2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1001 » by cpower » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:49 pm

RS:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Harden
3 George
4 Jokic
5 Curry


PS:
1.Curry
2.Kawhi
3.Antetokounmpo
4.Green
5.Lowry

Overall:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Curry
3 Leonard
4 Jokic
5 Harden
6 Embiid
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1002 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:39 pm

How good/bad was kawhi on defense this year?
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1003 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:43 pm

cpower wrote:RS:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Harden
3 George
4 Jokic
5 Curry


PS:
1.Curry
2.Kawhi
3.Antetokounmpo
4.Green
5.Lowry

Overall:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Curry
3 Leonard
4 Jokic
5 Harden
6 Embiid


Why are you low on Hardens post-season?
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1004 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:44 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:How good/bad was kawhi on defense this year?


Inconsistent, especially in the regular season [slight positive].

Better in the post-season but not close to All-NBA defensive 2nd team caliber for any series at large.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1005 » by Timmyyy » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:40 pm

Colbinii wrote:
cpower wrote:RS:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Harden
3 George
4 Jokic
5 Curry


PS:
1.Curry
2.Kawhi
3.Antetokounmpo
4.Green
5.Lowry

Overall:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Curry
3 Leonard
4 Jokic
5 Harden
6 Embiid


Why are you low on Hardens post-season?



Yeah I can't quite get behind the PS list either. In my opinion even worse is having Jokic off the list. This guy went pretty crazy in the PO. I have him top 3 in the PO and while I don't think everybody needs to think that way I really have a hard time seeing Lowry above him (and Harden below Lowry for that matter).

That's actually the whole point. Lowry was worse than these guys in the RS because he didn't have the impact of the other two. Now we get to the playoffs and Lowry plays at his RS level...at best. Doing that he was quite inconsistent too, there were guys again calling him playoff choker after some games because he had a lot of stinkers again. Then you have Jokic, a player that was already on a way better level in RS, playing out of his mind in the PO and he was worse than Lowry? No, I don't think so. An Harden playing a little worse than his RS level is all of the sudden worse than Lowry? Hmm.

I mean Lowry was a great 2nd guy these playoffs. The Raptors were really fortunate to have such a good player next to a better player in Kawhi but I think even him being the 2nd best player on his own team is a thing that needs to be discussed, since Siakam was there and he was pretty good too.

I can't imagine a good reasoning for this. Maybe cpower has a good argument but right now I don't see it at all.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1006 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:26 pm

Timmyyy wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
cpower wrote:RS:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Harden
3 George
4 Jokic
5 Curry


PS:
1.Curry
2.Kawhi
3.Antetokounmpo
4.Green
5.Lowry

Overall:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Curry
3 Leonard
4 Jokic
5 Harden
6 Embiid


Why are you low on Hardens post-season?



Yeah I can't quite get behind the PS list either. In my opinion even worse is having Jokic off the list. This guy went pretty crazy in the PO. I have him top 3 in the PO and while I don't think everybody needs to think that way I really have a hard time seeing Lowry above him (and Harden below Lowry for that matter).

That's actually the whole point. Lowry was worse than these guys in the RS because he didn't have the impact of the other two. Now we get to the playoffs and Lowry plays at his RS level...at best. Doing that he was quite inconsistent too, there were guys again calling him playoff choker after some games because he had a lot of stinkers again. Then you have Jokic, a player that was already on a way better level in RS, playing out of his mind in the PO and he was worse than Lowry? No, I don't think so. An Harden playing a little worse than his RS level is all of the sudden worse than Lowry? Hmm.

I mean Lowry was a great 2nd guy these playoffs. The Raptors were really fortunate to have such a good player next to a better player in Kawhi but I think even him being the 2nd best player on his own team is a thing that needs to be discussed, since Siakam was there and he was pretty good too.

I can't imagine a good reasoning for this. Maybe cpower has a good argument but right now I don't see it at all.


