#8 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

We move on to the eigth place, the #8 best defensive Point Guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul

These are some candidates, but if you want to vote for somebody that's not in the list and explain why, that's fine, you can do it

Slater Martin (Minneapolis Lakers, Knicks, St.Louis Hawks, 1950/1960
K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Slick Watts (Seattle Supersonics, New Orleans Jazz, Rockets, 1974/79)
Quinn Buckner (Milwaukee Bucks, Boston, Indiana, 1977/1986)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Lindsey Hunter (Pistons, Bucks, Lakers, Raptors, Bulls, 1994/2010)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Make your pick and explain why.

[Gibson22]

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

[Gibson22]

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[penbeast0]

Was torn 3 ways last time between Mookie Blaylock who I felt helped his Hawks teams overachieve defensively; Paul who was just such a smart, tough player, and KC Jones who has the best defensive rep of the 3 but the Celtics were a defensive powerhouse from Russell's day 1 whether they had Cousy (lousy defender even according to Red Auerbach) or KC at the point so was looking for some reason to think KC's rep was justified.

Willing to listen but for now going Mookie Blaylock

[KnickFan33]

McMillan

[Gibson22]

McMillan

Also known as the greatest defender in the history of all sports, I vote for him too.

Anyway, even If I think there will me less partecipation for these last spots, I think it will be interesting now that all the most famous players are gone

[Samurai]

My vote is for Mookie Blaylock.

[iggymcfrack]

Nate McMillan
Really impressive metrics. Arguably has a higher peak than a lot of the guys that have gone already.

[Dr Positivity]

Willing to be convinced but looking at Cheeks and Blaylock for playing more minutes than KC or McMillan

[uberhikari]

What kind of motherflipping irony is this. I've been voting for CP3 in the last 6 theads, then he finally gets voted in and I forgot to vote for him. Jesus christ.

I think this will pretty much come down to Mookie and Nate.

@iggymcfrack has already mentioned Nate's peak, but even if I concede that McMillan's peak was higher than Blaylock's, Blaylock played 51.6% more minutes over his career than McMillan (31,026 vs. 20,462). Furthermore, Blaylock was playing almost all of those minutes as a starter whereas McMillan didn't even start in half the games he played in.

It's going to take a lot for someone to convince me that Nate McMillan's peak was so much higher than Blaylock's that he can overcome a 50% disparity in total minutes played.

So, for now, I vote Mookie Blaylock

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Tim Hardaway and Blaylock are almost the same age. I think McMillan is also about their age but Payton took over the point guard position so the McMillan vs Tim Hardaway match up has less meaning after Payton joins the sonics. I think I will follow this up with Isiah vs Cheeks. Isiah is a few years younger than Cheeks. I think Cheeks is a better defender than Blaylock but I am not sure.

I won't vote for McMillan at this point because his prime minutes per game were not high enough even before Payton came. McMillan's steals per minute increase after Payton takes over the point guard position. I did like McMillan a lot and he may be the better defender but people should not be basing their opinions on the steal stat. The advanced defensive stats are basically fictitious and rely on steals, rebounds and blocks.

Tim Hardaway's numbers vs Blaylock and Tim Hardaway's career numbers
Minutes are the same 35 per game vs Mookie and for career
vs Mookie 2s at 3.7 for 8.2 45%
Career 2s at 4.7 for 10. 47%
vs Mookie shooting 3s at 2.2 for 5.9 37%
Career 3s at 1.8 for 5 35%
vs Mookie fta 3.1
Career fta 3.8
vs Mookie points per game 16.7
Career points per game 17.7
vs Mookie assists per game 9.1
Career assists per game 8.2
vs Mookie turnovers per game 2.7
Career turnovers per game 2.9

Nate McMillan (and Gary Payton) vs Tim Hardaway
Hardaway plays 40 minutes per game. Hardaway scores 22.3 points per game at FG% 46.3. Hardaway has 8.9 Assists and 3.4 Turnovers.
Hardaway's Career FG% is 43%

Looking to see who Tim Hardaway scored 28 points against on April 22 1990 while shooting 56% from the the floor; Sedale Threat was the starter with Dale Ellis at off guard. Threat played 28 minutes and Ellis who could swing to small forward played 42 minutes. Dana Barros played 20 minutes. Barros was a bad defender and was small and must have played point guard. Nate McMillan played 22 minutes. Quintin Dailey played 30 minutes off the bench. Dailey was an off guard. It looks like Nate McMillan was playing small forward that night.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Isiah scores 20.5 points a game in the 1990 playoffs with a EFG 51% and 8.1 assists
Against 32 year old Cheeks with the Knicks Isiah scores 18.4 points per game with a EFG 49% and 8.4 assists.

There are a bunch of games at the end of Cheeks career where Cheeks is only playing 15 minutes per game but a lessor version of Isiah Thomas is still playing 30 plus minutes per game. That throws statistical noise into the head to head stat.

Isiah Thomas scored 19.2 points per game at FG 47% during his regular season career.
In 49 regular season games against Cheeks Isiah scored 18.7 points per game at a FG 44%.
Isiah had 9 assists per game vs Cheeks and 9 Assists per game for his career.

