RealGM

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 12:27 pm**

We move on to the sixth place, the #6 best defensive Point Guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West

These are some candidates, but if you want to vote for somebody that's not in the list and explain why, that's fine, you can do it

Slater Martin (Minneapolis Lakers, Knicks, St.Louis Hawks, 1950/1960
K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Slick Watts (Seattle Supersonics, New Orleans Jazz, Rockets, 1974/79)
Quinn Buckner (Milwaukee Bucks, Boston, Indiana, 1977/1986)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
John Stockton (Utah Jazz, 1985/2003)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Lindsey Hunter (Pistons, Bucks, Lakers, Raptors, Bulls, 1994/2010)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Chris Paul (Clippers, Rockets, 2006-2018+)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Make your pick and explain why.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 12:30 pm**

I'm going with Stockton next. Gritty, smart, tough as nails. Good quicks, underratedly strong.

Edit: Scratch that, I though about it some more. Make it Nate McMillan for me. The guy could cover up to 94 feet no problem. Quick, strong, gritty, get under your skin type.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 12:31 pm**

Spoiler:

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 12:32 pm**

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 1:57 pm**

PistolPeteJR wrote:I'm going with Stockton next. Gritty, smart, tough as nails. Good quicks, underratedly strong.

Edit: Scratch that, I though about it some more. Make it Nate McMillan for me. The guy could cover up to 94 feet no problem. Quick, strong, gritty, get under your skin type.

I vote for Nate Mcmillan too

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 3:35 pm**

penbeast0 wrote:I looked back at the All-D teams and a few things struck me, for what it's worth.
1950s didn't have them but Slater Martin was still starting for winning teams (the STL team that beat the Celtics for example) up to the end of the decade and from everything I've heard, he was the best defensive guard of that era
1960s didn't have them but I can't see Wali Jones over KC Jones or West
1970s, West was voted ahead of Norm Van Lier in his last 3 full years
1980s, Cheeks didn't make a lot early, Dennis Johnson was pretty much a given; then Mo started getting mentioned ahead of DJ for the later part of the 80s although DJ was usually the 2nd team guy.
1990s, Mookie got the 1st team awards ahead of Stockton until the ascension of Payton
2000s were pretty much shooting guards until Paul came into the league, no one else got regular consistent mentions

I would love to see some serious analysis and argument for Slater Martin and KC Jones as I haven't seen them enough to have a clear mental picture apart from their reputation. From reputation, it would be KC, Cheeks, McMillan, Paul, or possibly Mookie.

Statistical evidence for defense is pretty shaky. There is DRAPM which likes Chris Paul, but someone posted that it likes other defenders like Ricky Rubio more. You can look at steal numbers but gamblers are not always good defenders. You can look at how the team did relative to the talent around him . . . probably Mookie's strongest argument and where KC Jones is hurt since the Celtics were pretty much as oustanding defensively with the poor defender Cousy at PG as they were with KC (if there is any evidence the other way, PLEASE post it, I am looking for reasons to support KC soon). If Nate McMillan had played more, he would be my vote here but as he didn't,

Vote: Mookie Blaylock

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 3:51 pm**

Chris Paul

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 5:03 pm**

Vote Mo Cheeks

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 5:03 pm**

I'm going to vote for John Stockton once again, for reasons outlined in previous threads.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 6:11 pm**

If I was considering only per-minute defensive impact, or cumulative defensive impact over his best 3-4 seasons, I could go for Nate McMillan. But as this is about career wholes---and although I'm not taking straight-up cumulative career value---it makes it a little too hard to go with him over some of the other top candidates.

I've been going with Chris Paul the last couple threads, so I'm going to stick with him. Paul is [imo] one of the most intelligent defenders of his entire generation (probably of all-time), has quick hands, and is built like a tank (so he's not easily abused in the post). The only thing working against him is his relatively lacking length. Frankly, if he were a few inches longer, he'd likely be the greatest defensive PG of all-time.

Stockton's also a great candidate; his defensive excellence [as verified by DRAPM, eye-test, and being [handily] the all-time [since '74] leader in steals, and All-D honors] over such a long period is hard to argue against. I think Maurice Cheeks would be a fine candidate, too, and deserves some traction at this point. But I'll stick with CP3.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 6:28 pm**

My vote is for Mookie Blaylock. Next ones I'm looking at are CP3 and Buse; will need to research that more when the time comes.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 8:25 pm**

Going with Mo Cheeks. A technically superior defender who took on all guards and even smaller forwards if needed despite his smaller size. Was quick and rarely out of position with his high BBIQ. Could seamlessly transition from offense to defense.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 8:25 pm**

I vote John Stockton.