Winning makes a huge difference in perception. Player expectations as well.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1007 » by cpower » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:23 am

Colbinii wrote:
cpower wrote:RS:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Harden
3 George
4 Jokic
5 Curry


PS:
1.Curry
2.Kawhi
3.Antetokounmpo
4.Green
5.Lowry

Overall:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Curry
3 Leonard
4 Jokic
5 Harden
6 Embiid


Why are you low on Hardens post-season?

why are you high on Harden's post-season? he was clearly not good. Him and Lowry would battle for the #5 but Lowry had an amazing final series so edge to him
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1008 » by cpower » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:28 am

Timmyyy wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
cpower wrote:RS:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Harden
3 George
4 Jokic
5 Curry


PS:
1.Curry
2.Kawhi
3.Antetokounmpo
4.Green
5.Lowry

Overall:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Curry
3 Leonard
4 Jokic
5 Harden
6 Embiid


Why are you low on Hardens post-season?



Yeah I can't quite get behind the PS list either. In my opinion even worse is having Jokic off the list. This guy went pretty crazy in the PO. I have him top 3 in the PO and while I don't think everybody needs to think that way I really have a hard time seeing Lowry above him (and Harden below Lowry for that matter).

That's actually the whole point. Lowry was worse than these guys in the RS because he didn't have the impact of the other two. Now we get to the playoffs and Lowry plays at his RS level...at best. Doing that he was quite inconsistent too, there were guys again calling him playoff choker after some games because he had a lot of stinkers again. Then you have Jokic, a player that was already on a way better level in RS, playing out of his mind in the PO and he was worse than Lowry? No, I don't think so. An Harden playing a little worse than his RS level is all of the sudden worse than Lowry? Hmm.

I mean Lowry was a great 2nd guy these playoffs. The Raptors were really fortunate to have such a good player next to a better player in Kawhi but I think even him being the 2nd best player on his own team is a thing that needs to be discussed, since Siakam was there and he was pretty good too.

I can't imagine a good reasoning for this. Maybe cpower has a good argument but right now I don't see it at all.

Jokic is much better player than Lowry but Lowry does more for his team over the entire PS, especially in the finals. Raptors dont win the ring without Lowry.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1009 » by Timmyyy » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:00 am

cpower wrote:
Timmyyy wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Why are you low on Hardens post-season?



Yeah I can't quite get behind the PS list either. In my opinion even worse is having Jokic off the list. This guy went pretty crazy in the PO. I have him top 3 in the PO and while I don't think everybody needs to think that way I really have a hard time seeing Lowry above him (and Harden below Lowry for that matter).

That's actually the whole point. Lowry was worse than these guys in the RS because he didn't have the impact of the other two. Now we get to the playoffs and Lowry plays at his RS level...at best. Doing that he was quite inconsistent too, there were guys again calling him playoff choker after some games because he had a lot of stinkers again. Then you have Jokic, a player that was already on a way better level in RS, playing out of his mind in the PO and he was worse than Lowry? No, I don't think so. An Harden playing a little worse than his RS level is all of the sudden worse than Lowry? Hmm.

I mean Lowry was a great 2nd guy these playoffs. The Raptors were really fortunate to have such a good player next to a better player in Kawhi but I think even him being the 2nd best player on his own team is a thing that needs to be discussed, since Siakam was there and he was pretty good too.

I can't imagine a good reasoning for this. Maybe cpower has a good argument but right now I don't see it at all.

Jokic is much better player than Lowry but Lowry does more for his team over the entire PS, especially in the finals. Raptors dont win the ring without Lowry.

I mean you yourself admit that lowry is worse. Him 'doing' more than Jokic can only mean playing more because he was worse than Jokic when he played and him being in the finals can also not be compared to Jokic. So where is the point in putting a guy you admitted to be worse over a better player just because he played more? That makes no sense. And the Raps might not win the title without Gasol or siakam or Green or FVV too. Are all these guys above Jokic? So simply being on a great team gives you a bump in your rankings? Without Jokic the Nugs might fail to make the PO and in the playoffs they have a zero chance to win anything.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense as a basketball analysis in my opinion.

