2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[bondom34]

Dirk played in 76 playoff games before the GSW debacle. Lebron played in 71 before Dallas. Maybe no one has had the personnel to slow Giannis but just saying “Stevens is a good coach and he didn’t do it” is reductive and too simple.

Greats being slowed down by playoff scheme is a rule in NBA history. There’s no one it hasn’t happened to.

But your claim was that

I struggle to believe some playoff coach won’t take a lot off the table for him

So if this happens to everyone, including the best, then why does it suddenly matter? We've seen it happen to Lebron when he was the best in the NBA. We've seen it to Durant, and Harden, even Curry getting slowed down. But Giannis hasn't shown it yet and the claim is that because it probably will he's not the best.

Because Giannis is younger, less experienced, and has a less diverse offensive game than all those guys. Part of what made LeBron so good in 17 and 18 was that defenses could throw nothing at him he hadn’t seen before. There’s a certain confidence with knowing that every single coverage you can see you ahve an answer to. The Bucks have been successful by making sure the only coverage Giannis sees is one on one single coverage. What if teams are able to build a wall against him? Can he hit the mid range shot consistently? What fitness hey send very late help to trap and double? Does he have the vision to make those passes consistently? We just don’t know.

Last year Philly looked unbeatable against Miami and then completely fell apart against Boston. Experience wins in the NBA.

But we saw him last year shoot 47% from 10-16 feet, and 39% from 16-the 3 point line. He's also been doubled a good amount, and has shown the ability to score in the playoffs.

I'm not sure why you downgrade him on something you expect to happen that hasn't yet.

[Dr Spaceman]

But your claim was that



So if this happens to everyone, including the best, then why does it suddenly matter? We've seen it happen to Lebron when he was the best in the NBA. We've seen it to Durant, and Harden, even Curry getting slowed down. But Giannis hasn't shown it yet and the claim is that because it probably will he's not the best.

Because Giannis is younger, less experienced, and has a less diverse offensive game than all those guys. Part of what made LeBron so good in 17 and 18 was that defenses could throw nothing at him he hadn’t seen before. There’s a certain confidence with knowing that every single coverage you can see you ahve an answer to. The Bucks have been successful by making sure the only coverage Giannis sees is one on one single coverage. What if teams are able to build a wall against him? Can he hit the mid range shot consistently? What fitness hey send very late help to trap and double? Does he have the vision to make those passes consistently? We just don’t know.

Last year Philly looked unbeatable against Miami and then completely fell apart against Boston. Experience wins in the NBA.

But we saw him last year shoot 47% from 10-16 feet, and 39% from 16-the 3 point line. He's also been doubled a good amount, and has shown the ability to score in the playoffs.

I'm not sure why you downgrade him on something you expect to happen that hasn't yet.

I don’t, I’m downgrading him because his skill set is very lacking compared to every other great offensive player in the league. If he turns out to be so dominant that it doesn’t matter I will reconsider but yeah, it matters to me that the guy cannot shoot away from the rim and isn’t an expert passer/ball handler.

And no, I’m not comfortable using him shooting 10% over his career norms in one playoff series as evidence he’s figured it out. He got hot from mid-range, there is 0 reason to think that performance is repeatable.

[bondom34]

Because Giannis is younger, less experienced, and has a less diverse offensive game than all those guys. Part of what made LeBron so good in 17 and 18 was that defenses could throw nothing at him he hadn’t seen before. There’s a certain confidence with knowing that every single coverage you can see you ahve an answer to. The Bucks have been successful by making sure the only coverage Giannis sees is one on one single coverage. What if teams are able to build a wall against him? Can he hit the mid range shot consistently? What fitness hey send very late help to trap and double? Does he have the vision to make those passes consistently? We just don’t know.

Last year Philly looked unbeatable against Miami and then completely fell apart against Boston. Experience wins in the NBA.

But we saw him last year shoot 47% from 10-16 feet, and 39% from 16-the 3 point line. He's also been doubled a good amount, and has shown the ability to score in the playoffs.

I'm not sure why you downgrade him on something you expect to happen that hasn't yet.

