#4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - Top 10 Defensively at each position Project

[Gibson22]

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney

Small Forwards:


1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES

Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics
John Havlicek (1963-1978) Celtics
Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis
Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle
Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets
Julius Erving (1972-87) Virginia Squires, New York Nets, 76ers
Jamaal Wilkes (1975-86) Warriors, Lakers, Clippers
Bill Hanzlik (1981-90) Seattle, Nuggets
Paul Pressey (1983-93) Bucks, Spurs, Warriors
Rodney McCray (1984-93) Houston, Sacramento, Dallas, Bulls
Derrick McKey (1988-2002) Seattle, Indiana, 76ers
Rick Fox (1992-04) Celtics, Lakers
George Lynch (1994-05) Lakers, Vancouver Grizzlies, 76ers, Hornets
Grant Hill (1995-13) Detroit, Magic, Suns, Clippers
Bruce Bowen (1997-2009) Heat, Celtics, 76ers, Spurs
Posey (2000-11) Nuggets, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, Boston, Hornets, Pacers
Marion (2000-15) Suns, Heat, Toronto, Dallas, Cleveland
Stephen Jackson (2001-14) Nets, Spurs, Hawks, Pacers, Warriors, Charlotte, Bucks, Spurs, Clippers
Shane Battier (2002-14) Grizzlies, Rockets, Heat
Andrei Kirilenko (2002-15) Jazz, Minnesota, Nets
Gerald Wallace (2002-15) Sacramento, Charlotte, Blazers, Nets, Celtics
Tayshaun Prince (2003-16) Detroit, Grizzlies, Celtics, Minnesota
Andre Iguodala (2005-19+) 76ers, Nuggets, Warriors
Luol Deng (2005-19+) Bulls, Cavaliers, Heat, Lakers, Minnesota
Paul George (2011-19+) Pacers, OKC
Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors
Robert Covington (2014-19+) 76ers




Hi guys

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[GusFring]

I'd have Andre Iguodala pretty high. One of the smartest defender I've ever watched, on ball and team defense. Reminds me a lot of scotty.

[Luigi]

Feeling the Andrei Kirilenko vote tonight.

Bruce Bowen is up next for me.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I don't think Leonard has the longevity to have a spot yet. I'm leaning Battier, though Iguodala and Bowen are in consideration for me here too.

[iggymcfrack]

Voting Shane Battier. insane peak with 3 years in a row with a DRAPM between +3.2 and +4.2. Kirilenko and Iguodala both have one season over 3.0, Bowen has zero.

[Gibson22]

What do you think about shawn marion? I'm thinking about him or iguodala

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Andre Iguodala. Great longevity and all the tools are there between one of the best basketball IQs and most athletic wings of his generation with good length. When it comes to Battier I just think Iguodala is more talented, it's hard to think of what Battier does better than Iguodala than I guess being just even smarter

[penbeast0]

Battier seemed to have better size and more able to guard combo forward types than Iggy. Despite this, still looking at Bruce Bowen here. Yes, he was dirty, but he was consistently good for a long stretch and if the refs let you get away with dirty play, it's no more out of place in assessing impact than Jordan getting superstar calls or LeBron being allowed to take gather steps, 3 step layups, and "crab dribbles." It's part of the game as it was played.

[cecilthesheep]

I voted Kawhi last time, but I'll vote Bruce Bowen this time. LeBron over him just seems nuts to me, I think Bowen peaked higher and maintained his peak for longer.

[pandrade83]

John Havlicek time for me.

Case for:
-Russell was obviously the defensive anchor of those teams, but you don't become that elite without help & Hondo was the next most important player when Boston was at the height of it's defensive power
-After Russell retired, Boston was better than league average defensively every year through '77 with an average rel Drating of -2.4. Havlicek was playing monster minutes & some of those years were without prime Cowens.
-Made 8 All-D Teams; likely would've made more if award was around earlier.
-11 Seasons Top 10 in DWS; 7 of those in the Top 5.

When you combine the motor he brought with the team results with the accolades with the minutes, there's too much there to go against him in my opinion.

[KnickFan33]

kawhi

[iggymcfrack]

I voted Kawhi last time, but I'll vote Bruce Bowen this time. LeBron over him just seems nuts to me, I think Bowen peaked higher and maintained his peak for longer.

I don’t know how you can say he maintained his peak for longer when he only even got starters minutes from age 29-36. He didn’t really put up elite DRAPM numbers until age 32. He has to have one of the shortest peaks of anyone who’s not still in their 20s like Kawhi or RoCo.

[No-more-rings]

Wow just realized Lebron got in at 3rd. Still seems rather high. For the talk of Leonard’s defensive longevity..how much better is Lebron’s? Leonard has like 2013-2017 at that elite level, Lebron 09-13. I get that Lebron still has other good defensive years but does that override that Kawhi’s defensive peak was clearly higher? I might make the case that 4/5 of those seasons I mentioned all were better defensive years than anything from Lebron.

[iggymcfrack]

Wow just realized Lebron got in at 3rd. Still seems rather high. For the talk of Leonard’s defensive longevity..how much better is Lebron’s? Leonard has like 2013-2017 at that elite level, Lebron 09-13. I get that Lebron still has other good defensive years but does that override that Kawhi’s defensive peak was clearly higher? I might make the case that 4/5 of those seasons I mentioned all were better defensive years than anything from Lebron.

In 2016, LeBron was second among all wing players in DRPM trailing only Kawhi with a +3.30. That was better than Kawhi had in DRPM any season except for ‘15 or ‘16. Furthermore, it was built on the single best defensive performance by a wing player in the history of the NBA Finals. I think you’re really selling LeBron short to say he stopped being elite defensively in 2013.

[hype_2004]

The Klaw

[Gibson22]

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[Gibson22]

I don't think Leonard has the longevity to have a spot yet. I'm leaning Battier, though Iguodala and Bowen are in consideration for me here too.

So is this a vote for battier?

[Gibson22]

My vote goes to andre iguodala. I don't have a real reasoning, but between the guys I have considered, I consider him slightly better than marion and with more defensive longevity, better and with more longevity than battier, kawhi has like 1/3 of his minutes played, kirilenko is better than him but the longevity disparity is probably bigger. havlicek could deserve a spot too at this point, but for now I'm picking andre

[Shot Clock]

How is Rodman not on this list? Do people think he was always a PF? He was racking up defensive awards on the Pistons as a SF where he was guarding anyone from Pippen to Jordan.

[Owly]

How is Rodman not on this list? Do people think he was always a PF? He was racking up defensive awards on the Pistons as a SF where he was guarding anyone from Pippen to Jordan.

See the small forward introductory thread. viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1764269

Long story short: Players are allocated one position. Rodman (whilst some noted his defensive abilities as a SF) was considered primarily a PF.

Also "from Pippen to Jordan" (SG to SF, both athletic slashers) seems to me to be underselling young Rodman's defensive range/versatility (probably by quite a lot).