Would prime Michael Finley be a top 15 player today?

[magicman1978]

Finley would be a better fit for today's NBA. His prime coincided with the worst conditions for a player like him. I don't think he'd be top 15, but top 20-30 is probably right.

[pandrade83]

1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Durant
4. Giannis
5. Embiid
6. Kawih Leonard
7. Anthony Davis
8. James Harden
9. CP3
10. Klay Thompson
11. Rudy Gobert
12. Ben Simmons
13. Jimmy
14. Blake Griffin
15. Westbrook
16. Paul George
17. Kyrie Irving
18. Cousins
19. KAT
20. Mitchell
21. Jokic
22. Dame
23. Draymond
24. Tobias
25. Conley
26. Gasol
27. Fox
28. Derozan
29. Doncic
30. Lowry
31. Horford
32. Tatum
33. Oladipo
34. Kemba
35. Richardson
36. Beal
37. Holiday

Above list not in order necessarily. This All-Star talk is not realistic (at least not without alternates). He's inside the Top 40 for me - certainly an above average high impact player. But All-Star level? I'm not even close to being there.

[ronnymac2]

Derozan level. Not stylistically, but in terms of level of player. Very good player, but certainly not top-15. He's be a low-turnover volume scorer with better shooting and defense than Derozan but less creation and ball-handling.

[iggymcfrack]

I was young and a big Mavs fan during his prime so I kinda remember him as being better than he was, but he never had one year top 20 in RAPM, was consistently a below average defender, and not very efficient offensively. I think it’s pretty questionable whether he was ever a Top 15 player in his own day and he certainly wouldn’t be now.

[clyde21]

I was young and a big Mavs fan during his prime so I kinda remember him as being better than he was, but he never had one year top 20 in RAPM, was consistently a below average defender, and not very efficient offensively. I think it’s pretty questionable whether he was ever a Top 15 player in his own day and he certainly wouldn’t be now.

I don't know. I feel like 53% TS is decently efficient for his era. To put that in perspective, Thompson has a 54% TS for his career in this era, and I don't think anyone would accuse him being inefficient. Also shot 37.5% from 3 for his career, which is outstanding.

[Texas Chuck]

Derozan level. Not stylistically, but in terms of level of player. Very good player, but certainly not top-15. He's be a low-turnover volume scorer with better shooting and defense than Derozan but less creation and ball-handling.

This part confuses me. Are you talking about creating his own shots? If so, then definitely. If you mean creating for others, I don't see a meaningful edge for Derozan. Obviously Finley dropped off in this regard when Nash and Dirk took primacy, but he showed prior to that he could create for others.

I'd also have Derozan a bit better than Finley I think.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Top 25-30 sounds about right

[ronnymac2]

Derozan level. Not stylistically, but in terms of level of player. Very good player, but certainly not top-15. He's be a low-turnover volume scorer with better shooting and defense than Derozan but less creation and ball-handling.

This part confuses me. Are you talking about creating his own shots? If so, then definitely. If you mean creating for others, I don't see a meaningful edge for Derozan. Obviously Finley dropped off in this regard when Nash and Dirk took primacy, but he showed prior to that he could create for others.

I'd also have Derozan a bit better than Finley I think.

Creating shots for himself, ball-handling which allows for attacking the defense - that type of creation. Derozan's USG% is a level above Finley's and has been for some time.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Finlay is basically similar to Jimmy Butler but not quite as good defensively. Great all around guard that can drive, shoot, pass, rebound and defend and had a great motor and stamina. No real weaknesses in his game. He's around 15 but maybe doesn't make the cut. Back in his prime of say '00 the league hit a bit of a downswing post-Jordan era in terms of superstar talent depth so he might have made the cut then.

Did you ever watch Finley play? Where do people get this stuff from?

Finley was average to bad defensively. He has a career -.7 DBPM. He only had one season, at 35, where his DBPM wasn't negative. Butler has zero seasons with a negative DBPM, and had a 2.4 one year. So saying he's "not quite as good defensively," is like saying Eric Bledsoe is "not quite as good a shooter as Klay Thompson."

And no, he couldn't drive. The biggest issue with Finley offensively was he had zero handle. He mostly had to rely on post-up and ISO jumpers. There's a reason that despite playing massive minutes, he only got to the FT line over 5 times once in his career, and averaged a meager 2.7 FTAs for his career. Butler, on the other hand, averages almost 6 FTA, and has six straight years of FTAs higher than Finley's career high...

