Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project

[Gibson22]

So, I planned to open this thread like 2-3 days ago, but unfortunately I wasn't able to. As usual, before jumping to the thread for the #1 position, we have this thread for the candidates listing. So, who should be in the list?

Those are the guys that trex suggested me

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Lebron James
Shane Battier
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
Andre Iguodala
Metta World Peace
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirilenko
Derrick McKey
Joe Caldwell
Jamaal Wilkes
Robert Covington
Bob Dandridge
Luol Deng
Tom Sanders
Gerald Wallace
Rodney McCray

[Gibson22]

The most important thing is to immediately state what are the possible candidates who we are not sure if they are sf or pf

[Gibson22]

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[Dr Positivity]

Kirilenko is tough because he played more years at SF but his best play at PF and should have been there the whole time

If AK is listed at SF Marion has to be too, he also played the majority of his years there between early Suns and his whole post Suns career for the most part

Paul George is an omission. Paul Pressey was at SF not SG right? Julius Erving? Stephen Jackson another longlist candidate discussed in previous thread

[PistolPeteJR]

Where is Dave DeBusschere?

[trex_8063]

I'm more comfortable with Kirilenko at SF. bbref's play-by-play has him at SF 72% of the time (split during his prime years is pretty close to that too).

One other guy I wasn't totally sure on was Dave DeBusschere. I didn't include him in my suggestions because I feel he spent most of his time as a PF, and particularly during his years in NY (which I think he's most remembered for): the starting backcourt was Frazier and either Barnett or Monroe, Bill Bradley was the SF (Reed was at C); Dave was the PF.

[Dr Positivity]

I always viewed DeBusschere as the PF.

[henshao]

Dennis Rodman spent his defensive prime at small forward IMO

[SHAQ32]

Rick Fox was guarding the opposing team's best swing the large majority Kobe was making all-defensive teams. His advanced metrics are solid so I think he could be a candidate here.

[HeartBreakKid]

Rodman needs to be listed here.

[iggymcfrack]

I definitely think of Rodman as more of a 4. Wikipedia and LandOfBasketball both list his position simply as power forward. Obviously, he could guard smaller guys if that’s what you wanted him to do, but he could also bang inside just as well and when you have the GOAT rebounder, don’t you want him as close to the basket as possible?

[Gibson22]

I have rodman clearly as a 4

[penbeast0]

I also find both Rodman and Debuscherre pretty solidly in the PF camp. Bobby Jones too for that matter. I think Satch Sanders played mainly PF too though I could be wrong. Kirilenko and Marion I think of as SFs.

Willie Wise was considered the top defensive SF in the ABA from what I remember.

[trex_8063]

I think Satch Sanders played mainly PF too though I could be wrong.

I tend to think of him more as a SF. Looking at the line-ups, he certainly split his time between the positions; may have even been in the neighborhood of 50% at PF.

Early career ('61-'66), those Celtic rosters looked like:
PG - Cousy/KC Jones/(Siegfried)
SG - Sharman/S.Jones/Ramsey/(Havlicek)
SF - Havlicek/Loscutoff/Naulls/Nelson
PF - Heinsohn/Gene Conley/Naulls/(Nelson)
C - Russell/Lovellette/Counts

Hard to say where Sanders fits into the above collage of players; there's obviously got to be a split between the two positions (there aren't enough minutes at one or the other).

'67-'69
PG - KC Jones/Siegfried/Bryant
SG - S.Jones/Siegfried/Havlicek/etc
SF - Havlicek/Nelson
PF - Howell/Nelson
C - Russell/Embry

^^^Again hard to say where Sanders is likely spending most of his time in this grouping.


In '70 the top 9 in playing time [in order] were:
John Havlicek (SG/SF)
Tom Sanders (???)
Don Nelson (SF/(PF))
Larry Siegfried ((PG)/SG)
Bailey Howell (PF)
Hank Finkel (C)
Em Bryant (PG)
Jo Jo White (PG)
Steve Kuberski (PF)

^^^Here it certainly seems like there's more available time at the SF; considering Satch averaged >28 mpg that year, it's a near certainty the majority of those must have been at SF.

'71 barely warrants mentioning because Satch missed most of the year, and his final season ('73) he didn't really play relevant minutes. In '72, it seems like slightly more minutes would have been available at SF.


And fwiw, bbref designates him SF in 10 of his 13 seasons.

[Owly]

I definitely think of Rodman as more of a 4. Wikipedia and LandOfBasketball both list his position simply as power forward. Obviously, he could guard smaller guys if that’s what you wanted him to do, but he could also bang inside just as well and when you have the GOAT rebounder, don’t you want him as close to the basket as possible?