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1010 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:28 am

cpower wrote:
Timmyyy wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Why are you low on Hardens post-season?



Yeah I can't quite get behind the PS list either. In my opinion even worse is having Jokic off the list. This guy went pretty crazy in the PO. I have him top 3 in the PO and while I don't think everybody needs to think that way I really have a hard time seeing Lowry above him (and Harden below Lowry for that matter).

That's actually the whole point. Lowry was worse than these guys in the RS because he didn't have the impact of the other two. Now we get to the playoffs and Lowry plays at his RS level...at best. Doing that he was quite inconsistent too, there were guys again calling him playoff choker after some games because he had a lot of stinkers again. Then you have Jokic, a player that was already on a way better level in RS, playing out of his mind in the PO and he was worse than Lowry? No, I don't think so. An Harden playing a little worse than his RS level is all of the sudden worse than Lowry? Hmm.

I mean Lowry was a great 2nd guy these playoffs. The Raptors were really fortunate to have such a good player next to a better player in Kawhi but I think even him being the 2nd best player on his own team is a thing that needs to be discussed, since Siakam was there and he was pretty good too.

I can't imagine a good reasoning for this. Maybe cpower has a good argument but right now I don't see it at all.

Jokic is much better player than Lowry but Lowry does more for his team over the entire PS, especially in the finals. Raptors dont win the ring without Lowry.


The Nuggets wouldn't get where they were without Jokic. You think Lowry is more important to the Raptors than the Nuggets??
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1011 » by cpower » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:40 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
cpower wrote:
Timmyyy wrote:

Yeah I can't quite get behind the PS list either. In my opinion even worse is having Jokic off the list. This guy went pretty crazy in the PO. I have him top 3 in the PO and while I don't think everybody needs to think that way I really have a hard time seeing Lowry above him (and Harden below Lowry for that matter).

That's actually the whole point. Lowry was worse than these guys in the RS because he didn't have the impact of the other two. Now we get to the playoffs and Lowry plays at his RS level...at best. Doing that he was quite inconsistent too, there were guys again calling him playoff choker after some games because he had a lot of stinkers again. Then you have Jokic, a player that was already on a way better level in RS, playing out of his mind in the PO and he was worse than Lowry? No, I don't think so. An Harden playing a little worse than his RS level is all of the sudden worse than Lowry? Hmm.

I mean Lowry was a great 2nd guy these playoffs. The Raptors were really fortunate to have such a good player next to a better player in Kawhi but I think even him being the 2nd best player on his own team is a thing that needs to be discussed, since Siakam was there and he was pretty good too.

I can't imagine a good reasoning for this. Maybe cpower has a good argument but right now I don't see it at all.

Jokic is much better player than Lowry but Lowry does more for his team over the entire PS, especially in the finals. Raptors dont win the ring without Lowry.


The Nuggets wouldn't get where they were without Jokic. You think Lowry is more important to the Raptors than the Nuggets??

I thought I made it pretty clear there. Lowry generated more Ws than Jokic because he played more games and also get extra credit for being the engine of a championship team. That is a 50 w team with and without kawhi and lowry was a big part of that. He run the offense beautifully.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1012 » by Timmyyy » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:23 pm

cpower wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
cpower wrote:Jokic is much better player than Lowry but Lowry does more for his team over the entire PS, especially in the finals. Raptors dont win the ring without Lowry.


The Nuggets wouldn't get where they were without Jokic. You think Lowry is more important to the Raptors than the Nuggets??

I thought I made it pretty clear there. Lowry generated more Ws than Jokic because he played more games and also get extra credit for being the engine of a championship team. That is a 50 w team with and without kawhi and lowry was a big part of that. He run the offense beautifully.


You were pretty clear. But I guess some are a little confused because this is a funky way to go, sorry to word it like that.

