2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1021 » by freethedevil » Tue Jul 2, 2019 6:36 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Thebox and 1 worked because, when it was used, curry had no other good shooters on the floor with him. Despite that he still hit 45. When he was with klay the warriors manged a 107 rating vs a defense that reduced their playoff opponent offence at rates rivaling any team not named the pistons.


1. this is implying they played the box and one the whole game. They started playing it in the last 5 minutes and the warriors just stoped scoring completely. Saying he still hit 45 doesent make sense because he wasnt scoring when they started using it that game

2. you dont understand what im saying. Its not "the box and one counters curry" its "the coach had to make the team had to adjust" the box and one is one of the easiest zones to beat, the fact that they recognized it and couldnt attack it for 5 minutes is pretty suprising, but tbf kerr wouldnt have much experience with that

A few adjustments that could have been made

screen with the guy being man’d (Steph)

Cross screen on either bottom w/opposite bottom spaced out

Pin in on a reversal for a shooter being guarded by the back line big

Split cut flare w/Steph as either guy

Etc. cranjis never wrong

There's a good argument for lebron being able to do okay under similar circumstances. But i really don't see who else you would expect to do better there offensively. Harden?
KD and kawhi are inferior playmakers and ball handlers. Lillard is worse playmaker and has an inferior interior game.


Under those circumstances i feel KD, lebron, kawhi, and harden would have done better. Its mot a "whose a better offensive player" its "who would have done better in that situation"

Im not saying "oh yeah they figured curry out" but the warriors needed to make simple adjustments that they didnt make, and curry needed those adjustments to be made. Lebron makes them himself, KD is KD, harden is in a system where the box and one wouldnt have worked, kawhi is kawhi.

You could bring up harden but we saw him and the rockets offence do far worse against the jazz than ccurry did against the warriors.


Comparing what the jazz did and the box and one Zone doesent make sense. Harden does have weaknesses in his offensive game that can be exploited (reliance on foul hunting and a underwhelming inbetween game).

Quite frankly, the notion that curry can't excel with the ball in his hands seems baseless.


Didnt say that. He struggles to create offense on his own because his isolation scoring ability against non mismatches isnt as good as the other top 5 offensive players in the league, and he doesent have as many mismatches to exploit which is why he struggles against switchable bigs.

Yes, there are obviously ways for him to create mismatches but there are times when he struggles to create offense when he doesent get one, and when his three isnt on nuclear mode

He did admittedly struggle againstlebron james, otherwise he's been extremely effective vs double teams and hard traps, which are literally set because of how dangerous he is in isolation.


Wait what? If your talking about the way they guard him on screens its because you cant give him daylight in a screen cuz he'll just pullup.

The factof the matter was when choosing between the best mid range scorer of all time(kd) and curry, ty lue chose to double curry. And it's not because durant's a better passer or ballhandler(game 2 vs the clippers put that to rest)


Blitzing on a screen isnt doubling him in the same sense of if he gets the ball double off the catch. You pretty much have to blitz or switch against curry off of screens, i dont see how thats a negative lol

I dont understand what youre trying to argue. I never said "curry cant succeed with the ball in his hands" but there are clearly ways to stifle him that continue to stifle him unless his coach adjusts. There are very few players this isnt true for. I never said he was a system player or that he isnt good with the ball in his hands.

But in isolation if you dont have time to get a mismatch or even run any action and your going against, lets say a Butler on defense, out of harden, lebron, kawhi, durant, and curry, who are you giving the ball to?

Curry is someone that can make actions within a system better or create new reads/options because of the attention he brings. Thats not a negative.

At the same time his ability to score against non mismatches (even though he is normally able to create a mismatch anyw) isnt at the same level as the other top offensive players

I never said that offsets what else he brings to the table. But he isnt an amazing bailout option when the offense gets stagnant, compared to the other top 5 offensive players in the league. That doesent mean hes inferior because he brings more to the table.

