PPP for several years. He's strong enough to fight through screens and quck enough to go under them and recover in time to contain penetration, as well as quick with his swim moves over the screens.


You add the playoff resiliency that comes with having elite level: Brains, skills and approach, and I really don't think there are almost any one-way players better than(clearly better anyway) than prime Chris Paul.

The two-way monsters: Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Kareem, Hakeem (I intentionally excluded Wilt and Robinson)

And elite two way offensive forces: LeBron, Jordan, Bird

Are the only guys clearly better on any level in my opinion.


I really don't see any other players in history clearly being better across situations, H2H, etc. Same level.

ShotCreator wrote:Same ceiling as last year. Elbow tendonitis has kept him from having another full-blown prime year.

He is seriously one of the greatest players ever. I think a top 10 ish on-court guy in basketball history. His "bad" stretch this season actually opened my eyes to how good he was(edit: not really but it was a different angle, heh.). Because his impact, while having career low usage and a broken jumper, his impact metrics was sill fringe-all star level. (RPM, PIPM)

And it made me realize, this guy does not spend a single possession not trying to tilt the game. He literally never wastes a possession on either end. He's playing every angle either with unusual amounts of communication(that has actual substance to it), directing offense off the ball, setting good screens, his Bogut/Draymond/Iggy off-ball defense tactics of basically fouling big men who go up for put-backs and try to rotate, boxing out well, rebounding, and THEN the more obvious playmaking with the ball, deflections and shot making.

His ball-hawking gets a little underrated as well. He cuts off passing lanes more than he actual gets steals. His best defensive years have will always come in a system where he doesn't switch. Not just because his switching is a weakness, but because he is devastating as PNR defender. He led the NBA in defensive PNR PPP for several years. He's strong enough to fight through screens and quck enough to go under them and recover in time to contain penetration, as well as quick with his swim moves over the screens.


You add the playoff resiliency that comes with having elite level: Brains, skills and approach, and I really don't think there are almost any one-way players better than(clearly better anyway) than prime Chris Paul.

The two-way monsters: Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Kareem, Hakeem (I intentionally excluded Wilt and Robinson)

And elite two way offensive forces: LeBron, Jordan, Bird

Are the only guys clearly better on any level in my opinion.


I really don't see any other players in history clearly being better across situations, H2H, etc. Same level.

Amazing post man. So glad to see Paul get the love he deserves. I’ve said before I think his 08-18 run is one of the five best ten year stretches in NBA history and I stand by it. Dude is amazing to watch.

I think the move to a more veteran team in the Rockets has really helped him in this phase of his career. He and Blake and DAJ never liked each other. I think Blake was young and clearly sensitive and didn’t want to take direction. But you can see how much the Rockets guys appreciate when he’s always looking out for them (watch the end of the Warriors game where Tucker gets the defensive rebound and someone is coming to poke it out from behind and you hear Paul yelling “PJ! PJ!” Across the court and then running over to take the outlet). In LA he was always accused of “barking” but as you said there’s real substance behind what he says. He and JJ were really close, I think Paul just needs to play with veterans.

I always laugh when I see people critiquing his playoffs performances because I legit think his performance in these past WCFs could only be pulled off by like 3 or 4 guys in NBA history. It’s outrageous how good he was and if healthy he would’ve closed out GSW in 6 (a series that should not have been close based on talent level) and gotten his much deserved ring. It was **** heroic. He was the CLEAR best player on the floor at age 34 despite sharing the court with 4 of the previous five MVPs.

Paul is a GENIUS in every sense of the word and I don’t say that lightly. If I could guarantee health he would be on a very short list of players I’d want to run my team.

Dr Spaceman wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:Same ceiling as last year. Elbow tendonitis has kept him from having another full-blown prime year.

He is seriously one of the greatest players ever. I think a top 10 ish on-court guy in basketball history. His "bad" stretch this season actually opened my eyes to how good he was(edit: not really but it was a different angle, heh.). Because his impact, while having career low usage and a broken jumper, his impact metrics was sill fringe-all star level. (RPM, PIPM)

And it made me realize, this guy does not spend a single possession not trying to tilt the game. He literally never wastes a possession on either end. He's playing every angle either with unusual amounts of communication(that has actual substance to it), directing offense off the ball, setting good screens, his Bogut/Draymond/Iggy off-ball defense tactics of basically fouling big men who go up for put-backs and try to rotate, boxing out well, rebounding, and THEN the more obvious playmaking with the ball, deflections and shot making.

