Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics John Havlicek (1963-1978) Celtics Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets Julius Erving (1972-87) Virginia Squires, New York Nets, 76ers Jamaal Wilkes (1975-86) Warriors, Lakers, Clippers Bill Hanzlik (1981-90) Seattle, Nuggets Paul Pressey (1983-93) Bucks, Spurs, Warriors Rodney McCray (1984-93) Houston, Sacramento, Dallas, Bulls Derrick McKey (1988-2002) Seattle, Indiana, 76ers Rick Fox (1992-04) Celtics, Lakers George Lynch (1994-05) Lakers, Vancouver Grizzlies, 76ers, Hornets Grant Hill (1995-13) Detroit, Magic, Suns, Clippers Bruce Bowen (1997-2009) Heat, Celtics, 76ers, Spurs Posey (2000-11) Nuggets, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, Boston, Hornets, Pacers Marion (2000-15) Suns, Heat, Toronto, Dallas, Cleveland Stephen Jackson (2001-14) Nets, Spurs, Hawks, Pacers, Warriors, Charlotte, Bucks, Spurs, Clippers Shane Battier (2002-14) Grizzlies, Rockets, Heat Andrei Kirilenko (2002-15) Jazz, Minnesota, Nets Gerald Wallace (2002-15) Sacramento, Charlotte, Blazers, Nets, Celtics Tayshaun Prince (2003-16) Detroit, Grizzlies, Celtics, Minnesota Luol Deng (2005-19+) Bulls, Cavaliers, Heat, Lakers, Minnesota Paul George (2011-19+) Pacers, OKC Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors Robert Covington (2014-19+) 76ers
Hi guys
Spoiler:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote: a
BAMBA5 wrote: a
ElectricMayhem wrote: a
Trundle wrote: a
penbeast0 wrote: a
PistolPeteJR wrote: a
Eminence wrote: a
Bounce_9 wrote: a
Samurai wrote: a
kendogg wrote: a
Lost92Bricks wrote: a
kcktiny wrote: a
Dr Positivity wrote: a
pandrade83 wrote: .
uberhikari wrote: .
Owly wrote: a
SHAQ32 wrote: a
KnickFan33 wrote: a
Luigi wrote: .
cecilthesheep wrote: I'
Jaivl wrote: a
LA Bird wrote: .
countryboy667 wrote: a
Heej wrote: a
Franco wrote: a
70sFan wrote: a
Witzig-Okashi wrote: a
mdonnelly1989 wrote: a
Gant wrote: a
koogiking wrote: a
homecourtloss wrote: a
ardee wrote: a
Iggymcfrack wrote: a
lambchop wrote:)
yoyoboy wrote:)
Dupp wrote:)
Winsome Gerbil wrote:)
Colbinii wrote:)
LivingLegend wrote:)
RonSwanson wrote:)
Sixersftw wrote:)
Jiminy Glick wrote:)
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:)
Sublime187 wrote:)
mischievous wrote:)
LeBird wrote:)
GusFring wrote:)
ardee wrote:)
SuperDario wrote:)
Ainosterhaspie wrote:)
[
Johnny Firpo wrote:)
NO-KG-AI wrote:)
Jkokkotos wrote:)
anglewings wrote:)
HurricaneKid wrote:)
micahclay wrote:)
MyUniBroDavis wrote:)
OrlandoTill wrote:/
apeezus wrote:/
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:31 pm
by KnickFan33
kawhi
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:15 pm
by Sixersftw
Kawhi
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:19 pm
by Hawk
Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:21 pm
by kendogg
hondo
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:42 pm
by ReaLiez
IDK if I am allowed to vote but my vote goes to Kawhi who's a DPOY and is known as a top 3 defender in the NBA when healthy HM Hondo, Dr. J, Bowen, Battier, AK47 and Prince
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:46 pm
by iggymcfrack
Still voting for Battier. Arguably had a better peak than Kawhi with much better longevity.
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:07 pm
by Threetimes10
Battier peaked as high (or higher) and did it longer.
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:21 pm
by cecilthesheep
Kawhi Leonard. I value peak over longevity somewhat and Kawhi had the highest peak i've ever seen.