1. I'm confused here. Are you talking about game two? Yes the warriors and curry struggled there. But didn't they also use the box and 1 throughout game 3? It seems to me the difference here is the warriors hadn't adjusted to being without klay. Using those 5 minuites against the the game we had two days later seems like a bad example. I'm also not sure why you'e confident those adjustments are ones kd would make on his own adjustments here. If you replace curry with durant, Durant isn't as good of a pick and roll partner for green which would limit the effectiveness of his passing(which is important given he'd be initating the warrios offence now) and he isn't as good as passing so he's going to be forced into turnovers before we even get to the very specific "bailout" situation you're outlining. Who you'd want shooting vs a big is one thing. Who you want playing 48 minuites vs a box and one is an entirely different proposition. Ditto for kawhi. I think harden might actually be more effective vs that kind of thing than curry.

2. Are we calling "on-ball dominance" getting shots in the front court? Because yes, if you have no time on the shot clock on a big, then you're better off with the players you listed, but that really doesn't say much regarding "On-ball dominance". Getting the ball for a shot isn't really being "on the ball". Curry has twice as many back court touches as durant and holds the ball signifcantly longer per possesion. Who is a better option to pass the ball to in very specific situation that happens in a fraction of game time is a very different question than who would you rather have handle the ball. I'm fine with the assertion that you want other players over switchable bigs(cough lebron cough), but that isn't on ball. Recieiving a pass at the end of possession is actually an example of "off-ball play". You get that shot through "off-ball" movement. In terms of "on the ball dominance", bringing up the ball from half court, handling and deciding which plays to make, and then imitating said plays, kevin durant and kawhi don't do that. Durant didnt' do that in okc, and he doesn't(with a disastrous exception in game 2 vs the clippers) do that in gsw. Kawhi's raptors hit their stride when he deferred to lowry, van vleet, or gasol for that kind of role.

If anything, the players you should be bringing up here are the likes of westbrook, chris paul, lebron and harden. Durant and kawhi do not excel as on the ball dominant ball handlers. They excel as off the ball threats who you open the floor for by using playmakers like westbrook, lowry and curry.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1022 » by E-Balla » Tue Jul 2, 2019 12:57 pm

cpower wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
cpower wrote:RS:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Harden
3 George
4 Jokic
5 Curry


PS:
1.Curry
2.Kawhi
3.Antetokounmpo
4.Green
5.Lowry

Overall:
1 Antetokounmpo
2 Curry
3 Leonard
4 Jokic
5 Harden
6 Embiid


Why are you low on Hardens post-season?

why are you high on Harden's post-season? he was clearly not good. Him and Lowry would battle for the #5 but Lowry had an amazing final series so edge to him
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Even according to those numbers Harden was nearly twice as good as Lowry. Lowry just played more games than him (he can thank Kawhi for that).
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1023 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Jul 2, 2019 1:31 pm

freethedevil wrote:1. I'm confused here. Are you talking about game two? Yes the warriors and curry struggled there. But didn't they also use the box and 1 throughout game 3? It seems to me the difference here is the warriors hadn't adjusted to being without klay. Using those 5 minuites against the the game we had two days later seems like a bad example.


Got the games mixed up but they didn’t use it throughout the game, they used it in spurts And generally it was really effective because the warriors didn’t attack it the right way

I'm also not sure why you'e confident those adjustments are ones kd would make on his own adjustments here.


Spoiler:
screen with the guy being man’d (Steph)
Cross screen on either bottom w/opposite bottom spaced out
Pin in on a reversal for a shooter being guarded by the back line big
Split cut flare w/Steph as either guy
Etc. cranjis never wrong


You don’t understand the point.

CURRY DOESENT MAKE THE ADJUSTMENTS, KERR SHOULD HAVE MADE THE ADJUSTMENT, THIS IS *NOT* A KNOCK ON CURRY

Rather, it’s curry not being great at attacking non mismatches compared to other players that mean adjustments have to be made in situations like this. Either way the coach should make adjustments to exploit one of the easiest zones to beat, but if the coach isn’t able to make those adjustments a “rise above and shoot” iso player is better than the “inch of daylight” iso player.

If you replace curry with durant, Durant isn't as good of a pick and roll partner for green which would limit the effectiveness of his passing(which is important given he'd be initating the warrios offence now) and he isn't as good as passing so he's going to be forced into turnovers before we even get to the very specific "bailout" situation you're outlining. Who you'd want shooting vs a big is one thing. Who you want playing 48 minuites vs a box and one is an entirely different proposition. Ditto for kawhi. I think harden might actually be more effective vs that kind of thing than curry.