I mean following that example of evaluation, Siakam should be above Giannis. He played more and because of that was able to contribute more to winning. Without him they don't win the title. Without Kawhi that team is still a 50 win team and Siakam was a big part of that.

Come on, we are talking about different level of players. Why should I care that the way worse guy was fortunate enough to have such a good team that was able to cover for his horrible shooting nights in the PO's, when the other guys team (that was actually great in the RS) turned into the most inconsistent shooting team in the league, despite him playing out of his mind doing everything to keep it close.

That is literally judging someone purely based on team results and not on individual play and it somehow just accures at this very point. The rest of your lists aren't following that pattern and even in the same list you aren't following that pattern since you have Curry who didn't contribute to the championship team over Kawhi.

I mean I always try to get guys viewpoints on evaluations and try to get the reasoning but this just seems completely unreasonable and inconsistent. You throw PIPM out there to show how bad Harden is supposed to be when Lowry is at 1.86 nearly +2 worse than Harden. But hey, in Wins added he is 0.23 better than Harden despite playing more as double the games (and 0.56 worse than Joker).

There might be even more guys than Harden and Jokic that were better than Lowry this PO's and your PIPM lists actually gives a good case for some.

If you want to bump guys up for having great teams no matter how good they were themselves, ok, but at least make it consistent then.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1013 » by Colbinii » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:18 pm

cpower wrote:
why are you high on Harden's post-season? he was clearly not good. Him and Lowry would battle for the #5 but Lowry had an amazing final series so edge to him
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Well for starters Harden was by far a top 2 player in the regular season and has a strong argument as the best player during the regular season. He carried an injured Houston team to a top 4 seed in a competitive Western Conference. His regular season was more impressive than Lowry's and I don't think it is particularly close. Lowry was a top 15-20 player during the regular season; Harden a clear-cut top 2.

Moving onto the post-season I don't get the notion of "He wasn't that good". He had the 8th highest PIPM according to the data in which YOU posted. No other Houston player finished in the top 15. Kyle Lowry on the other hand wasn't top 15 in either offense nor defense, yet he somehow had a better post-season than James Harden? Come on dude. Harden, on the other hand, finished neutral defensively and had what appears to be a great offensive post-season with his +3.71 offensive PIPM.

Penalizing Harden for losing to a superior team, a team better than any team Toronto faced in the post-season, just smells of "I don't like Harden". You are a great poster but you are literally ignoring everything and batting a blind eye to what actually happened on the court.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1014 » by lebron3-14-3 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:16 pm

What are we waiting for...
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1015 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:44 am

E-Balla wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
You're right Curry is obviously the perfect player with no weaknesses thanks for this key analysis...

I'm not getting deep into this, anyone with a half a brain could see Curry was already Curry prior to Kerr and it didn't lead to anything offensively without that system. He clearly benefitted from Kerr's coaching.

Curry before he destroyed the 3 point record was already curry? What?

I'm also not sure what the strawman's for. You said you have to lower him all time due to weaknesses in his offence. Feel free to list the weaknesses in his game that set him aside from less versatile all time talents. Actually. Why don't you list a single more offensively portable player since curry apparently is dependent on his system. I hope it's not wilt who managed to make the goat offence average. :)
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1016 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:52 am

Joey Wheeler wrote:
Outside wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:Can't believe some people are still holding on the "Curry scoring over double teams" while "Durant gets wide open dunks" narrative myths for the 2017 Finals. This is not matter of opinion, it's simply demonstrably false, stats showed Durant took more contested shots than Curry... by a considerable margin.


But that's not the narrative. The actual narrative is that opposing defenses double Curry or otherwise put their primary defensive focus on Curry, thereby allowing others, including Durant to shoot open shots or against single coverage.

You see, when faced with a double team, Curry doesn't shoot over it as your version of the narrative implies. Instead, he passes out of it.

But then, that's only half of it. The other half is when Curry doesn't have the ball. When off ball, Curry demands far more attention from the defense than Durant does when he is off ball, again opening opportunities for teammates, including Durant.