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:09 pm
by trex_8063
Again going to present some ranked and concise multi-modal stat/data/info comparisons for most of the top candidates for this spot plus the guy who just took #4, as well as several other persons of interest (some of whom perhaps should be among the primary candidates): Covington, Deng, Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, Tayshaun Prince, Bob Dandridge. For DVOR figures I've used the defensive splits of Estimated Impact for Hondo and Dandridge (likely less reliable than DRAPM, but any port in a storm for these older players). Use this info [or not] as you wish......
All-Defensive Honors "Points" (awarding 1.5 pts for 1st Team selection, 1.0 for 2nd Team) John Havlicek - 10.5 (*All-D honors only awarded his final 10 seasons) Bruce Bowen - 10.5 Kawhi Leonard - 5.5 Tayshaun Prince - 4.0 Andrei Kirilenko - 3.5 Andre Iguodala - 2.5 Shane Battier - 2.0 Robert Covington - 1.5 Gerald Wallace - 1.5 Bob Dandridge - 1.5 Luol Deng - 1.0 Shawn Marion - 0!
DPOY Shares Kawhi Leonard - 1.736 (2x winner) Bruce Bowen - 1.514 Shane Battier - 0.548 Andrei Kirilenko - 0.366 Shawn Marion - 0.341 Gerald Wallace - 0.274 Andre Iguodala - 0.265 Tayshaun Prince - 0.112 Luol Deng - 0.082 Robert Covington - 0.024 **DPOY not awarded in Havlicek's and Dandridge’s career
Career DBPM (not including '19) Andrei Kirilenko - +3.5 Kawhi Leonard - +2.7 Gerald Wallace - +2.3 Shawn Marion - +2.1 Shane Battier - +1.9 Bruce Bowen - +1.8 Andre Iguodala - +1.6 Robert Covington - +1.0 Luol Deng - +0.7 Tayshaun Prince - +0.2 *John Havlicek - +0.1 (*only available his final five seasons) *Bob Dandridge - +0.1 (*not available his first four seasons)
Career DWS (not including '19) John Havlicek - 74.1 Shawn Marion - 61.3 Andre Iguodala - 44.1 Luol Deng - 38.9 Shane Battier - 35.3 Gerald Wallace - 35.0 Andrei Kirilenko - 34.7 Bruce Bowen - 33.5 Bob Dandridge - 33.0 Tayshaun Prince - 28.0 Kawhi Leonard - 24.7 Robert Covington - 12.1
Defensive Value Over Replacement Level [-0.75] as measured by DRAPM (Defensive Estimated Impact for Havlicek/Dandridge) CAREER Defensive Value Over Replacement Andre Iguodala - 94,380.5 Luol Deng - 77,700.0 John Havlicek - 74,340.75 Shane Battier - 73,682.5 Shawn Marion - 66,215.6 Gerald Wallace - 63,032.0 Bruce Bowen - 51,345.8 Andrei Kirilenko - 40,306.35 Bob Dandridge - 32,717.5 Kawhi Leonard - 29,493.5 Tayshaun Prince - 26,136.7 Robert Covington - 25,349.9
Average Defensive Value Over Replacement PER SEASON Andre Iguodala - 6,741.5 Shane Battier - 5,667.9 Luol Deng - 5,550.0 Robert Covington - 5,070.0 John Havlicek - 4,646.3 Gerald Wallace - 4,502.3 Bruce Bowen - 4,278.8 Kawhi Leonard - 4,213.4 Shawn Marion - 4,138.5 Andrei Kirilenko - 3,100.5 Bob Dandridge - 2,516.7 Tayshaun Prince - 1,866.9
Best 5-years Averaged Shane Battier - 10,586.0 Luol Deng - 9,658.2 Andre Iguodala - 9,456.6 Gerald Wallace - 8,470.9 Shawn Marion - 7,869.2 John Havlicek - 6,440.8 Bruce Bowen - 6,280.9 Kawhi Leonard - 6,031.8 Andrei Kirilenko - 5,612.9 Robert Covington - 5,070.0 Tayshaun Prince - 4,917.2 Bob Dandridge - 4,219.1
Best Single-Season VOR Luol Deng - 14,917.2 Shane Battier - 14,053.05 Shawn Marion - 12,713.65 Robert Covington - 12,254.9 Andre Iguodala - 11,810.75 Kawhi Leonard - 10,805.2 Gerald Wallace - 10,760.55 Bruce Bowen - 7,711.2 Tayshaun Prince - 7,677.9 John Havlicek - 7,239.05 Andrei Kirilenko - 6,639.95 Bob Dandridge - 4,991.0
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:13 pm
by trex_8063
I'm voting Shane Battier here.
