Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics John Havlicek (1963-1978) Celtics Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets Julius Erving (1972-87) Virginia Squires, New York Nets, 76ers Jamaal Wilkes (1975-86) Warriors, Lakers, Clippers Bill Hanzlik (1981-90) Seattle, Nuggets Paul Pressey (1983-93) Bucks, Spurs, Warriors Rodney McCray (1984-93) Houston, Sacramento, Dallas, Bulls Derrick McKey (1988-2002) Seattle, Indiana, 76ers Rick Fox (1992-04) Celtics, Lakers George Lynch (1994-05) Lakers, Vancouver Grizzlies, 76ers, Hornets Grant Hill (1995-13) Detroit, Magic, Suns, Clippers Bruce Bowen (1997-2009) Heat, Celtics, 76ers, Spurs Posey (2000-11) Nuggets, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, Boston, Hornets, Pacers Marion (2000-15) Suns, Heat, Toronto, Dallas, Cleveland Stephen Jackson (2001-14) Nets, Spurs, Hawks, Pacers, Warriors, Charlotte, Bucks, Spurs, Clippers Shane Battier (2002-14) Grizzlies, Rockets, Heat Andrei Kirilenko (2002-15) Jazz, Minnesota, Nets Gerald Wallace (2002-15) Sacramento, Charlotte, Blazers, Nets, Celtics Tayshaun Prince (2003-16) Detroit, Grizzlies, Celtics, Minnesota Andre Iguodala (2005-19+) 76ers, Nuggets, Warriors Luol Deng (2005-19+) Bulls, Cavaliers, Heat, Lakers, Minnesota Paul George (2011-19+) Pacers, OKC Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors Robert Covington (2014-19+) 76ers
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Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:44 am
by GusFring
I'd have Andre Iguodala pretty high. One of the smartest defender I've ever watched, on ball and team defense. Reminds me a lot of scotty.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:05 am
by Luigi
Feeling the Andrei Kirilenko vote tonight.
Bruce Bowen is up next for me.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:06 am
by Ainosterhaspie
I don't think Leonard has the longevity to have a spot yet. I'm leaning Battier, though Iguodala and Bowen are in consideration for me here too.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:10 am
by iggymcfrack
Voting Shane Battier. insane peak with 3 years in a row with a DRAPM between +3.2 and +4.2. Kirilenko and Iguodala both have one season over 3.0, Bowen has zero.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:12 am
by Gibson22
What do you think about shawn marion? I'm thinking about him or iguodala
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:28 am
by Dr Positivity
Vote Andre Iguodala. Great longevity and all the tools are there between one of the best basketball IQs and most athletic wings of his generation with good length. When it comes to Battier I just think Iguodala is more talented, it's hard to think of what Battier does better than Iguodala than I guess being just even smarter
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:28 am
by penbeast0
Battier seemed to have better size and more able to guard combo forward types than Iggy. Despite this, still looking at Bruce Bowen here. Yes, he was dirty, but he was consistently good for a long stretch and if the refs let you get away with dirty play, it's no more out of place in assessing impact than Jordan getting superstar calls or LeBron being allowed to take gather steps, 3 step layups, and "crab dribbles." It's part of the game as it was played.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:04 am
by cecilthesheep
I voted Kawhi last time, but I'll vote Bruce Bowen this time. LeBron over him just seems nuts to me, I think Bowen peaked higher and maintained his peak for longer.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:21 pm
by pandrade83
John Havlicek time for me.
Case for: -Russell was obviously the defensive anchor of those teams, but you don't become that elite without help & Hondo was the next most important player when Boston was at the height of it's defensive power -After Russell retired, Boston was better than league average defensively every year through '77 with an average rel Drating of -2.4. Havlicek was playing monster minutes & some of those years were without prime Cowens. -Made 8 All-D Teams; likely would've made more if award was around earlier. -11 Seasons Top 10 in DWS; 7 of those in the Top 5.
When you combine the motor he brought with the team results with the accolades with the minutes, there's too much there to go against him in my opinion.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:53 pm
by KnickFan33
kawhi
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:12 pm
by iggymcfrack
cecilthesheep wrote:I voted Kawhi last time, but I'll vote Bruce Bowen this time. LeBron over him just seems nuts to me, I think Bowen peaked higher and maintained his peak for longer.
I don’t know how you can say he maintained his peak for longer when he only even got starters minutes from age 29-36. He didn’t really put up elite DRAPM numbers until age 32. He has to have one of the shortest peaks of anyone who’s not still in their 20s like Kawhi or RoCo.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:24 pm
by No-more-rings
Wow just realized Lebron got in at 3rd. Still seems rather high. For the talk of Leonard’s defensive longevity..how much better is Lebron’s? Leonard has like 2013-2017 at that elite level, Lebron 09-13. I get that Lebron still has other good defensive years but does that override that Kawhi’s defensive peak was clearly higher? I might make the case that 4/5 of those seasons I mentioned all were better defensive years than anything from Lebron.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:38 am
by iggymcfrack
No-more-rings wrote:Wow just realized Lebron got in at 3rd. Still seems rather high. For the talk of Leonard’s defensive longevity..how much better is Lebron’s? Leonard has like 2013-2017 at that elite level, Lebron 09-13. I get that Lebron still has other good defensive years but does that override that Kawhi’s defensive peak was clearly higher? I might make the case that 4/5 of those seasons I mentioned all were better defensive years than anything from Lebron.
In 2016, LeBron was second among all wing players in DRPM trailing only Kawhi with a +3.30. That was better than Kawhi had in DRPM any season except for ‘15 or ‘16. Furthermore, it was built on the single best defensive performance by a wing player in the history of the NBA Finals. I think you’re really selling LeBron short to say he stopped being elite defensively in 2013.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:41 am
by hype_2004
The Klaw
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:21 am
by Gibson22
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Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:22 am
by Gibson22
Ainosterhaspie wrote:I don't think Leonard has the longevity to have a spot yet. I'm leaning Battier, though Iguodala and Bowen are in consideration for me here too.
So is this a vote for battier?
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:27 am
by Gibson22
My vote goes to andre iguodala. I don't have a real reasoning, but between the guys I have considered, I consider him slightly better than marion and with more defensive longevity, better and with more longevity than battier, kawhi has like 1/3 of his minutes played, kirilenko is better than him but the longevity disparity is probably bigger. havlicek could deserve a spot too at this point, but for now I'm picking andre
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:36 am
by Shot Clock
How is Rodman not on this list? Do people think he was always a PF? He was racking up defensive awards on the Pistons as a SF where he was guarding anyone from Pippen to Jordan.
Re: #4 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:45 am
by Owly
Shot Clock wrote:How is Rodman not on this list? Do people think he was always a PF? He was racking up defensive awards on the Pistons as a SF where he was guarding anyone from Pippen to Jordan.
Long story short: Players are allocated one position. Rodman (whilst some noted his defensive abilities as a SF) was considered primarily a PF.
Also "from Pippen to Jordan" (SG to SF, both athletic slashers) seems to me to be underselling young Rodman's defensive range/versatility (probably by quite a lot).