Finley was a highly inefficient scorer, as he couldn't get to the FT line, and wasn't a great 3PT shooter most of his career. His career TS% is 52.7. His HIGH during his Dallas tenure was 54%. Butler's career TS% is 57.2.

So in conclusion...no, Finley was nothing like Butler. Butler is an elite defender, Finley was a bad defender. Butler is great at getting to the line, Finley was terrible at it. Butler is a highly efficient scorer, Finley was an inefficient scorer.

Yes, Finley had lots of weaknesses...such as defense, handles, getting to the line, and scoring efficiency.

Finley never ONCE cracked a 20 PER. Top 50 is about right. Maybe generous.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

I was young and a big Mavs fan during his prime so I kinda remember him as being better than he was, but he never had one year top 20 in RAPM, was consistently a below average defender, and not very efficient offensively. I think it’s pretty questionable whether he was ever a Top 15 player in his own day and he certainly wouldn’t be now.

I don't know. I feel like 53% TS is decently efficient for his era. To put that in perspective, Thompson has a 54% TS for his career in this era, and I don't think anyone would accuse him being inefficient. Also shot 37.5% from 3 for his career, which is outstanding.

No, it's not. And in what world is 37.5% from three "outstanding?" Good, sure, but outstanding?

It's absolutely farcical to ask if a guy who never cracked a 20 PER, has a career TS% of 53, and a career BPM of only 1, would be a top 15 player today.

[iggymcfrack]

I was young and a big Mavs fan during his prime so I kinda remember him as being better than he was, but he never had one year top 20 in RAPM, was consistently a below average defender, and not very efficient offensively. I think it’s pretty questionable whether he was ever a Top 15 player in his own day and he certainly wouldn’t be now.

I don't know. I feel like 53% TS is decently efficient for his era. To put that in perspective, Thompson has a 54% TS for his career in this era, and I don't think anyone would accuse him being inefficient. Also shot 37.5% from 3 for his career, which is outstanding.

Klay Thompson has a career TS% of .574 which goes up to .591 if you take out his first 3 seasons.
No idea where you got 54% unless you’re talking about a different Thompson.

Finley had a career TS% of .527 and he never shot over .522 in any of his 4 peak seasons. Carmelo Anthony had 13 seasons in a row more efficient than any of Finley’s 4 peak seasons.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

I was young and a big Mavs fan during his prime so I kinda remember him as being better than he was, but he never had one year top 20 in RAPM, was consistently a below average defender, and not very efficient offensively. I think it’s pretty questionable whether he was ever a Top 15 player in his own day and he certainly wouldn’t be now.

I don't know. I feel like 53% TS is decently efficient for his era. To put that in perspective, Thompson has a 54% TS for his career in this era, and I don't think anyone would accuse him being inefficient. Also shot 37.5% from 3 for his career, which is outstanding.

Klay Thompson has a career TS% of .574 which goes up to .591 if you take out his first 3 seasons.
No idea where you got 54% unless you’re talking about a different Thompson.

Finley had a career TS% of .527 and he never shot over .522 in any of his 4 peak seasons. Carmelo Anthony had 13 seasons in a row more efficient than any of Finley’s 4 peak seasons.

Yep. Honestly, a better Dario Saric is a more apropos Finley comparison. He could pass a bit, rebound a bit, score a bit, but wasn't great at anything. He was a workhorse and played heavy minutes. Good teammate. But he's nowhere near a top 20 player.

[clyde21]

I was young and a big Mavs fan during his prime so I kinda remember him as being better than he was, but he never had one year top 20 in RAPM, was consistently a below average defender, and not very efficient offensively. I think it’s pretty questionable whether he was ever a Top 15 player in his own day and he certainly wouldn’t be now.

I don't know. I feel like 53% TS is decently efficient for his era. To put that in perspective, Thompson has a 54% TS for his career in this era, and I don't think anyone would accuse him being inefficient. Also shot 37.5% from 3 for his career, which is outstanding.

No, it's not. And in what world is 37.5% from three "outstanding?" Good, sure, but outstanding?

It's absolutely farcical to ask if a guy who never cracked a 20 PER, has a career TS% of 53, and a career BPM of only 1, would be a top 15 player today.

