RealGM

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:41 pm**

We vote the #2 best defensive shooting guard of all time. Michael Jordan was voted #1
EVERYBODY CAN PARTECIPATE.

Those are the links for the Point Guards.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan

And this is where it started
Idea

And this is where we listed the candidates. I opened a poll where butler, thabo, andre roberson and dan majerle came out as SGs. Iguodala, Bowen, Stepehn Jackson are SFs

Candidates list

What do you think about how this is going so far? Well obviously for the last spots the partecipation dropped (well, I hope that was the reason), but I think this is going well.

Anyway these are the candidates

Bill Sharman (Washington Capitols, 1951/1961, All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Tom Gola (Philadelphia Warriors, San Francisco Warriors, Knicks, 1956/1966 All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Jerry Sloan (Bullets, Bulls, 1966/1976, X6 All-Defensive)

Don Chaney (Lakers, St.Louis Spirits, 1969/1980, X5 All-Defensive)

Lionel Hollins (Blazers, 76ers, San Diego Clippers, Pistons, Rockets, 1976/1985, X2 All-Defensive)

Eddie Johnson (Hawks, Cavs, Supersonics, 1978/1987, X2 All-Defensive)

T.R. Dunn (Portland, Denver, Phoenix, 1978/1991, X3 All-Defensive)

Michael Cooper (Lakers, 1979-1990, X8 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Sidney Moncrief (Bucks, Hawks, 1980-1991, X5 All-Defensive, X2 DPOY)

Fat Lever (Blazers, Nuggets, Mavs, 1983/1994, X1 All-Defensive)

Alvin Robertson (Spurs, Bucks, Pistons, Raptors, 1985/1996 X6 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Joe Dumars (Pistons, 1986/1999, X5 All-Defensive)

Dan Majerle (Suns, Cavs, Heat, 1989/2002, X2 All-Defensive)

John Starks (Warriors, Knicks, Bulls, Jazz, 1989/2002, X1 All-Defensive)

Vernon Maxwell (Spurs, Rockets, 76ers, Magic, Hornets, Kings, SuperSonics, Mavs, 1989/2001)

Mitch Richmond (Warriors, Kings, Wizards, Lakers, 1989/2002)

Jaren Jackson Sr (Nets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers, 76ers, Rockets, Bullets, Spurs, Magic, 1990/2002)

Nick Anderson (Magic, Kings, Grizzlies, 1990/2002)

Bobby Phills (Cavs, Hornets, 1992/2000, X1 All-Defensive)

Stacey Augmon (Hawks, Pistons, Blazers, Hornets, Magic, 1992/2006)

Latrell Sprewell (Warriors, Knicks, Timberwolves, 1993/2005, X1 All-Defensive)

Doug Christie (Lakers, Knicks, Raptors, Kings, Magic, Mavs, Clippers, 1993/2007, X4 All-Defensive)

Aaron Mckie (Blazers, Pistons, 76ers, Lakers, 1995/2007)

Eddie Jones (Lakers, Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies, Mavs, 1995/2008, X3 All-Defensive)

Kobe Bryant (Lakers, 1997/2016, X12 All-Defensive)

Raja Bell (76ers, Mavs, Jazz, Suns, Hornets, Warrios, 2001-2012, X2 All-Defensive)

Manu Ginobili (Spurs, 2003/2018)

Wade (Heat, Bulls, Cavs, 2004/2018, X3 All-Defensive)

Tony Allen (Celtics, Grizzlies, Pelicans, 2005/2018, X6 All-Defensive)

Thabo Sefolosha (Bulls, OKC, Atlanta, Utah, 2007/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Danny Green (Cavs, Spurs, 2010/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Avery Bradley (Celtics, Pistons, Clippers, 2011/2018, X2 All-Defensive)

Jimmy Butler (Bulls, Timberwolves, 2012/2018, X4 All-Defensive)

