#5 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[Gibson22]

We vote the #5 best defensive shooting guard of all time. We decided to end the thread for the #4 24 hours early, since Cooper was leading 11-0 and there wasn't much discussion about that round
EVERYBODY CAN PARTECIPATE.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper

And this is where it started
Idea

And this is where we listed the candidates. I opened a poll where butler, thabo, andre roberson and dan majerle came out as SGs. Iguodala, Bowen, Stepehn Jackson are SFs

Candidates list



these are the candidates



Bill Sharman (Washington Capitols, 1951/1961, All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Tom Gola (Philadelphia Warriors, San Francisco Warriors, Knicks, 1956/1966 All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Jerry Sloan (Bullets, Bulls, 1966/1976, X6 All-Defensive)

Don Chaney (Celtics, Lakers, St.Louis Spirits, 1969/1980, X5 All-Defensive)

Lionel Hollins (Blazers, 76ers, San Diego Clippers, Pistons, Rockets, 1976/1985, X2 All-Defensive)

Eddie Johnson (Hawks, Cavs, Supersonics, 1978/1987, X2 All-Defensive)

T.R. Dunn (Portland, Denver, Phoenix, 1978/1991, X3 All-Defensive)

Fat Lever (Blazers, Nuggets, Mavs, 1983/1994, X1 All-Defensive)

Alvin Robertson (Spurs, Bucks, Pistons, Raptors, 1985/1996 X6 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Joe Dumars (Pistons, 1986/1999, X5 All-Defensive)

Dan Majerle (Suns, Cavs, Heat, 1989/2002, X2 All-Defensive)

John Starks (Warriors, Knicks, Bulls, Jazz, 1989/2002, X1 All-Defensive)

Vernon Maxwell (Spurs, Rockets, 76ers, Magic, Hornets, Kings, SuperSonics, Mavs, 1989/2001)

Mitch Richmond (Warriors, Kings, Wizards, Lakers, 1989/2002)

Jaren Jackson Sr (Nets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers, 76ers, Rockets, Bullets, Spurs, Magic, 1990/2002)

Nick Anderson (Magic, Kings, Grizzlies, 1990/2002)

Bobby Phills (Cavs, Hornets, 1992/2000, X1 All-Defensive)

Stacey Augmon (Hawks, Pistons, Blazers, Hornets, Magic, 1992/2006)

Latrell Sprewell (Warriors, Knicks, Timberwolves, 1993/2005, X1 All-Defensive)

Doug Christie (Lakers, Knicks, Raptors, Kings, Magic, Mavs, Clippers, 1993/2007, X4 All-Defensive)

Aaron Mckie (Blazers, Pistons, 76ers, Lakers, 1995/2007)

Eddie Jones (Lakers, Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies, Mavs, 1995/2008, X3 All-Defensive)

Kobe Bryant (Lakers, 1997/2016, X12 All-Defensive)

Raja Bell (76ers, Mavs, Jazz, Suns, Hornets, Warrios, 2001-2012, X2 All-Defensive)

Manu Ginobili (Spurs, 2003/2018)

Wade (Heat, Bulls, Cavs, 2004/2018, X3 All-Defensive)

Thabo Sefolosha (Bulls, OKC, Atlanta, Utah, 2007/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Danny Green (Cavs, Spurs, 2010/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Avery Bradley (Celtics, Pistons, Clippers, 2011/2018, X2 All-Defensive)

Jimmy Butler (Bulls, Timberwolves, 2012/2018, X4 All-Defensive)

Klay Thompson (Warriors, 2012/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Victor Oladipo (Orlando, Okc, Indiana, 2014/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Marcus smart (Boston Celtics, 2015/2018)

Andre Roberson (OKC, 2015/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

[Gibson22]

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

[Gibson22]

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[bondom34]

Dude, please stop

[Gibson22]

Dude, please stop

Really sorry, I tought I eliminated your name.

[OdomFan]

I'd like to be taken off this too. My Final vote is Joe Dumars.

[trex_8063]

Alvin Robertson, Joe Dumars, Jerry Sloan, Jimmy Butler, with maybe outside chances for Don Chaney, Eddie Jones, or maybe even Stacey Augmon. Who do I want to go with???...

