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Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:43 am
by Gibson22
Rules of the project: 1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it. The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players listed as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.
2) For the players whose role is unclear, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.
3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.
If you need any other claryification, just tell me.
Thank you guys for your partecipation Top
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:44 am
by Luigi
Bowen and Artest are next up for me, then Kirilenko.
I'm going with Bowen. He only gets it because he was a specialist. But that's what this thread is about.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:28 am
by Sublime187
I think Lebron peaked highest of all SFs remaining. Jordan was given the nod for SGs even though his play was not as consistent as others so Lebron should get the nod here as he peaked the highest IMO.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:31 am
by Samurai
Voting for Bruce Bowen.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:38 am
by Dr Positivity
Vote Ron Artest. He has the best defensive +/- data supporting him I believe, has a DPOY, has the ideal physical tools for defense, and his longevity is pretty solid, even up through Rockets and Lakers title year his DRAPM continues to be excellent
I believe Bowen is the GOAT man to man defender for SFs but I don't know if his impact extends to help defense as much as some candidates. He is not a player who anchors a defense. He is just a genius at taking one player and eliminating his airspace for the whole game. Possibly makes him more valuable in the playoffs than regular season though
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:57 am
by Red Shoelace
Can you stop quoting me.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:32 am
by bledredwine
This is between Kawhi and Artest for me. I'll go with Ron Artest.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:00 am
by Cappy_Smurf
Red Shoelace wrote:Can you stop quoting me.
Yes.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:09 am
by No-more-rings
Good to see Artest getting votes. I honestly think people forget how great he was on defense. I think more people remember Metta more than Artest. Though he was still good then it wasn’t really his prime and certainly not peak.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:53 am
by mdonnelly1989
#1. Scottie Pippen #2. Ron Artest #3. Kawhi #4. Bruce Bowen
This is how I expect this to play out and how I think my next vote is...
Ron Artest...
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:28 am
by cecilthesheep
Ron Artest, for basically the same reasons as Dr Positivity. Kawhi will be my next vote, but for now he still doesn't have the longevity of Artest.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:21 am
by iggymcfrack
Gotta go with Metta World Peace. (Figure the man deserves to be called by his current name even if that’s not what he was using during this peak years.) His run from 2006-2011 is pretty hard to **** with. DRAPM between 2.3 and 3.5 every year which matched reputation and eye test at the time.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:30 pm
by Morb
1) Kawhi 2) Prince 3) Kirilenko
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:12 pm
by pandrade83
Artest followed by Lebron, Bowen, Hondo is how I'm looking at this.
Artest for now for reasons others have mentioned.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:30 pm
by trex_8063
These next several spots are pretty wide open to me. I’m going to break the ice on Shane Battier and make him my pick.
I’ve started looking at minute-weighted defensive value over replacement level as measured by RAPM (+/- some years of Estimated Impact defensive split and/or APM estimated defensive split for Pippen) for some SF’s, as I had previously for so many SG’s. Replacement level set at -0.75, and pro-rated ‘99 and ‘12 to full-length seasons.
So far I’ve only done Bowen, Pippen, Lebron, Kawhi, and Shane Battier, but I’ll share the results; take them for whatever they’re worth to you, but combined with my eye-test, they rate Battier super-competitive among the best (fwiw, I’ve seen a different source that puts Bron’s DRAPM slightly lower; these are from JE’s sheets where ever possible): Battier has the best average season, best 5-year avg, best single-season peak, and is third behind only Pippen and Bron in cumulative career (Pippen already voted in). Food for thought, anyway.....
CAREER Defensive Value Over Replacement Lebron James - 81,906.4 Scottie Pippen - 81,078.8 Shane Battier - 73,682.5 Bruce Bowen - 51,345.8 Kawhi Leonard - 29,493.5
Average Defensive Value Over Replacement PER SEASON Shane Battier - 5,667.9 Lebron James - 5,460.4 Scottie Pippen - 4,769.3 Bruce Bowen - 4,278.8 Kawhi Leonard - 4,213.4
Best 5-years Averaged Shane Battier - 10,586.0 Lebron James - 9,417.8 Scottie Pippen - 8,030.2 Bruce Bowen - 6,280.9 Kawhi Leonard - 6,031.8
Best Single-Season VOP Shane Battier - 14,053.05 Lebron James - 10,841.7 Kawhi Leonard - 10,805.2 Scottie Pippen - 9,162.6 Bruce Bowen - 7,711.2
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:37 pm
by bledredwine
I’m actually surprised by the Artest respect as well. Especially when I saw Metta World Peace written, I figured that 75% of posters wouldn’t have really watched Artest. But it seems that all of the knowledgeable posters post in these all-time threads instead of the “Who’s better, Demarcus Cousins or Wilt Chaimberlain” threads, which makes sense. Nice.
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:10 pm
by trex_8063
Have run the VOP numbers for Ron Artest, Andrei Kirilenko, and Andre Iguodala; added them into the figures of others I’d presented previously. I must say it’s making a compelling case for Iggy. Will have to look at some other stuff and maybe find a game of prime Iggy (in Philly) to watch to refresh my memory of him there; may end up switching my support from Battier. Artest also looks pretty good by these studies. Will try to add in Havlicek (using Estimated Impact defensive splits) later. I’ll share the updated results for now.......
CAREER Defensive Value Over Replacement Andre Iguodala - 94,380.5 Ron Artest - 82,564.4 Lebron James - 81,906.4 Scottie Pippen - 81,078.8 Shane Battier - 73,682.5 Bruce Bowen - 51,345.8 Andrei Kirilenko - 40,306.35 Kawhi Leonard - 29,493.5
Average Defensive Value Over Replacement PER SEASON Andre Iguodala - 6,741.5 Shane Battier - 5,667.9 Lebron James - 5,460.4 Ron Artest - 4,856.7 Scottie Pippen - 4,769.3 Bruce Bowen - 4,278.8 Kawhi Leonard - 4,213.4 Andrei Kirilenko - 3,100.5
Best 5-years Averaged Shane Battier - 10,586.0 Andre Iguodala - 9,456.6 Lebron James - 9,417.8 Ron Artest - 9,160.5 Scottie Pippen - 8,030.2 Bruce Bowen - 6,280.9 Kawhi Leonard - 6,031.8 Andrei Kirilenko - 5,612.9
Best Single-Season VOP Shane Battier - 14,053.05 Andre Iguodala - 11,810.75 Lebron James - 10,841.7 Kawhi Leonard - 10,805.2 Ron Artest - 10,175.8 Scottie Pippen - 9,162.6 Bruce Bowen - 7,711.2 Andrei Kirilenko - 6,639.95
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:50 am
by SHAQ32
trex_8063 wrote:...
Good post
Was going Shane Battier as well
Re: #2 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:23 pm
by kendogg
When the stats are close I go with the eye test. Ron Artest is my pick for the guy who can absolutely shut someone down the hardest. Battier is more of a team defender though he can lock down if the opponent isn't too quick. Iguodala might be the most athletic defender here outside of LBJ still on the board, and the one guy who might be as good as Artest at straight up lock down. LBJ himself more of a team defender like Battier. Kawhi doesn't have the minutes and Bowen is a dirty little bitch with less talent than he gets credit for.
Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking team defenders. They are very valuable. But lockdown defenders are IMO more valuable, and very rarely is a top tier lockdown defender not also a good team defender.