Klay Thompson (Warriors, 2012/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Victor Oladipo (Orlando, Okc, Indiana, 2014/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Marcus smart (Boston Celtics, 2015/2018)

Andre Roberson (OKC, 2015/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:44 pm**

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:48 pm**

Hi guys

Spoiler:

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:49 pm**

Vote Tony Allen

I was sold by some of the arguments in the other thread. Allen longevity and MP isn't great, but Moncrief longevity isn't the best for Bucks either and has to spend more energy on offense. More statistical data available backing up Allen.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:53 pm**

Vote Sidney Moncrief

Led a bunch of great defenses (1st through 6th in his prime) on what seemed like average defensive skill otherwise, won back-to-back DPOY awards and had sick WOWY numbers.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:56 pm**

Vote please stop spamming me with notifications about this.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:01 pm**

Sticking with my #1 vote: Sid Moncrief

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:03 pm**

From the eye test, I will go with Sidney Moncrief. Sid was the best shutdown man defender I've ever seen, adept at closing out on shooters, strong enough to deal with post up wings, and quick enough to stay with even the jet PGs. He didn't play the passing lanes like some of the other great wings but, despite his offensive responsibilities as the leading scorer on some very good Bucks teams, he was relentless defensively, not coasting or using defense to rest. During his prime, he led a Bucks team with mediocre defensive bigs to the best defense in the league. The Bucks used a center by committee with Bob Lanier or Paul Mokeski as the offensive platoon and Harvey Catchings or Alton Lister as the defensive platoon and yet, in that 5 year stretch, were the best defense twice and the 2nd best twice for Don Nelson, one of the first open advocates of small ball.

Moncrief's healthy prime was short, only about 5 years but he maintained a strong constant level of both offensive prowess and defensive intensity unlike Michael Jordan whose defense was up and down. Moncrief's mentality was different, he stayed at a much more constant level and though Jordan could psych himself up to that level (and was better in the passing lanes), Sid was at peak Jordan level in man coverage all the time where Michael only got there occasionally (though more often in the playoffs which should matter as well).

mdonnelly1989 wrote:
How much greater than Tony Allen you think he was?

I like Moncrief significantly better for man defense which to me is the key to guarding the 2 since that's traditionally been the shooter spot in the league (not necessarily the scorer spot but most often the best shooter). Quicker, longer (his reach was ridiculously long for his height, he played more like a 6-6 type of wing), more chest to chest; Allen is stronger, more physical, and gambles more for steals which can lead to fast breaks or burns.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:04 pm**

nolang1 wrote:Vote please stop spamming me with notifications about this.

ok

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:13 pm**

I don't think it is right to say michael jordan troughout his career defended better than any shooting guard in nba history, in my opinion.
Anyway, giving much value to longevity meaning total minutes more than "percentage" of seasons in which you played great defense, will inevitably favour great players. Like, I'd think about giving the #2 spot in his position to kawhi (and actually I'd think he is top 3 between PGs, Sgs and SFs), and I think he's on another level than lebron, but with him at 15k, and lebron at 44k... Same for bruce bowen, he's not even better than him in my opinion, but it's hard to argue that he's so much better to overcome a -20k minutes deficit, I think that kirilenko is better than him, but he has slightly less minutes than bowen too.. I mean that's fine, I stated that this is about the entire career of these players too, but...

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:16 pm**

Tony Allen.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:20 pm**

It's clearly between tony, moncrief and cooper. After these 3, I will decide between dumars, alvin and jimmy butler

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:30 pm**

Get out of here with these MJ at #1 man. This list is already poisoned.

Sid again.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:45 pm**

It’s nice to see that people here acknowledge Jordan’s defensive impact. Few perimeter players have had such a presence in locking down their matchups, stealing the ball, blocking and picking passes as he did.

Moncrief is my clear second as well.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:49 pm**

bledredwine wrote:It’s nice to see that people here acknowledge Jordan’s defensive impact. Few perimeter players have had such a presence in locking down their matchups, stealing the ball, blocking and picking passes as he did.