It's easy to shoot down a Curry myth when you set up a false Curry myth. His actual non-box score impact, however, is not a myth.


2017 Finals - 26,2% of Durant's shots were open or wide open; 57,3% of Curry's shots were open or wide open. But yeah, let's credit Curry 'getting him open' for Durant scoring 35 on 70% TS while the majority of his shots were contested.

Curry's non-box score impact is real, but it is exaggerated to the extreme around here by people not wanting to admit they were fooled when Curry seemed to be walking on water in the 2016 RS. The 2017 Finals were the peak of this with a narrative that just goes against every fact/stat.

Facts:
-> Curry set a record for plus minus in 2017
-> Curry has posted a top 5 all time adjusted plus minus stretch
-> his teammates ts were more impacted without him than any other player in the league in 2017
-> curry's impact #'s have only been surpassed or rivalled by lebron from 2015-2018
-> durant's ts drops massively when curry goes off the floor
-> the warriors are far worse without curry in the po's or the regular season than without durant.
-> Curry led his team to a 107 offensive rating vs an atg defence when klay was his only good scoring option

What facts do you use?
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1017 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Jul 1, 2019 7:00 am

freethedevil wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Curry won 50 games with one shooter before he became the goat three point chucker. Curry is the least system dependent offensive star in the leagueso the assertion he is dependent on coaching here is asinine.

They won 50 games behind the 4th ranked defense. They only had a +0.8 offense even though they had 2 other 18+ ppg scorers outside of Steph. Why are we pretending Kerr didn't completely change how Steph was utilized skyrocketing his on/off numbers?

Ah yes, because kerr's system is why he's the goat 3 point shooter. And obviously without said system his playmaking and scoring would dissapear...

Except it didn't. Warriors with one consistent shooter in klay posted a o rating of 107 vs an atg defence. The warriors in the playoffs score one point more point with the hampton's 5 per 100 poss than they do with green+steph+role players. Curry is the offensive system. Penalizing curry when his skill set is vastly more versatile than the likes of durant, harden, or kawhi. What "weakness" exactly, is curry being shielded from? How did curry score as well as kd did in 2017 over double teams if he's "easier to exploit"?

Curry's "teammates cover for him", but his teammates are vastly more dependent on him then he is on them.

How does someone look at someone who
-> can shoot from anywhere
-> score comparably to the best scorers despite farmore defensive attention
-> succeeds with any collection of offensive teammates
-> score with or without the ball
-> pass at an elite level
-> supercharge average teammates' offence
and decide he should be dinged compared to his peers who
-> can't pass as well
-> can't dribble as well
-> haven't ever scored as well on their own
-> need the ball more than he does
-> don't space the floor as well
-> haven't ever contended without some of the playmaking in the league.

Curry would excel in any offensive system. I can't say the same for his peers.


Saying curry is optimized through a really good system =/= he is a system player

System doesent mean "he has good players around him and they play in a really good system" its "they play in a good system made possible through curry"

The system is as amazing as it is because of currys unique gravity, but at the same time curry isnt the type that you can give him the ball and expect something to happen without any action around him. Hes a good iso scorer but struggles more against really good perimeter defenders than most great iso scorers and gets alot of it from mismatches, but because of his playing style and frame and athleticism he doesnt have as many mismatches as someone like lebron

So when the system is limited or countered his team struggles, but through curry there are ways to break through these counters (like when they did the box and one on the warriors and shut them down)

The box and one should not have worked at all against the warriors, and there were ways to exploit it, but since curry is more of a decision making genius rather than a i can read everything genius, he needed his coach to make this read and adjust accordingly, and he didnt so they struggled

Its not a big knock on curry and i fully expect him to dominate next year with a bad offensive cast, but he does have limitations that have made him overall less effective in the playoffs. i still think hes the best or second best offensive player in the league, but he cant adjust the entire offense on the fly like some other players can, which is a really really select few
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1018 » by freethedevil » Tue Jul 2, 2019 4:34 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
E-Balla wrote:They won 50 games behind the 4th ranked defense. They only had a +0.8 offense even though they had 2 other 18+ ppg scorers outside of Steph. Why are we pretending Kerr didn't completely change how Steph was utilized skyrocketing his on/off numbers?