The guy forced a lot of turnovers, and played good fundamental defense. Extremely scrappy and high effort.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 8:48 pm**

I'd be curios to see a Poll between John Stockton V CP3 that would be awfully close to me.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 9:48 pm**

Still gotta go with John Stockton. His impact numbers are incredible:

DRAPM by year
2003 (age 40): +1.1
2002 (age 39): +1.6
2001 (age 38): +2.5
2000 (age 37): +3.1
1999 (age 36): +2.3
1998 (age 35): +2.0
1997 (age 34): +1.7

It’s just unprecedented for a guard to have that kind of defensive impact at that age range. Usually by the time you hit 34, you’re lucky if you can even play league average D even if you were a defensive superstar in your prime. These are all post-prime seasons where he averaged between 1.4 and 2.0 steals per game. In his prime, he had 9 seasons where he averaged between 2.2 and 3.2 steals per game. Stockton was a monster on the defensive end of the court and if you account for longevity at all, he has to be voted in here. I think he had a great case to go #1 overall.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 10:59 pm**

CP in his athletic prime was a lock down defender. They were even putting him on wing scorers, that's how respected his defense was.

I just watched a game from a couple years ago where he literally guarded Harden in the 4th quarter and locked him up. Watch his 2014 series against the Warriors, he was guarding Curry AND Thompson.

On top of that, he was leading the league in steals every year. He has done it six times, by far the most in NBA history.

And he has 9 All-NBA defensive selections, tied for most ever for a point guard with Gary Payton.

Posted: **Thu Oct 4, 2018 11:22 pm**

Vote Chris Paul - elite defensive impact stats in the hardest era for offensive PGs, good longevity, team results are there. Both a good man and help defender.

Posted: **Fri Oct 5, 2018 12:44 am**

Samurai wrote:My vote is for Mookie Blaylock. Next ones I'm looking at are CP3 and Buse; will need to research that more when the time comes.

penbeast0 wrote:.

What can you guys tell me about how Don Buse was as a halfcourt man defender?

I've only seen a couple games of him ('75 and '76 Pacers playoff games on YouTube). He looks quick and has good anticipation, and I know he got steals at a wtf?!? rate in his prime; but I don't know much else, and didn't get a strong impression one way or another from the couple games I've seen.

Once Mel Daniels was gone, the defenses he was typically getting all those steals for were not very good (although, to his credit, the one aspect they were good at was opponent's TOV%).

So what are your impressions on his halfcourt D?

Posted: **Fri Oct 5, 2018 1:08 am**

trex_8063 wrote:
Samurai wrote:My vote is for Mookie Blaylock. Next ones I'm looking at are CP3 and Buse; will need to research that more when the time comes.

penbeast0 wrote:.

What can you guys tell me about how Don Buse was as a halfcourt man defender?

I've only seen a couple games of him ('75 and '76 Pacers playoff games on YouTube). He looks quick and has good anticipation, and I know he got steals at a wtf?!? rate in his prime; but I don't know much else, and didn't get a strong impression one way or another from the couple games I've seen.

Once Mel Daniels was gone, the defenses he was typically getting all those steals for were not very good (although, to his credit, the one aspect they were good at was opponent's TOV%).

So what are your impressions on his halfcourt D?

I never saw Buse in the ABA, only in the NBA. He was known as, and I suspect his All-Defensive team selections were based on, a very prolific ball thief due to uncanny anticipation. I remember reading about him back then as having "suffocating defense", but based on my own eye test, I didn't see that. In other words, to me his man defense was very good but it was his help defense was great. While I didn't see him in the ABA, his ABA coach, Slick Leonard, once described him as having outstanding anticipation skills to jump passing lanes but said he wasn't a great individual defender (which I interpret as not being a great man-defender). He had quick hands, but not as quick as West's. He was willing to play his man tight, but he didn't bring the physicality to his defense that a Payton or CP3 does. But his anticipation was outstanding.

Posted: **Fri Oct 5, 2018 1:10 am**

Spot on

RealGM

#6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

#6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #6 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project