The box and one limited these scoring actions for the warriors which made them less effective, however while it takes away these actions it creates new weaknesses in the defense that are exploitable, which Kerr didn’t take advantage of.

Playing against a box and one is not a challenge for he player it’s a challenge for the coach to adjust. However, because they couldn’t adjust they had to bailout a lot which curry isn’t great at, and other top players are better at despite being less impactful on offense overall



2. Are we calling "on-ball dominance" getting shots in the front court? Because yes, if you have no time on the shot clock on a big, then you're better off with the players you listed, but that really doesn't say much regarding "On-ball dominance". Getting the ball for a shot isn't really being "on the ball". Curry has twice as many back court touches as durant and holds the ball signifcantly longer per possesion. Who is a better option to pass the ball to in very specific situation that happens in a fraction of game time is a very different question than who would you rather have handle the ball.


What r u responding to lmao

I'm fine with the assertion that you want other players over switchable bigs(cough lebron cough), but that isn't on ball. Recieiving a pass at the end of possession is actually an example of "off-ball play". You get that shot through "off-ball" movement.


No, that’s receiving the ball at the end of an action or break off point of a set. Getting the ball to the best iso scorer at the end of a broken possession to call create a shot is a bailout option

In terms of "on the ball dominance", bringing up the ball from half court, handling and deciding which plays to make, and then imitating said plays, kevin durant and kawhi don't do that. Durant didnt' do that in okc, and he doesn't(with a disastrous exception in game 2 vs the clippers) do that in gsw. Kawhi's raptors hit their stride when he deferred to lowry, van vleet, or gasol for that kind of role.


I mean the coach calls the plays a good portion of the time but it’s not like the guard tells everyone where to be at what time, it’s a set play they constantly practice and everyone has to be in motion. Every player within the play responsible for making reads has the responsibility to make the correct read. Obv the point guard/initiator will usually make more reads but that isn’t as true as people think.

If anything, the players you should be bringing up here are the likes of westbrook, chris paul, lebron and harden. Durant and kawhi do not excel as on the ball dominant ball handlers. They excel as off the ball threats who you open the floor for by using playmakers like westbrook, lowry and curry.


My arguement isn’t who can run an offense, who can orchestrate an offense, etc.

My argument is that when possessions break down and there isn’t time to run an action to get a mismatch or get a easy score, a situation that happens much more in the playoffs, curry isn’t as good as some of the other top 5 offensive players in the league

That’s literally it. It’s not me saying he’s worse than them. If you’re saying I’m talking about a specific situation and curry is better at other things/overall then whatever because I’m not disagreeing, but this situation happens a lot in the playoffs compared to the RS
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1024 » by freethedevil » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:42 am

Since we're not allowed to talk about it in the poy thread, i decided 'd bring it up here.

Jaivl wrote:1. James Harden
GOAT tier offensive performance in the regular season. Banged a +109 ORtg against the best defensive backcourt duo + DPOY + best overall defense in the league in Utah, which used unprecedented tactics against him (only Curry suffered something similar). Other than Green, clearly outplayed everyone on the GSW series.

The rockets offensive rating was heavily inflated due to the first two games where the jazz were figuring out the bucks scheme. When they figured it out from game 3 onwards, the rockets offence turned anemic averaging around 100 points. Also utah being "the best overall defence" is really only a result of the bucks coasting and tor's load management. Torono posted an atg playoff defence that ison the level of any defence not named the pistons. The bucks posted a similar quality defence. The jazz were using the bucks scheme with signifcantly inferior help personell minus gobert. Using that series as an argument for harden as #1 seems like a stretch. Especially since he didn't play well(relatively speaking) and his team's offence was terrible when the jazz knew what they were doing.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1025 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:21 pm

Hey folks, voting results are up in the other thread.

I've also update the original RPOY project page here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743

The tallies are out of date because I got lazy once semi-sentient made his site. With the site down it would be good to put in some work to have the tallies presented nicely. I'm not in a place where I want to put more time into it, but if folks are interested in putting in that time and taking over the reins for this project, I'm open to it.
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