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We move on to the ninth place, the #9 best defensive Point Guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock

These are some candidates, but if you want to vote for somebody that's not in the list and explain why, that's fine, you can do it

Slater Martin (Minneapolis Lakers, Knicks, St.Louis Hawks, 1950/1960
K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Slick Watts (Seattle Supersonics, New Orleans Jazz, Rockets, 1974/79)
Quinn Buckner (Milwaukee Bucks, Boston, Indiana, 1977/1986)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Lindsey Hunter (Pistons, Bucks, Lakers, Raptors, Bulls, 1994/2010)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Make your pick and explain why.

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

I'm going with Nate McMillan here. Resilient, smart and tough, throughout his career as a Sonic.

Everyone credits Payton, and for good reason, for the Sonics' stifling D, but no one looks at Nate. He was a beast on that end.

McMillan

Vote Cheeks

McMillan did not play enough minutes per game. I guess that is because Nate's offense was not good enough. I don't think Nate have a Bobby Jones like limitation regarding how much he could play.

I think Jordan's defense should be judged more based on what he did rather than what he could have done if he did not have to play on offense. The inverse of that is too not judge Nate on what he would have done if he had to play more minutes or do more on offense.

Looking at Nate's head to head match ups with great point Nate did not look that great at slowing down the opposing point guard but when looking more closely at the box scores I see that Nate often wasn't the point guard. It wasn't just Payton playing point guard while Nate played other positions. Following the Dennis Johnson model Nate is a point guard even if he mostly did not play point guard.
Nate's steals go up when he played with Payoton. At first I thought Nates steals went up because he did not have to defend the point guards but then I saw that notdefending the point guards had been happening more than I realized prior to Payton. I am assume that Sedale Threat, Dana Baros, John Lucas, and Avery Johnson would all be defending point guards.

I loved Nate's defense when he was playing but I don't think voting for steal and rebound based stats makes sense.

I lump Cheeks and Blaylock together defensively only I think Cheeks was a bit better than Blaylock and maybe an inch taller than Blaylock.

Mostly just going to repeat comments from last thread:

I'll tentatively go with Mo Cheeks for my pick. Love watching him pressure the ball handler; besides being one of the greatest thieves of all-time, he'd often set opponents out of synch and force them to get into their halfcourt offense with a few seconds less shotclock than they'd like. Small but slippery on screens and fantastic (underrated) athlete, and very good longevity to boot. Has some impressive defensive WOWY (in terms of opponent ppg) during his prime, for what that's worth.

Guys like Nate McMillan and Eric Snow have decent cases, too.

Norm Van Lier just doesn't pop off the screen for me as much as I'd expect (based on reputation); when I watch some of those 70's Bulls games, I generally come away a little more impressed with Jerry Sloan defensively.
K.C. Jones and Ricky Rubio simply don't have enough seasons/minutes to be serious contenders for me (Rubio eventually will).

Quick little highlight reel on Cheeks....

I'm voting Mo Cheeks based on playing more than some of these candidates like McMillan and KC Jones. One of the highest rated defenders of the 80s, obviously the team results were there

Voting for Don Buse. Six-time All Defensive First Team member, led the league twice in steals with 7 top ten finishes.

Voting for Mo Cheeks, considering KC Jones and Nate McMillan as the main competition, wide open to reasoned argument to change my mind. Cheeks has a strong minutes edge so I would need evidence to push me into supporting one of the other two over him.

I obviously vote for Nate Mcmillan

Tossing one in for Norm Van Lier. Played very high minutes more because of his defense than his offense, and played on pretty consistently good defenses.

Voting Nate McMillan

Great on/off metrics throughout his career, Sonics D was better with him than with Payton.

Guys, are the quotes working?

lebron3-14-3 wrote:Guys, are the quotes working?

Yes

I'll take Mo Cheeks over Buse. I can more clearly see his impact on defenses.

I'll be researching between MRR, Buse & Van Lier for the final spot.

pandrade83 wrote:I'll take Mo Cheeks over Buse. I can more clearly see his impact on defenses.

I'll be researching between MRR, Buse & Van Lier for the final spot.

No love for McMillan?

If Cheeks gets this spot, I think the final spot is between McMillan, Snow, and Norm Van Lier for me (McMillan might be the front-runner).
Discussion in previous thread regarding MRR (iirc) was that he gambled a lot and his halfcourt D was frequently nothing to write home about. He's also got <19k total rs minutes to his career, and some potential "team cancer" concerns (potentially related to his drug problems). He's a good inclusion (HM) as a candidate, but I just don't see him as a contender-level candidate.

Van Lier (as indicated above) is certainly a good candidate (imho). Buse might be too, although he [like MRR] suffers from some critiques of being an average man defender.

I can't participate now, as I have busy time lately but i'd like to know why KC Jones isn't even considered. I know that he lacks longevity of the rest, but he was extremely good defender for his whole career. Here is short video that can give you good start on his defensive attributes:

I'm more of a prime guy than a longevity guy, learning about McMillian has been interesting - not sure if there is that big of a difference between him and Gary Payton. I'm going to give McMillian my vote

trex_8063 wrote:

pandrade83 wrote:I'll take Mo Cheeks over Buse. I can more clearly see his impact on defenses.

I'll be researching between MRR, Buse & Van Lier for the final spot.

No love for McMillan?

If Cheeks gets this spot, I think the final spot is between McMillan, Snow, and Norm Van Lier for me (McMillan might be the front-runner).
Discussion in previous thread regarding MRR (iirc) was that he gambled a lot and his halfcourt D was frequently nothing to write home about. He's also got <19k total rs minutes to his career, and some potential "team cancer" concerns (potentially related to his drug problems). He's a good inclusion (HM) as a candidate, but I just don't see him as a contender-level candidate.

Van Lier (as indicated above) is certainly a good candidate (imho). Buse might be too, although he [like MRR] suffers from some critiques of being an average man defender.

I’ll give McMillan a look as well. I’ve heard (and remember) good things but minutes for prime level will be an issue.