His ball-hawking gets a little underrated as well. He cuts off passing lanes more than he actual gets steals. His best defensive years have will always come in a system where he doesn't switch. Not just because his switching is a weakness, but because he is devastating as PNR defender. He led the NBA in defensive PNR PPP for several years. He's strong enough to fight through screens and quck enough to go under them and recover in time to contain penetration, as well as quick with his swim moves over the screens.


You add the playoff resiliency that comes with having elite level: Brains, skills and approach, and I really don't think there are almost any one-way players better than(clearly better anyway) than prime Chris Paul.

The two-way monsters: Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Kareem, Hakeem (I intentionally excluded Wilt and Robinson)

And elite two way offensive forces: LeBron, Jordan, Bird

Are the only guys clearly better on any level in my opinion.


I really don't see any other players in history clearly being better across situations, H2H, etc. Same level.

Amazing post man. So glad to see Paul get the love he deserves. I’ve said before I think his 08-18 run is one of the five best ten year stretches in NBA history and I stand by it. Dude is amazing to watch.

I think the move to a more veteran team in the Rockets has really helped him in this phase of his career. He and Blake and DAJ never liked each other. I think Blake was young and clearly sensitive and didn’t want to take direction. But you can see how much the Rockets guys appreciate when he’s always looking out for them (watch the end of the Warriors game where Tucker gets the defensive rebound and someone is coming to poke it out from behind and you hear Paul yelling “PJ! PJ!” Across the court and then running over to take the outlet). In LA he was always accused of “barking” but as you said there’s real substance behind what he says. He and JJ were really close, I think Paul just needs to play with veterans.

I always laugh when I see people critiquing his playoffs performances because I legit think his performance in these past WCFs could only be pulled off by like 3 or 4 guys in NBA history. It’s outrageous how good he was and if healthy he would’ve closed out GSW in 6 (a series that should not have been close based on talent level) and gotten his much deserved ring. It was **** heroic. He was the CLEAR best player on the floor at age 34 despite sharing the court with 4 of the previous five MVPs.

Paul is a GENIUS in every sense of the word and I don’t say that lightly. If I could guarantee health he would be on a very short list of players I’d want to run my team.

I'll put it to you this way outside of Lebron and Jordan he's the best player I've seen in his prime. He's also had significant stretches of time were he was as great as those players were and I don't say this lightly. Paul is the only player I've seen who has an intuitive understanding of both offense and defense along with elite athleticism and the ability to communicate with others which allows him to maximize the ability of everyone on his team. Just having one of those traits is rare but all of them is generational. Now you have to knock him for durability as his body does have a tendency to wear down but all the other criticism of him is unfair.

sp6r=underrated wrote:
I'll put it to you this way outside of Lebron and Jordan he's the best player I've seen in his prime.

I’m going to assume you didn’t watch 70s or 80s ball then, which is fine because most people here either weren’t alive or too young to remember.

But outside of that i don’t see the argument for him being better than recently retired legends like Duncan or KG. Then when you throw in all the debatable recent guys like Curry, KD, Wade, Dirk, Harden etc.

I feel like we can celebrate a player’s greatness without going overboard like that.

Dr Spaceman wrote:Amazing post man. So glad to see Paul get the love he deserves. I’ve said before I think his 08-18 run is one of the five best ten year stretches in NBA history and I stand by it.

This feels like a really “out there” type of opinion to me. For 10 year stretch

No case against:

Lebron, Duncan, KG, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq

Weak case against: Magic, Bird, K Malone, Kobe

Some case, but still not clear cut:

Drob, Wade, KD, Dr J, West, etc list could go on

I generously didn’t include Mj because of the retirement but I probably should’ve anyways since Cp3 was injury prone and missed a ton of time anyway.

No-more-rings wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:
I'll put it to you this way outside of Lebron and Jordan he's the best player I've seen in his prime.

I’m going to assume you didn’t watch 70s or 80s ball then, which is fine because most people here either weren’t alive or too young to remember.

But outside of that i don’t see the argument for him being better than recently retired legends like Duncan or KG. Then when you throw in all the debatable recent guys like Curry, KD, Wade, Dirk, Harden etc.

I feel like we can celebrate a player’s greatness without going overboard like that.

CP3 had a peak that is almost unanimously top 30, and many people have him top 20 [easily]. Saying he is going overboard with a guy who you can debate into top 10/15 all-time peak isn't really overboard.