It's not a matter of what people "want" from him, or what he "could [do] ... if that's what you wanted him to do".

Dennis Rodman came into the league as a small forward. Through to 1991 (when he started alongside Bill Laimbeer and James Edwards) that was probably his primary position (with Salley and to a lesser extent Bedford claiming a chunk of the "big" minutes). That span includes over a third of his career minutes, and both his DPoY awards.

Things that call Dennis Rodman only a power forward are either: (a) keen to simplify and put him at only position or (b) wrong.

If you want to cover where Rodman played most of his minutes then the answer would be power forward. The same if you want the position he's most famous as/associated with. But the idea (and I don't know the intent here, but it seemed a fairly casual dismissal) that it's simple to put him at PF, as though SF is weird or ahistorical, doesn't seem to stand up, particularly as the criteria for defining position hasn't been specific. For someone who thinks it's about the position they defended best, on the anecdotal/awards side ... that's SF for Rodman (and all the more so if the person considers rebounding a distinct aspect from offense or defense).

I'd put him as PF otoh, but I'd be open to either and if it's based on where he defended better, per the above, there's obvious anecdotal evidence to put him here, so I don't think it's open and shut.


DeBusschere was a PF for most of his career and for the years where he was most obviously impactful so I'd be inclined to put him there. Kirilenko, Marion and Bobby Jones I think of as just forwards ... (lean maybe SF, where historically the 4 has been for bangers and these guys are more skillful and athletic - but then Odom fits that, and I'm more comfortable calling him a 4, maybe because he's taller?). Sanders is kind of the same - it's up in the air because Havlicek played 2 positions and is more identified as a 3, which might push him to 4, but they could both be getting the majority of their minutes at the 3 position.

Posey worth mentioning for the longlist (impact less than I thought - though more an impact player in the playoffs)? Bob Love got some recognition as a defender, though probably more a longlist mention than a contender. E.C. Coleman had a reputation as a defensive specialist and Rick Barry said Coleman defended him best, though again probably not a contender. Hanzlik was pushed to here from the SG discussion.

George Lynch is a RAPM standout. Jerome Kersey is, too, in a small sample (odd, as his defensive rep in his prime was more middling and worse than his boxscore).

Will try to check up who the Barry handbooks liked when I get time, maybe dig deeper rather than going mostly off the top of my head.

[trex_8063]

George Lynch and James Posey would be nice inclusions.

[penbeast0]

I think Satch Sanders played mainly PF too though I could be wrong.

I tend to think of him more as a SF. Looking at the line-ups, he certainly split his time between the positions; may have even been in the neighborhood of 50% at PF.

Early career ('61-'66), those Celtic rosters looked like:
PG - Cousy/KC Jones/(Siegfried)
SG - Sharman/S.Jones/Ramsey/(Havlicek)
SF - Havlicek/Loscutoff/Naulls/Nelson
PF - Heinsohn/Gene Conley/Naulls/(Nelson)
C - Russell/Lovellette/Counts

Hard to say where Sanders fits into the above collage of players; there's obviously got to be a split between the two positions (there aren't enough minutes at one or the other).

'67-'69
PG - KC Jones/Siegfried/Bryant
SG - S.Jones/Siegfried/Havlicek/etc
SF - Havlicek/Nelson
PF - Howell/Nelson
C - Russell/Embry

^^^Again hard to say where Sanders is likely spending most of his time in this grouping.


In '70 the top 9 in playing time [in order] were:
John Havlicek (SG/SF)
Tom Sanders (???)
Don Nelson (SF/(PF))
Larry Siegfried ((PG)/SG)
Bailey Howell (PF)
Hank Finkel (C)
Em Bryant (PG)
Jo Jo White (PG)
Steve Kuberski (PF)

^^^Here it certainly seems like there's more available time at the SF; considering Satch averaged >28 mpg that year, it's a near certainty the majority of those must have been at SF.

'71 barely warrants mentioning because Satch missed most of the year, and his final season ('73) he didn't really play relevant minutes. In '72, it seems like slightly more minutes would have been available at SF.


And fwiw, bbref designates him SF in 10 of his 13 seasons.

SF it is then. AS I said, far from sure.

[70sFan]

How about Gus Johnson? He played some years with Bailey Howell (clear 4) but then he also played next to Wes Unseld at 4. What do you think?

[No-more-rings]

I think Pippen is clearly first when weighing longevity properly.

[cecilthesheep]

Where is Dave DeBusschere?

DeBusschere should be at PF.