Norm Nixon scores 17 points a game at FG 47% in the 1980 playoffs. Nixon scores 15.5 points per game at 43.5% in the finals vs Cheeks and company.

[pandrade83]

Was torn 3 ways last time between Mookie Blaylock who I felt helped his Hawks teams overachieve defensively; Paul who was just such a smart, tough player, and KC Jones who has the best defensive rep of the 3 but the Celtics were a defensive powerhouse from Russell's day 1 whether they had Cousy (lousy defender even according to Red Auerbach) or KC at the point so was looking for some reason to think KC's rep was justified.

Willing to listen but for now going Mookie Blaylock

In another thread you had asked for some evidence on Jones - in the Top 10 thread I posted Boston's D Ratings from '55-'69 which span all of KC's career. You might be able to glean something from there.

[pandrade83]

I'll take Mookie Blaylock.

-Anchored Top 5 Atlanta defenses in the 90's ('94 & '95) that had no elite rim protector - a big piece of this for me is that the PG in question outkicks the coverage
-Finished Top 10 in DWS 4 X ('94, '95, '97, '99)
-Impact metrics find him extremely valuable: +1 or better in NPI RAPM from '97-'99. '94-'96 APM metrics find him highly impactful as a Top 10 player as well (note: No splits).
-Top 5 in steals 8 X (led league in '97)
-All D from '94-'99 (1st team in '94 & '95)

Passes the eye test:

Watch on YouTube

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I was looking at Head to Head for Nate McMillan vs, Isiah, KJ, Mark Price, Michael Adams, Tim Hardaway.

I looked at low scores and High scores by opposing point guards. Some of both were Nate's at point guard but most of them were not Nate at point guard. Nate did not come out looking all that great.

More than Nate McMillan being good or bad what was noteworthy was how often Nate was not a point guard.
Avery Johnson, Sedale Threat, and Dana Baros got major minutes. john Lucas, and Sam Vincent got minutes.
Then Payton was the starting point guard for the last half of Nate's career.

Gary Payton was getting torched by opposing point guards his rookie year.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Cheeks

I am not sure that Cheeks was better than Blaylock but I don't see a reason to change my opinion. It looks like Blaylock is getting in on this round of voting anyway.

Eventually I will have to consider Van Lier but I have little to go on for VanLier.

In 1971-72 Archibald scores 33 points a game vs Van Lier while scoring 28 points per game overall. Archibald is also more efficient vs Van Lier. Van Lier is 2nd team all defense this year.

In 1972-73 Archibald scores 35 points a game vs Van Lier while scoring 34 points a game overall. Archibald scores more efficiently against Van Lier than against the rest of the league. Archibald has about 12 assists per game vs Van Lier while getting 11.5 vs the rest of the league. Van Lier is 2nd team All defense.

In 1973-74 Archibald gets injury problems. Archibald will never be as good but a worse injury will happen a few years later.
Still in 1973-74 Archibald scores 24 points a game vs Van Lier at FG 51% while scoring 17.6 points a game against the rest of the league at 45%. Van Lier is 1st team all defense this year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Tiny+Archibald&player_id1_select=Tiny+Archibald&player_id1=architi01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Norm+Van+Lier&player_id2_select=Norm+Van+Lier&player_id2=vanlino01&idx=players

[penbeast0]

In another thread you had asked for some evidence on Jones - in the Top 10 thread I posted Boston's D Ratings from '55-'69 which span all of KC's career. You might be able to glean something from there.

Can you link it? I went back and looked and didn't see it.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1749476

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1749398

[pandrade83]

In another thread you had asked for some evidence on Jones - in the Top 10 thread I posted Boston's D Ratings from '55-'69 which span all of KC's career. You might be able to glean something from there.

Can you link it? I went back and looked and didn't see it.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1749476

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1749398

Boston Rel D Rating by Year:

'55 (pre-Russ): +3.2 (bad)
'56 (Pre-Russ): +1.4 (bad)
'57 (Russell plays 2/3 of games): -4.9
'58: -5.2
'59: -5.7 (KC drafted, plays 600 minutes, Cousy plays 2400) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Ramsey
'60: -6.2 (KC plays 1274 minutes, Cousy plays 2600) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Sharman
'61: -7.6 (KC up to 1600) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn, S. Jones, Ramsey
'62: -8.5 (KC up to nearly 2100) Top 5 minutes: Russell, S. Jones, Heinsohn, Sanders, Cousy - given that Sanders made All-D in '69, Sanders joining seems to help
'63: -8.5 (KC Jones plays 1945 minutes; 30 less than COusy) - Russell, S JOnes, Hondo, Sanders, Heinsohn
'64: -10.8 (Cousy retires, KC up to 2500 minutes) - Russell, Hondo, KC Jones, Sam Jones, Sanders - pretty lethal defensive unit
'65: -9.4 - Russell, S. Jones, Sanders, KC Jones, Hondo
'66: -6.6 - Russell, KC Jones, Hondo, S Jones, Sanders
'67: -5.1 - Russell, S Jones, Hondo, KC Jones, Howell - Howell for Sanders seems like an offense for defense swap
'68: -4.4 - KC Is gone - Russell, Hondo, Howell, S. Jones, Sanders
'69: -6.4
'70: Russell no longer there: -0.1

At first blush, I'd say that Sanders is the next most impactful defender after Russell. KC taking over the reigns for Cousy helps - but then there's also the impact of Hondo joining. There's a minor blip when KC leaves; but how much of that is noise vs. other stuff? At minimum, I'd say he was a + defender; how much beyond that is hard to say - and I'm also not sure what being the 3rd/4th? best defender means in this situation.