One of the best posters here and friend Bad Gatorade has made some tremendous posts about CP3's impact. I've tracked impact data since 1997 and he is in the Tier S with LeBron/Garnett in that regard [and since 1997, those 3 are the only players in the top tier, quite comfortably] by many measures within the impact family...

CP3 vs Wade Clutch Stats through 2016 [Missing 2 prime years of CP3], courtesy of

Bad Gatorade wrote:Sources

Wade
RS - 1297 PTS (TS 53.2%)
PO - 227 PTS (TS 52.0%)
After 2009, his RS clutch stats look pathetic - 51.4%. His 2006 season (his peak IMO) has 60.0 regular, 58.3 playoff TS%). Compared to his overall stats (TS 56.2% and 55.2% in RS and PO respectively), his clutch shooting is really poor, although it was quite good early in his career.

CP3
RS - 1160 PTS (58.0%)
PO - 69 (58.3%)
His overall stats - RS 57.8% and PO 58.4%.
His PO scoring arguably isn't as good as his RS scoring thanks to volume, but percentage wise, he's elite, and it's shown that he's one of the premier guys in the league at both scoring and assisting in the clutch through some other stats.

Career wise, against opponents with a top 10 record, Wade has a USG% of 32 and a TS of 0.532, and 31.7/0.585 against bottom 10 opponents. CP3 is at 24.5 and 0.565 for elite opponents, and 0.593 and 23.4 for bottom 10 opponents.

CP3 has a PER of 25.3/27.4 vs top 10 and bottom 10 opponents, Wade is at 22.6/26.8 respectively. Wade's change vs poor opponents and in the clutch is MUCH more pronounced than it is for CP3.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I know Gatorade had some great posts in past CP3 threads which I can't find at the moment, but judging by everything minus those things Robert Kraft lost to Vladamir Putin, CP3 passes the following tests as an all-time great: the eye test, basic stats test, advanced stats test, impact stats test, clutch stats test, and most importantly: he is one of my favorite players.

Colbinii wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:
I'll put it to you this way outside of Lebron and Jordan he's the best player I've seen in his prime.

I’m going to assume you didn’t watch 70s or 80s ball then, which is fine because most people here either weren’t alive or too young to remember.

But outside of that i don’t see the argument for him being better than recently retired legends like Duncan or KG. Then when you throw in all the debatable recent guys like Curry, KD, Wade, Dirk, Harden etc.

I feel like we can celebrate a player’s greatness without going overboard like that.

CP3 had a peak that is almost unanimously top 30, and many people have him top 20 [easily]. Saying he is going overboard with a guy who you can debate into top 10/15 all-time peak isn't really overboard.

One of the best posters here and friend Bad Gatorade has made some tremendous posts about CP3's impact. I've tracked impact data since 1997 and he is in the Tier S with LeBron/Garnett in that regard [and since 1997, those 3 are the only players in the top tier, quite comfortably] by many measures within the impact family...

CP3 vs Wade Clutch Stats through 2016 [Missing 2 prime years of CP3], courtesy of

Bad Gatorade wrote:Sources

Wade
RS - 1297 PTS (TS 53.2%)
PO - 227 PTS (TS 52.0%)
After 2009, his RS clutch stats look pathetic - 51.4%. His 2006 season (his peak IMO) has 60.0 regular, 58.3 playoff TS%). Compared to his overall stats (TS 56.2% and 55.2% in RS and PO respectively), his clutch shooting is really poor, although it was quite good early in his career.

CP3
RS - 1160 PTS (58.0%)
PO - 69 (58.3%)
His overall stats - RS 57.8% and PO 58.4%.
His PO scoring arguably isn't as good as his RS scoring thanks to volume, but percentage wise, he's elite, and it's shown that he's one of the premier guys in the league at both scoring and assisting in the clutch through some other stats.

Career wise, against opponents with a top 10 record, Wade has a USG% of 32 and a TS of 0.532, and 31.7/0.585 against bottom 10 opponents. CP3 is at 24.5 and 0.565 for elite opponents, and 0.593 and 23.4 for bottom 10 opponents.

CP3 has a PER of 25.3/27.4 vs top 10 and bottom 10 opponents, Wade is at 22.6/26.8 respectively. Wade's change vs poor opponents and in the clutch is MUCH more pronounced than it is for CP3.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I know Gatorade had some great posts in past CP3 threads which I can't find at the moment, but judging by everything minus those things Robert Kraft lost to Vladamir Putin, CP3 passes the following tests as an all-time great: the eye test, basic stats test, advanced stats test, impact stats test, clutch stats test, and most importantly: he is one of my favorite players.