Ah yes, because kerr's system is why he's the goat 3 point shooter. And obviously without said system his playmaking and scoring would dissapear...

Except it didn't. Warriors with one consistent shooter in klay posted a o rating of 107 vs an atg defence. The warriors in the playoffs score one point more point with the hampton's 5 per 100 poss than they do with green+steph+role players. Curry is the offensive system. Penalizing curry when his skill set is vastly more versatile than the likes of durant, harden, or kawhi. What "weakness" exactly, is curry being shielded from? How did curry score as well as kd did in 2017 over double teams if he's "easier to exploit"?

Curry's "teammates cover for him", but his teammates are vastly more dependent on him then he is on them.

How does someone look at someone who
-> can shoot from anywhere
-> score comparably to the best scorers despite farmore defensive attention
-> succeeds with any collection of offensive teammates
-> score with or without the ball
-> pass at an elite level
-> supercharge average teammates' offence
and decide he should be dinged compared to his peers who
-> can't pass as well
-> can't dribble as well
-> haven't ever scored as well on their own
-> need the ball more than he does
-> don't space the floor as well
-> haven't ever contended without some of the playmaking in the league.

Curry would excel in any offensive system. I can't say the same for his peers.


Saying curry is optimized through a really good system =/= he is a system player

System doesent mean "he has good players around him and they play in a really good system" its "they play in a good system made possible through curry"

The system is as amazing as it is because of currys unique gravity, but at the same time curry isnt the type that you can give him the ball and expect something to happen without any action around him. Hes a good iso scorer but struggles more against really good perimeter defenders than most great iso scorers and gets alot of it from mismatches, but because of his playing style and frame and athleticism he doesnt have as many mismatches as someone like lebron

So when the system is limited or countered his team struggles, but through curry there are ways to break through these counters (like when they did the box and one on the warriors and shut them down)

The box and one should not have worked at all against the warriors, and there were ways to exploit it, but since curry is more of a decision making genius rather than a i can read everything genius, he needed his coach to make this read and adjust accordingly, and he didnt so they struggled

Its not a big knock on curry and i fully expect him to dominate next year with a bad offensive cast, but he does have limitations that have made him overall less effective in the playoffs. i still think hes the best or second best offensive player in the league, but he cant adjust the entire offense on the fly like some other players can, which is a really really select few


Thebox and 1 worked because, when it was used, curry had no other good shooters on the floor with him. Despite that he still hit 45. When he was with klay the warriors manged a 107 rating vs a defense that reduced their playoff opponent offence at rates rivaling any team not named the pistons.

There's a good argument for lebron being able to do okay under similar circumstances. But i really don't see who else you would expect to do better there offensively. Harden?

KD and kawhi are inferior playmakers and ball handlers. Lillard is worse playmaker and has an inferior interior game.

You could bring up harden but we saw him and the rockets offence do far worse against the jazz than ccurry did against the warriors.

Quite frankly, the notion that curry can't excel with the ball in his hands seems baseless.

He did admittedly struggle againstlebron james, otherwise he's been extremely effective vs double teams and hard traps, which are literally set because of how dangerous he is in isolation. The factof the matter was when choosing between the best mid range scorer of all time(kd) and curry, ty lue chose to double curry. And it's not because durant's a better passer or ballhandler(game 2 vs the clippers put that to rest)
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1019 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Jul 2, 2019 5:44 am

freethedevil wrote:Thebox and 1 worked because, when it was used, curry had no other good shooters on the floor with him. Despite that he still hit 45. When he was with klay the warriors manged a 107 rating vs a defense that reduced their playoff opponent offence at rates rivaling any team not named the pistons.