I don’t, I’m downgrading him because his skill set is very lacking compared to every other great offensive player in the league. If he turns out to be so dominant that it doesn’t matter I will reconsider but yeah, it matters to me that the guy cannot shoot away from the rim and isn’t an expert passer/ball handler.

And no, I’m not comfortable using him shooting 10% over his career norms in one playoff series as evidence he’s figured it out. He got hot from mid-range, there is 0 reason to think that performance is repeatable.

Youre also nkt looking at the defensive advantage he has over any others inconsideration.

And this year, in a much larger sample, he's shooting 34 and 41 percent from those ranges, so seems he's improved. But he's the best defender of anyone in consideration by a decent margin, and he's been lethal on offense for a while now, playoffs or not. I'm not seeing kuch to doubt, at least no more than I would Durant, Curry, or Harden as overall players.

[Ballerhogger]

I got harden as my POY over Ginnias but Ginnias is my mvp ...... simply put come playoff time harden has harder road and weaker cast . Also without harden this year your looking at non playoff team . That said Giannis has the narrative and record to get his first mvp . It should be more difficult to repeat as mvp winner. Playoffs can change my opinion though

[truly]

At this point Giannis is looking as good as any player I've ever seen live including Lebron in 09 and Shaq in 01. It's that level of dominance in all ways.

I think that is waaaaaaaay jumping the gun. He reminds me more of 07 baby Lebron who’d just use his first step to blow by anyone and everyone, except here it’s his strength he relies on rather than explosion.

Still people don’t give enough credit to how good his cast is. They remind me of a souped-up version of that team Dwight took to the Finals, just really good shooting and playmaking and defense all up and down the roster and we’ll ahead of their time in terms of some concepts they implement. Any player would drool over having a roster like this built around them.

Giannis Lacks the diversity in his game that peak Lebron had. I mean Giannis can’t even really run a pick and roll due to his lack of shooting. It’s possible no one will be able to stop him but lots of teams in the East have size right now.

At this point, I would be far more concerned about the Bucks' defense than their offense. Broadly speaking, we already know that one dominant inside presence surrounded by four shooters can set the world on fire. It's not a strategy that's new and unproven, and last season we saw both Giannis and Milwaukee as a team hold up just fine against Boston's top-rated defense.

On the other side of the ball, however, the Bucks give up the most 3's in the league and are somehow still the #1 defense. That's unprecedented, and I think it's fair to question if they might get absolutely lit up if an opponent gets hot for one playoff series.

To answer this,the Bucks give up a lot of 3's but they don't give them to good shooters.Take the Philly game for example.They gave 13 3s to Embiid but only 6 total to JJ and Harris.

I think there was a recent article on cleaning the glass about it.

[AussieBuck]

He had 26 a game on .62 TS last year in the playoffs, I'm not sure he has anything to prove.

Of course He does. They always do. Teams have found ways to slow peak LeBron, peak Curry, peak Dirk, peak Kobe peak everyone. Someone will find a technique that is effective against him whether that is putting a 7 foot brute like Baynes or Gasol on him or some other technique but until we know how he counters that it is an open question.

I really really don’t like the attitude of assuming these guys are finished products in their early to mid 20s, LeBron was not a finished product until age 33 offensively. Hell Chris Paul IMO was not a finished product offensively until 31 or 32 IMO.

Teams have cycled through playing different sized guys on Giannis. Gasol hasn't been able to defend him for 4 years. Baynes is on posters on Giannis fan's walls everywhere. He just scored 52 on Embiid and had 40+ and played Rudy Gobert off the court on their last matchup. Forwards are too small, Centers are too slow.

[MelbourneBuck]

Giannis' shooting has improved a bit. He's not as hesitant to shoot now and his results are getting better but he's still working his way towards average. His FG% within 5ft though is like 70% or something while leading the league in attempts despite everyone in the building knowing what he wants to do. Even if he was a 38% 3PT shooter it wouldn't change how he's defended very much.