Saying his peak is top 10-15(which would be generous) isn’t the same as saying his prime was top 3 for players he’s watched, which since Mj’s name was mentioned i’d have to assume includes everyone from 90s on up. That’s a really huge statement to make. Seems kind of dismissive of a lot of great players too since it was said with such confidence.

As for the other part, I don’t really know what to make of those numbers off the bat. I don’t know what’s considered “clutch time” or how a Cp3 vs Wade in clutch has really anything to do with what i said. I don’t believe clutch numbers mean a lot without context, but I don’t discredit work that was done on that.

He's been the best rockets since the game after he came back from the hamstring injury. HE's been fantastic. Good to see it was the tendinitis and hammy hampering him and not him being washed

No-more-rings wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

I’m going to assume you didn’t watch 70s or 80s ball then, which is fine because most people here either weren’t alive or too young to remember.

But outside of that i don’t see the argument for him being better than recently retired legends like Duncan or KG. Then when you throw in all the debatable recent guys like Curry, KD, Wade, Dirk, Harden etc.

I feel like we can celebrate a player’s greatness without going overboard like that.

CP3 had a peak that is almost unanimously top 30, and many people have him top 20 [easily]. Saying he is going overboard with a guy who you can debate into top 10/15 all-time peak isn't really overboard.

One of the best posters here and friend Bad Gatorade has made some tremendous posts about CP3's impact. I've tracked impact data since 1997 and he is in the Tier S with LeBron/Garnett in that regard [and since 1997, those 3 are the only players in the top tier, quite comfortably] by many measures within the impact family...

CP3 vs Wade Clutch Stats through 2016 [Missing 2 prime years of CP3], courtesy of

Bad Gatorade wrote:Sources

Wade
RS - 1297 PTS (TS 53.2%)
PO - 227 PTS (TS 52.0%)
After 2009, his RS clutch stats look pathetic - 51.4%. His 2006 season (his peak IMO) has 60.0 regular, 58.3 playoff TS%). Compared to his overall stats (TS 56.2% and 55.2% in RS and PO respectively), his clutch shooting is really poor, although it was quite good early in his career.

CP3
RS - 1160 PTS (58.0%)
PO - 69 (58.3%)
His overall stats - RS 57.8% and PO 58.4%.
His PO scoring arguably isn't as good as his RS scoring thanks to volume, but percentage wise, he's elite, and it's shown that he's one of the premier guys in the league at both scoring and assisting in the clutch through some other stats.

Career wise, against opponents with a top 10 record, Wade has a USG% of 32 and a TS of 0.532, and 31.7/0.585 against bottom 10 opponents. CP3 is at 24.5 and 0.565 for elite opponents, and 0.593 and 23.4 for bottom 10 opponents.

CP3 has a PER of 25.3/27.4 vs top 10 and bottom 10 opponents, Wade is at 22.6/26.8 respectively. Wade's change vs poor opponents and in the clutch is MUCH more pronounced than it is for CP3.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I know Gatorade had some great posts in past CP3 threads which I can't find at the moment, but judging by everything minus those things Robert Kraft lost to Vladamir Putin, CP3 passes the following tests as an all-time great: the eye test, basic stats test, advanced stats test, impact stats test, clutch stats test, and most importantly: he is one of my favorite players.

Saying his peak is top 10-15(which would be generous) isn’t the same as saying his prime was top 3 for players he’s watched, which since Mj’s name was mentioned i’d have to assume includes everyone from 90s on up. That’s a really huge statement to make. Seems kind of dismissive of a lot of great players too since it was said with such confidence.

As for the other part, I don’t really know what to make of those numbers off the bat. I don’t know what’s considered “clutch time” or how a Cp3 vs Wade in clutch has really anything to do with what i said. I don’t believe clutch numbers mean a lot without context, but I don’t discredit work that was done on that.

Give CP3 a team like Magic had around him and he is held in the same regard as Magic.

Food for thought, what makes Magic much better than CP3?

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

No-more-rings wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:
I'll put it to you this way outside of Lebron and Jordan he's the best player I've seen in his prime.

I’m going to assume you didn’t watch 70s or 80s ball then, which is fine because most people here either weren’t alive or too young to remember.