1. this is implying they played the box and one the whole game. They started playing it in the last 5 minutes and the warriors just stoped scoring completely. Saying he still hit 45 doesent make sense because he wasnt scoring when they started using it that game

2. you dont understand what im saying. Its not "the box and one counters curry" its "the coach had to make the team had to adjust" the box and one is one of the easiest zones to beat, the fact that they recognized it and couldnt attack it for 5 minutes is pretty suprising, but tbf kerr wouldnt have much experience with that

A few adjustments that could have been made

screen with the guy being man’d (Steph)

Cross screen on either bottom w/opposite bottom spaced out

Pin in on a reversal for a shooter being guarded by the back line big

Split cut flare w/Steph as either guy

Etc. cranjis never wrong

There's a good argument for lebron being able to do okay under similar circumstances. But i really don't see who else you would expect to do better there offensively. Harden?
KD and kawhi are inferior playmakers and ball handlers. Lillard is worse playmaker and has an inferior interior game.


Under those circumstances i feel KD, lebron, kawhi, and harden would have done better. Its mot a "whose a better offensive player" its "who would have done better in that situation"

Im not saying "oh yeah they figured curry out" but the warriors needed to make simple adjustments that they didnt make, and curry needed those adjustments to be made. Lebron makes them himself, KD is KD, harden is in a system where the box and one wouldnt have worked, kawhi is kawhi.

You could bring up harden but we saw him and the rockets offence do far worse against the jazz than ccurry did against the warriors.


Comparing what the jazz did and the box and one Zone doesent make sense. Harden does have weaknesses in his offensive game that can be exploited (reliance on foul hunting and a underwhelming inbetween game).

Quite frankly, the notion that curry can't excel with the ball in his hands seems baseless.


Didnt say that. He struggles to create offense on his own because his isolation scoring ability against non mismatches isnt as good as the other top 5 offensive players in the league, and he doesent have as many mismatches to exploit which is why he struggles against switchable bigs.

Yes, there are obviously ways for him to create mismatches but there are times when he struggles to create offense when he doesent get one, and when his three isnt on nuclear mode

He did admittedly struggle againstlebron james, otherwise he's been extremely effective vs double teams and hard traps, which are literally set because of how dangerous he is in isolation.


Wait what? If your talking about the way they guard him on screens its because you cant give him daylight in a screen cuz he'll just pullup.

The factof the matter was when choosing between the best mid range scorer of all time(kd) and curry, ty lue chose to double curry. And it's not because durant's a better passer or ballhandler(game 2 vs the clippers put that to rest)


Blitzing on a screen isnt doubling him in the same sense of if he gets the ball double off the catch. You pretty much have to blitz or switch against curry off of screens, i dont see how thats a negative lol

I dont understand what youre trying to argue. I never said "curry cant succeed with the ball in his hands" but there are clearly ways to stifle him that continue to stifle him unless his coach adjusts. There are very few players this isnt true for. I never said he was a system player or that he isnt good with the ball in his hands.

But in isolation if you dont have time to get a mismatch or even run any action and your going against, lets say a Butler on defense, out of harden, lebron, kawhi, durant, and curry, who are you giving the ball to?

Curry is someone that can make actions within a system better or create new reads/options because of the attention he brings. Thats not a negative.

At the same time his ability to score against non mismatches (even though he is normally able to create a mismatch anyw) isnt at the same level as the other top offensive players

I never said that offsets what else he brings to the table. But he isnt an amazing bailout option when the offense gets stagnant, compared to the other top 5 offensive players in the league. That doesent mean hes inferior because he brings more to the table.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1020 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jul 2, 2019 5:45 am

lebron3-14-3 wrote:What are we waiting for...


If this is in reference to voting, I was just coming in here to make sure people people knew I made a Voting thread. Please go right ahead!
In another world...
Your Longshoremen of Long Beach...

And now introducing...
The Song of Westeros...
LeBron James
John Stockton
Bobby Jones
Rudy Gobert
Khris Middleton
Connie Hawkins
Otto Porter
Ryan Anderson

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