I'm not gonna sit here and debate semantics with you on the difference between 'good' and 'outstanding'...but 37.5% for his career, considering the timeframe it was in, is absolutely great. From '97 to '04' the guy averaged 21/5.5/4.0/1.5 on 45% from the field, 37% from the field, 81% from the FT line.

And I'm not sure what 'cracking 20 PER' has to do with anything. Draymond Green, who's never cracked 20 PER once, Thompson who's cracked only once, and are averaging 15.6 and 16.3 PER respectively are often seen as top 15 players TODAY. Finley averaged 16 PER for his career 18 PER in his prime.

[pandrade83]

Top 25-30 sounds about right

Which 7-12 are you taking him over?

1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Durant
4. Giannis
5. Embiid
6. Kawih Leonard
7. Anthony Davis
8. James Harden
9. CP3
10. Klay Thompson
11. Rudy Gobert
12. Ben Simmons
13. Jimmy
14. Blake Griffin
15. Westbrook
16. Paul George
17. Kyrie Irving
18. Cousins
19. KAT
20. Mitchell
21. Jokic
22. Dame
23. Draymond
24. Tobias
25. Conley
26. Gasol
27. Fox
28. Derozan
29. Doncic
30. Lowry
31. Horford
32. Tatum
33. Oladipo
34. Kemba
35. Richardson
36. Beal
37. Holiday

[SactoKingsFan]

I doubt Finley would be top 15 but I could see some borderline/ low level sll-star seasons similar to Joe Johnson.

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[TheBonzaiEffect]

I doubt Finley would be top 15 but I could see some borderline/ low level sll-star seasons similar to Joe Johnson.

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Why? Joe Johnson was a much better basketball player by every metric.

[SactoKingsFan]

I doubt Finley would be top 15 but I could see some borderline/ low level sll-star seasons similar to Joe Johnson.

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Why? Joe Johnson was a much better basketball player by every metric.

Both were borderline all stars even if Johnson was better.

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[TheBonzaiEffect]

I don't know. I feel like 53% TS is decently efficient for his era. To put that in perspective, Thompson has a 54% TS for his career in this era, and I don't think anyone would accuse him being inefficient. Also shot 37.5% from 3 for his career, which is outstanding.

No, it's not. And in what world is 37.5% from three "outstanding?" Good, sure, but outstanding?

It's absolutely farcical to ask if a guy who never cracked a 20 PER, has a career TS% of 53, and a career BPM of only 1, would be a top 15 player today.

I'm not gonna sit here and debate semantics with you on the difference between 'good' and 'outstanding'...but 37.5% for his career, considering the timeframe it was in, is absolutely great. From '97 to '04' the guy averaged 21/5.5/4.0/1.5 on 45% from the field, 37% from the field, 81% from the FT line.

And I'm not sure what 'cracking 20 PER' has to do with anything. Draymond Green, who's never cracked 20 PER once, Thompson who's cracked only once, and are averaging 15.6 and 16.3 PER respectively are often seen as top 15 players TODAY. Finley averaged 16 PER for his career 18 PER in his prime.

So just ignore the rest of what's been said? His raw percentages mean nothing. He was inefficient due to his inability to get to the line, thus the low TS%. He was a bad defender. Raw numbers for a guy playing 40 minutes a game don't mean much.

I mentioned PER because it's something a box score player like Finley should excel at, yet still he fails the test here. Green's PER is irrelevant because he has a fantastic VORP and BPM. We see his impact in other stats. There is NO stat, aside from raw numbers, to demonstrate an all-star impact from Finley. Not PER, not BPM, not VORP, not ORtg/DRtg. Nothing. Because he wasn't that good.

[JordansBulls]

In this era for sure.

[skones]

Finley was a highly inefficient scorer, as he couldn't get to the FT line, and wasn't a great 3PT shooter most of his career. His career TS% is 52.7. His HIGH during his Dallas tenure was 54%. Butler's career TS% is 57.2.

Butler is a highly efficient scorer, Finley was an inefficient scorer.

In order to call one player "inefficient" you have to compare him to the era he played in rather than an entirely different let it fly from three or score a the rim we have today. The statistic heavily favors anyone in this current era.

Finley was a volume scorer on league average efficiency. Painting him as this "highly inefficient player" as you are is off base and should be factored into any discussion re: Finley. You can't simply compare TS% from players across eras as it completely ignores the baseline for comparison.