But outside of that i don’t see the argument for him being better than recently retired legends like Duncan or KG. Then when you throw in all the debatable recent guys like Curry, KD, Wade, Dirk, Harden etc.

I feel like we can celebrate a player’s greatness without going overboard like that.

In my post I was referring to players I watched rather than player who I've studied through footage from the past. Watching the player live I go back to the early 90s. I would say it was only the early 00s I began to evaluate players critically rather than just as a fan. FWIW, I'm solidly middle aged now .

My two favorite players are Patrick Ewing and Tim Duncan. I'm pulling for Paul now for analytical reasons. His actual personality leaves me very cold and he's never been a player I'm a huge fan of watching for entertainment reasons.

I've watched hundreds of Ewing games and feel comfortable stating Paul brought more to a basketball team than peak Ewing who was marvelous.

I've also watched hundreds of games of Tim Duncan going back to his battles with Sheed in the gold vs powder blue jerseys. I consider him among the candidates for best player in the 2nd Tier (non-GOAT level) players. While I'm far from a KG fan, I have him on the same tier with Duncan but slightly higher right now, I fully appreciate his greatness. I think there is a non- crazy case he was a GOAT candidate. I also think you can have him in the middle of the pack of the 2nd tier.

It isn't at all clear to me that either TD or KG brought more to a team than Paul. Duncan of course got to play his entire career under a man who developed into the GOAT coach. Pop wasn't as good in 98 as now but he was still clearly very bright. KG played with pretty terrible players most of his career but his coaching was actually very solid. Flip Saunders was ahead of his time when it came to offensive schemes. I actually think he did a better job than Brown in Detroit. He figured out how to maximize KG offensively which isn't intuitively easy the way it is to maximize someone such as Jordan or Magic. I could see both players being underutilized, though obviously still great if they had worst coaching.

Duncan/KG are some of the players I would comfortable take over Paul due to the durability issues but it is only durability that makes this a clear choice.

CP is 7-3 against the Warriors the past two years. Four straight wins over them going back to the WCF.

the old cp3 has returned in these past 5 games...that contract is looking good

No-more-rings wrote:

Dr Spaceman wrote:Amazing post man. So glad to see Paul get the love he deserves. I’ve said before I think his 08-18 run is one of the five best ten year stretches in NBA history and I stand by it.

This feels like a really “out there” type of opinion to me. For 10 year stretch

No case against:

Lebron, Duncan, KG, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq

Weak case against: Magic, Bird, K Malone, Kobe

Some case, but still not clear cut:

Drob, Wade, KD, Dr J, West, etc list could go on

I generously didn’t include Mj because of the retirement but I probably should’ve anyways since Cp3 was injury prone and missed a ton of time anyway.

As time passes people have a tendency to gloss over the fluctuations in year-to-year play and paint a player’s whole career with the same brush. From 1996-1999 Shaq for example finished 9th, 9th, 4th and 6th in MVP voting. No one was thinking of him as a future “most dominant ever” candidate during these years and it’s mpossible to make a ten year stretch that doesn’t include these. In his later prime he had many issues with weight, conditioning, injuries etc. And we’ve seen that Paul in his late prime with a talent on Kobe’s level can absolutely lead a team as dominant as that Lakers squad as we did last year.

Wilt’s myriad issues in his career have been well-documented. There’s plenty of good reading material on them on these boards. Wilt had mind-boggling year to year fluctuations in on court impact during his prime and for most of his career was more focused on other interests than performance on the basketball court.

Hakeem has some lost years in there as well especially the early 90s when he was kind of known for being a headcase and had some curious drop offs in defensive efficacy. It’s again a case where a dominant peak overwrites a more inconsistent career.

If it seems like I’m picking nits that’s because I am. It’s what you have to do when comparing the best of the best and I do believe Paul is in that level.

TroubleS0me wrote:the old cp3 has returned in these past 5 games...that contract is looking good

Since his injury return (11g) he’s at 17.7/5.2/8.9 on 45.1/37.8/91.7. That is right in line with last year’s production.

Last 5 games 19.6/5.8/10.6 on 44.1/42.5/95.7.

I’m not gonna lie I was really worried at the beginning of the year. I thought he was kinda done. He’s definitely proved me wrong and it’s kind of crazy for a guy with this health record to basically not miss a beat at his age. He still looks slower IMO than last year but he’s dominating with strength and guile and his explosiveness should improve as he gets back into game shape (as it did for Harden after returning from the hamstring injury).