Will quote myself from the last thread (scouting report type comparison of him and Iguodala). This, combined with the other data I'd previously presented constitute my thinking on the matter. fwiw, I'm beginning to think Luol Deng and Shawn Marion are deserving of consideration soon.
trex_8063 wrote: Iggy is listed as 6'6" and 215 lbs by both bbref and nba.com, 6'7" and 217 by DraftExpress. Battier is listed 6'8" and 220 lbs by bbref, but 6'9" and 229 by DraftExpress. Iggy has excellent reach for his height with a recorded 6'11" wingspan. Battier also has fairly long arms (not sure if has Iggy's span beat, but certainly good length/reach for his height). Couldn't find specific listings for their respective standing reaches, but I'd hazard a guess that Battier has Iguodala just marginally beat there, based on being ~2" taller and having somewhat long arms himself. And with roughly 5-10 lbs more mass, too, it's safe to say he's effectively the "bigger" SF.
However, Iguodala has clearly superior lateral quickness and is the more explosive leaper. And "pound-for-pound", I speculate that Iguodala may be marginally stronger, too (can't prove it, though).
Both are quite versatile defenders. Iguodala's combination of length, quickness, strength, and footwork enable him to effectively guard anything 1-4 (well, or at least as far as guarding "large" SF's---such as Lebron---very well). Battier, being bigger, can probably more effectively guard PF's, but his lateral quickness doesn't enable him to stay in front of most PG's (or some of the quicker SG's), though his length does aid him in "catching up" when he's beat. Gun to my head, I probably give Iguodala a very marginal edge in versatility, though it's debatable.
Stylistically, Iguodala looks better to me in on-ball pressure. He's much more physical in defending a dribbler: moves his feet well and stays in front, but also uses his body to bump and discourage his opponent. He's also got quick hands on those long arms, which he's constantly using to harass the dribble; consequently forces more turnovers than Battier. Shane Battier, to my eye, plays a little "softer" [that is: less contact] on-ball, but is extremely intelligent as far as his positioning and footwork is concerned. Looking at some of their box-based defensive production: Iguodala has career averages of 2.3 steals, 0.7 blocks, 6.3 DRebs per 100 possessions. Battier averaged 1.7 steals, 1.6 blocks, though only 4.9 DRebs per 100. That's a really high block avg from a SF, though from what I've seen of Battier I think a lot of his blocks come on jump-shooters. He gets a lot simply by being in good position and keeping a hand up (doesn't get burned in a "hand down, man down" situation often), because he's so long. To me, these are among the lowest value blocks (because jump-shots are the shots that are most likely to miss and be rebounded by the defensive team anyway). otoh, the fact that he's so "present" in contesting outside shots likely also means there are tons of shots he's reducing the accuracy of without coming up with a box-score tally (such as a block). Overall, I feel like Battier's the better outside shot contester, but Iguodala is more generally disruptive. Both guys are very timely in their rotations and help assignments.
In terms of accolades from the media, it's more or less a wash, or at best a tiny edge to Battier: he's got a small-moderate edge in terms of DPOY shares, though Iguodala has the slimmest of edges in All-Defensive honors.
In terms of box-based defensive metrics, it's basically a wash (or at best a tiny edge to Iguodala): Battier's got the marginally better DBPM (though Iggy's on more career minutes, fwiw). Iggy's got the small edge in DWS total. Both have a career 105 DRtg (Iggy's looks just marginally better in terms of rDRTG).
In terms of Value Over Replacement (via DRAPM), Battier looks to have the better single-season peak and the better top 5 seasons average. But then Iguodala's got the better overall average season and a comfortable edge in cumulative career DVOR.