[LivingLegend]

Please take me off this as well. My vote will forever be Delonte West.

[penbeast0]

Is Butler a better defender than Robeson? Andre looks better when I see him, again, quite possibly because of the lack of offensive responsiblity.

Chaney looked better than Sloan when I watched them; Sloan was more aggressive but not as consistent or quick.

Not ready to vote Alvin Robertson yet despite his having the best resume.

Tentative vote: Don Chaney

[LA Bird]

Vote: Eddie Jones

Solid longevity (33k career minutes) and fairly elite on defense throughout most of his career. His +3.1 DRAPM in JE's 01~15 dataset was second only to Tony Allen and he had consistently great defensive on-offs in the earlier seasons as well.

EJ defensive on-off
1997: -2.9
1998: -7.6
1999: -4.7 (Lakers)
1999: -3.5 (Hornets)
2000: -10.7

His career defensive on-off post 2001 is -4.1 during regular season and -9.4 during playoffs (small sample). In terms of box score stats, Jones led the league in steals once at 2.7 spg and peaked at 1.2 bpg - both very elite marks for a SG. His teams were consistently good on defense wherever he went as well.

Dumars already has a vote but he is far behind Eddie Jones in every single defensive statistical category. Steals, blocks, DWS, DBPM, box DRtg, you name it. Dumars was good at funneling opponents into the interior defense but he wasn't long or strong enough to be a disruptive man defender and he had underwhelming steal/block numbers if we are looking at help defense. Once Laimbeer and Rodman left Detroit, the vaunted Pistons defense plunged to the bottom of the league for 2 straight years with a still in prime Dumars. Eddie Jones has a considerably stronger case as the better defender if only people could look past media awards.

[Gibson22]

[quote="penbeast0"Is Butler a better defender than Robeson? Andre looks better when I see him, again, quite possibly because of the lack of offensive responsiblity.

Chaney looked better than Sloan when I watched them; Sloan was more aggressive but not as consistent or quick.

Not ready to vote Alvin Robertson yet despite his having the best resume.

Tentative vote: Don Chaney [/quote]

No he is not, but in my opinion roberson would have a case for #1 if he had like 20k minutes more. Jimmy b has 9k more minutes than him

[Samurai]

My vote is for Jerry Sloan. For whatever reason, he is more remembered by fans as a coach than as a player, which I think is a serious disservice to him. He was a 4-time All Defensive first team member and a 2-time second team member, but this vote is more based on the eye test than accolades or stats. Probably the roughest and toughest man defender on this list of candidates, including those already named. He was such a rugged defender that opposing players nicknamed him "the Butcher". One of the best ever at being willing to sacrifice his body to take the charge for an offensive foul; he was so good at it that even the ever-cool Walt Frazier would get so frustrated by Sloan that Clyde once admitted that he focused too much on trying to beat and damage Sloan taking those charges that it would take him out of the flow of the game. And Billy Cunningham and Rick Barry, both known for being more emotional than Clyde, admitted that Sloan's constant grabbing, slapping and knack for drawing offensive fouls would get under their skin to the point that it did distract them at times.

Some have criticized Sloan for not being as quick as other SG's on defense. While Sloan would admit that he wasn't the fastest player in the league, he made up for his lack of sheer foot speed by out-hustling everyone else; Sloan would lead the league in floor burns as he was constantly diving for loose balls.

Sloan is one of only 4 players thus far to have his number retired by the Bulls; the others are Love, Pippen and Jordan. That's a pretty decent group to be a part of.

[pandrade83]

Some of the top candidates or at least those getting votes:


Sloan - passes the eye test for me to a greater degree than anyone left - on the flipside, Chicago doesn't always produce a robust D rating despite other strong defenders around him like Chet Walker & Van Lier - they're merely good, '70 Bulls go 27-26 with, 12-14 without

Robertson - has the gaudy steal figures & the DPOY to go with it, '89 Spurs go 19-46 with, 2-15 without (WHAT?!), the Bucks don't really improve defensively after getting him but Robertson helps the Bucks & Spurs have the best TOV rate, so perhaps the blame is moreso on his teammates than him.