It's not that I don't think KC is a strong defender; I'm just less hesitant to get behind it.

[trex_8063]

In another thread you had asked for some evidence on Jones - in the Top 10 thread I posted Boston's D Ratings from '55-'69 which span all of KC's career. You might be able to glean something from there.

Can you link it? I went back and looked and didn't see it.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1749476

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1749398

Boston Rel D Rating by Year:

'55 (pre-Russ): +3.2 (bad)
'56 (Pre-Russ): +1.4 (bad)
'57 (Russell plays 2/3 of games): -4.9
'58: -5.2
'59: -5.7 (KC drafted, plays 600 minutes, Cousy plays 2400) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Ramsey
'60: -6.2 (KC plays 1274 minutes, Cousy plays 2600) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Sharman
'61: -7.6 (KC up to 1600) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn, S. Jones, Ramsey
'62: -8.5 (KC up to nearly 2100) Top 5 minutes: Russell, S. Jones, Heinsohn, Sanders, Cousy - given that Sanders made All-D in '69, Sanders joining seems to help
'63: -8.5 (KC Jones plays 1945 minutes; 30 less than COusy) - Russell, S JOnes, Hondo, Sanders, Heinsohn
'64: -10.8 (Cousy retires, KC up to 2500 minutes) - Russell, Hondo, KC Jones, Sam Jones, Sanders - pretty lethal defensive unit
'65: -9.4 - Russell, S. Jones, Sanders, KC Jones, Hondo
'66: -6.6 - Russell, KC Jones, Hondo, S Jones, Sanders
'67: -5.1 - Russell, S Jones, Hondo, KC Jones, Howell - Howell for Sanders seems like an offense for defense swap
'68: -4.4 - KC Is gone - Russell, Hondo, Howell, S. Jones, Sanders
'69: -6.4
'70: Russell no longer there: -0.1

At first blush, I'd say that Sanders is the next most impactful defender after Russell. KC taking over the reigns for Cousy helps - but then there's also the impact of Hondo joining. There's a minor blip when KC leaves; but how much of that is noise vs. other stuff? At minimum, I'd say he was a + defender; how much beyond that is hard to say - and I'm also not sure what being the 3rd/4th? best defender means in this situation.

It's not that I don't think KC is a strong defender; I'm just less hesitant to get behind it.

fwiw, I just took an in-depth look at Boston's defense over these years in another thread here.

[Gibson22]

Can you link it? I went back and looked and didn't see it.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1749476

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1749398

Boston Rel D Rating by Year:

'55 (pre-Russ): +3.2 (bad)
'56 (Pre-Russ): +1.4 (bad)
'57 (Russell plays 2/3 of games): -4.9
'58: -5.2
'59: -5.7 (KC drafted, plays 600 minutes, Cousy plays 2400) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Ramsey
'60: -6.2 (KC plays 1274 minutes, Cousy plays 2600) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Sharman
'61: -7.6 (KC up to 1600) Top 5 minutes: Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn, S. Jones, Ramsey
'62: -8.5 (KC up to nearly 2100) Top 5 minutes: Russell, S. Jones, Heinsohn, Sanders, Cousy - given that Sanders made All-D in '69, Sanders joining seems to help
'63: -8.5 (KC Jones plays 1945 minutes; 30 less than COusy) - Russell, S JOnes, Hondo, Sanders, Heinsohn
'64: -10.8 (Cousy retires, KC up to 2500 minutes) - Russell, Hondo, KC Jones, Sam Jones, Sanders - pretty lethal defensive unit
'65: -9.4 - Russell, S. Jones, Sanders, KC Jones, Hondo
'66: -6.6 - Russell, KC Jones, Hondo, S Jones, Sanders
'67: -5.1 - Russell, S Jones, Hondo, KC Jones, Howell - Howell for Sanders seems like an offense for defense swap
'68: -4.4 - KC Is gone - Russell, Hondo, Howell, S. Jones, Sanders
'69: -6.4
'70: Russell no longer there: -0.1

At first blush, I'd say that Sanders is the next most impactful defender after Russell. KC taking over the reigns for Cousy helps - but then there's also the impact of Hondo joining. There's a minor blip when KC leaves; but how much of that is noise vs. other stuff? At minimum, I'd say he was a + defender; how much beyond that is hard to say - and I'm also not sure what being the 3rd/4th? best defender means in this situation.

It's not that I don't think KC is a strong defender; I'm just less hesitant to get behind it.

fwiw, I just took an in-depth look at Boston's defense over these years in another thread here.

What a team bill russell had