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:08 pm
by Samurai
Voting for Bruce Bowen.
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:21 pm
by Ainosterhaspie
I'm voting Battier. Need Kawhi to be around longer to rise up the list. Battier was a critical defensive piece for the Heat's two titles while he was there, and with him fading in 2014, their defense fell apart in the finals. This was the tail end of his career and he helped deliver two titles. I doubt either run is successful without his defense.
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:43 pm
by pandrade83
Hondo for reasons stated in last thread.
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:28 am
by Gibson22
I'm voting for battier. The only 2 I have as significantly better than him (kirilenko and kawhi) have a big longevity disadvantage
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:28 am
by Gibson22
kawhi and shane are tied at 5
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:57 pm
by LA Bird
Vote: Shane Battier One of the best defensive SF peak statistically in the plus minus era and the only two guys ahead of him (Iguodala, Artest) have already been voted in. Battier had solid career longevity (much better than Kawhi) and I like his defense better than contemporaries such as Bowen/Kirilenko.
I might be looking at Havlicek next round just for somebody from a different time period. With Bowen, Kawhi and Kirilenko likely all getting voted in soon, I only just noticed the top defensive SF list is unusually, heavily dominated by wings from the 2000s. Maybe the relatively low efficiency of iso wings from those years have led us to overrate the defense of those SFs guarding them?
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:22 pm
by Dr Positivity
Battier is top 5 regular season if not top 3 based on his +/- data. However his impact is all largely subtle glue guy stuff. The weakness of RAPM has always been it's a regular season stat only and it's possible Battier not having another level of individual dominance as a defender hurts his case in playoffs compared to defenders like Kawhi and Bowen. The modern equivalent would be defenders like Patterson (pre knee surgery) and Crowder who have always been great DRPM players in regular season but in the playoffs the talent catches up to them on both ends. Battier is better than them and does have some individual moments like defending Kobe but it's from the same school of defense of players with average athleticism who are in the right spots. My guess is he has more consistent game to game defense than Bowen in the regular season while Bowen's impact is more dependent on whether there's a star to shut down. This however could give Bowen a higher ceiling in the playoffs. If the Cavs of the last two years had the choice of adding either Bowen or Battier my choice would be Bowen as having Bowen on Durant would be series changing. However to be fair there are also probably some playoff series against teams not driven by wings where Battier's help defense is more valuable than Bowen.
Kawhi is a dominant individual defender in every way at his peak but only for a few years. Nevertheless even outside of 2015 and 2016, 2012-2014 and 2017 are all pretty good on defense, and 2014 Finals is some of the best defense he's played
I rate AK below Kawhi since his longevity as an elite defender is not much longer and he is more of a great help guy than man to man. If Dr J was dominant it probably wasn't for long enough. PG has been in the league barely longer than Kawhi so he should be below him. Deng probably gets consideration from me soon as I think he has a case against Battier and Bowen types and is longevity friendly, but he has no votes right now anyways
Havlicek I just don't have the data for. A guy who plays really hard and is in everyone's face could be underrated by the media. Or he could on this l be the deserving #2 on this list. I do think he peaked on way weaker era for wings to stop
Vote Kawhi Leonard - I think highest ceiling and other above average years are enough here
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:49 pm
by trex_8063
Dr Positivity wrote:Battier is top 5 regular season if not top 3 based on his +/- data. However his impact is all largely subtle glue guy stuff. The weakness of RAPM has always been it's a regular season stat only
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the bolded is correct (depending upon source). In fact, I was under the impression that most data-sets not only include consideration of the playoffs [unless specifically stated otherwise], but often even weight the playoff possessions more heavily [per possession]. EDIT: For example, ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt (my source for RAPM for '97-'00) specifically states each playoff possession is given twice the weight of a rs possession.
Re: #5 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:05 am
by penbeast0
Watching them play, I was always more impressed with Bowen than Battier, though Battier was more cerebral and more versatile. However, since Battier and Leonard are the only ones getting traction, I do think Battier deserves the career value edge over Kawhi Leonard; Leonard just hasn't enough seasons at a top level yet to be ahead of Battier, Bowen, or Havlicek in my book though he has had some outstanding seasons.