Jones - strong DRPM numbers - ranging from 0.5 to the 2.5 range during his prime, teams were consistently strong defensively, the Lakers fell off a cliff immediately after trading him defensively & posted robust box score block/steals figures.

Dumars - hard no - didn't help with rebounding at all, I'm wiling to believe that the defensive fall in his metrics was due to taking a larger offensive burden, but then it makes me question his overall impact.

Penbeast loves Chaney based on the eye test - I'm not familiar enough with his game, but the metrics we have aren't screaming high impact (which doesn't mean that he didn't).

My vote is Eddie Jones because I'm the most confident in his impact - I'll probably support Robertson once he's in.

[mdonnelly1989]

Bruce Bowen

[Gibson22]

Bruce Bowen

SF- not in the list

[mdonnelly1989]

Bruce Bowen

SF- not in the list

Ohh well in that case.


Joe Dumars

[trex_8063]

Well, I'm gonna take a stand with my gut feeling, and I'll explain why my gut is leaning this way....

Sloan passes the eye-test for me; got to be just about the most physical perimeter defender of his generation from the limited amount I've seen, and hustles like mad. Might be one of the original flop-artists too, from what I've seen, though from what some of our resident "old timers" have said, he was frequently successful in drawing the charge call.

The Bulls were a brand new expansion team in Sloan's rookie season, and he really didn't get anything by way of relevant defensive help for the first few seasons (Bob Love would arrive by Sloan's FOURTH season in Chicago, Tom Boerwinkle was around by his third season [suppose that helps on the defensive glass]). And yet their worst defensive season in those four years was +0.7 rDRTG; their best was a -1.5 rDRTG (avg of -0.35 rDRTG over those four seasons).
When Chet Walker arrived in '71 they again managed a -1.5 rDRTG (still no real defensive anchor in the middle). When Norm Van Lier and a relevant shot-blocker (in rookie Clifford Ray) arrived in '72, they improved to a -3.6 rDRTG (3rd in the league, iirc). They would best that once in '74 (-4.1 rDRTG, 1st in league) and come close in '75 (-3.3, 2nd in league) with an aging Nate Thurmond replacing Clifford Ray.
In '76, Jerry Sloan would miss most of the season with injury (and subsequently retire), and they traded away aging Nate Thurmond early in the year; also Chet Walker has retired, fwiw. Still have Norm Van Lier, Bob Love, and Tom Boerwinkle as mainstays for the team, but the rDRTG falls to -0.3.
In '77 they again still have NVL, Love, and Boerwinkle, but have now added a prime Artis Gilmore; rDRTG still falls short of the best Jerry Sloan years at just -2.1. The following year it would plummet to +2.0 despite still having Gilmore and NVL filling big minutes.

Where data is limited, I feel one must give some consideration to All-D honors; and has been noted previously Sloan was SIX times on the All-Defensive team (4x 1st).
And Elgee's WOWYR gives Sloan a very respectable +3.7 career rating, despite the fact that he wasn't a good offensive player: career 14.0 ppg/2.5 apg, frequently slightly BELOW league avg TS%; career 13.2 PER [peaked at 14.9], .092 WS/48 [peaked at .130]. It's safe to assume almost any value/impact measured there is coming on the defensive end.

Vote: Jerry Sloan

[Luigi]

Alvin Robertson, then Jerry Sloan. But first, I vote Alvin Robertson.

[Dr Positivity]

Really hard to make this call but my attempt

Sloan - seemingly one of the best motors ever for his position, just A+ hustle/physicality/intensity guy, but not as talented as someone like Eddie Jones. I can see writers in his time potentially overrating him for effort more than results. Looking like you're good at playing perimeter defense is not always the same as being the best at it... see Avery Bradley

Jones - probably the most talented on defense of these candidates. Some statistical backup for his defense. Quality longevity. Never makes 1st team all-defense

Robertson - strong accolades and crazy steal numbers. Gambled the most of these candidates

Dumars - I don't see any major flaws... but isn't the clear best at something like the other three. But he did have a great defense around him and got to shine defending MJ a bit... not that defending MJ is a bad metric

Chaney - To be honest I know very little about this player

Vote Eddie Jones - he has the best data behind him and the talent

[HeartBreakKid]

Please remove me from the notification list.