Moncrief is my clear second as well.

He certainly was on another level than anybody else (as far as SGs) in terms of defensive tools, but did he really defend better than every single sg ever? There have been a lot of players in this league

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:10 pm**

lebron3-14-3 wrote:
bledredwine wrote:It’s nice to see that people here acknowledge Jordan’s defensive impact. Few perimeter players have had such a presence in locking down their matchups, stealing the ball, blocking and picking passes as he did.

Moncrief is my clear second as well.

He certainly was on another level than anybody else (as far as SGs) in terms of defensive tools, but did he really defend better than every single sg ever? There have been a lot of players in this league

True. For career, I’m not so sure. But for about 4 years, he was sensational. For the later 5 years, awesome but not quite as game-impacting as he had once been. I know that for most of his career, players called him the best defender in the league (KJ, Chuck, Nique, West among others, KJ saying that his defensive presence was what sucked the life out of the other team). That said, I believe that Hakeem was. For an SG though, I don’t think that there’s been anyone who had quite as much of an impact on the trajectory of the game and for the unseen- on his teammate’s defense. You see how often he gave players advice on-court, held them accountable, and even yelled. Imagine what practices were like.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:18 pm**

I read that there have been more than 3100 players in the last 54 years.
I think it's safe to say much more than 2000 from the 80s on.
about 400 should be point guards or shooting guards.

There are 250 players that have played at least 25717 minutes, but you have to consider than players decades ago had way shorter career, so I would say there are hundreds of players that have played a sufficient number of minutes.

6 of the 10 point guards who made the list are top 10 point guards ever, and four of the 6 would be considered top 10 ever even with average defense (everyone except gp and frazier), and 3 of the 4 non all time great PGs are at the last 3 spots, + dennis johnson probably gets recognition because he was a part of those boston teams.

The only all time greats PGs who didn't make the list are notoriously bad (steve nash) or not good defenders (curry, magic) or old (and bad too for what I heard, bob cousy). Isiah thomas wasn't in the list but I feel like he would have gotten some consideration too, if we put him there, and he was an average defender.

Same thing for SGs, best or second best player of all time, also gets the #1 spot.

I get that defense is part of their consideration as all time greats but you know that's not enough of an explaination.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:39 pm**

Anyway, Tony Allen gets my vote, I think that per possession he's the best sg defender of all time, best man defender ever, not nearly as good as cooper as an help defender but the difficulty given by no handchecking (I don't think it's a big thing) and the number of screens (I think that's huge) gives it for me, as I said to me he is a gary payton 2.0.

The best at giving his man trouble, notorious for how well he guarded bigger players and great players, awesome in important games, not small (same height and standing reach as dwade, 1 inch shorter than kobe and mj), he built something with his height, with the defense he played in some playoff games and especially what he did in memphis, he's the face of the teams that you think of when you think about a recent good defensive teams. I mean it's not normal to get your jersey retired when you are a 6'4" shooting guard who's a good athlete but nothing that leaves your mouth open, can't shoot, can't pass, dribbles worse than me. I mean beside from defense all he had was good athleticism and he was a respectable slasher.

By the way I just tought that he is the good of running into screens.

Cooper is next

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:42 pm**

The link to the Jordan thread doesn't work.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:45 pm**

Tony Allen was a lockdown defender in an era where you can't even breath on the offensive player. If he played in an era where there was hand checking and players who have poor offensive games could play more minutes, then he would have been a legitimate force. From what we do know, when he was on the court he was arguably the best defender in the league some years as a 6'4 guard, he has had some ridiculous impact stats and his MPG is high enough to see that it isn't just small sample size/noise. He is largely the personification of Memphis' defense.

He has a perfect combination of height, strength and athleticism for a defensive guard, like I said before, the biggest hurdle to Tony Allen's defense is that his offense is so bad he can't stay on the floor, but that isn't really what we're assessing here.

My vote goes to Tony Allen.

RealGM

#2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

#2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

Re: #2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project