I do think his offensive game gets a bit underrated due to his lack of shooting. He's good in the pick and roll either as the ball hander or roll man but admittedly we don't run it much. He's above average in the post, on isolations and cuts and is very good driving to the basket obviously. His passing is good. Probably a bit mechanical for lack of a better word but still effective.

He's seen a few different looks this year too. Most effective I've seen at stopping him individually is all out walling off the paint but that creates a different problem when he has 4 shooters around him. AussieBuck is spot on with the centres. Thats already been tried repeatedly and it's not a viable strategy.

[eminence]

Any more thoughts on DPOY? Jazz, Bucks, Thunder, Pacers appear to be finishing up the season a step above the rest of the league defensively (though the Grizzlies, Raptors, Celtics, Magic, and Heat could all also be described as good defenses).

[E-Balla]

Any more thoughts on DPOY? Jazz, Bucks, Thunder, Pacers appear to be finishing up the season a step above the rest of the league defensively (though the Grizzlies, Raptors, Celtics, Magic, and Heat could all also be described as good defenses).

Thought I'd give it to Turner but now I'm thinking Giannis is probably in the lead. Gobert will probably end up winning it but this year I think his defense has been slightly worse than usual (or to be more accurate his impact has been blunted thanks to Favors having a career year on defense, giving him more energy to devote to his offense).

I do think those 3 have separated themselves from the pack though (sorry PG13 and Siakam).

[MelbourneBuck]

Any more thoughts on DPOY? Jazz, Bucks, Thunder, Pacers appear to be finishing up the season a step above the rest of the league defensively (though the Grizzlies, Raptors, Celtics, Magic, and Heat could all also be described as good defenses).

I was all in on George but I'm not so sure anymore. Probably still between him, Gobert and Giannis for me at this stage but it doesn't feel like there's been a real standout this year. Turner's mins are a little lower than I'd like. Horford probably should've been in these discussions more over the years but that time has likly passed.

[HeartBreakKid]

At the moment my DPOY ballot would probably be

1) Gobert
2) Giannis
3) George

[ShotCreator]

Gobert is just clearly better than Giannis on defense.

He’s still drastically lowering opp rim FGA and the results still show.

Only 15-17 Draymond has been on his level as a rim protector in this era.

[eminence]

100% agreed on Favors being a stud as well.

Gobert + Favors 102.9 (690 minutes)
Gobert - Favors 106.9 (1568 minutes)
Favors - Gobert 106.5 (948 minutes)
Neither 117.5 (213 minutes)

With some help from Joe of course.

[E-Balla]

100% agreed on Favors being a stud as well.

Gobert + Favors 102.9 (690 minutes)
Gobert - Favors 106.9 (1568 minutes)
Favors - Gobert 106.5 (948 minutes)
Neither 117.5 (213 minutes)

With some help from Joe of course.

Yeah Joe is killer also. Their whole frontcourt is killing it. Then of course Rubio and Mitchell make any top 5 backcourt defensive tandem lists. Honestly they should be way better than they are on that end now that I think about it.

[eminence]

100% agreed on Favors being a stud as well.

Gobert + Favors 102.9 (690 minutes)
Gobert - Favors 106.9 (1568 minutes)
Favors - Gobert 106.5 (948 minutes)
Neither 117.5 (213 minutes)

With some help from Joe of course.

Yeah Joe is killer also. Their whole frontcourt is killing it. Then of course Rubio and Mitchell make any top 5 backcourt defensive tandem lists. Honestly they should be way better than they are on that end now that I think about it.

Hard to quantify, but Rubio's impressed me a lot less than he has in the past.

[E-Balla]

100% agreed on Favors being a stud as well.

Gobert + Favors 102.9 (690 minutes)
Gobert - Favors 106.9 (1568 minutes)
Favors - Gobert 106.5 (948 minutes)
Neither 117.5 (213 minutes)

With some help from Joe of course.

Yeah Joe is killer also. Their whole frontcourt is killing it. Then of course Rubio and Mitchell make any top 5 backcourt defensive tandem lists. Honestly they should be way better than they are on that end now that I think about it.

Hard to quantify, but Rubio's impressed me a lot less than he has in the past.

True but look around the league. Not too much competition. Most teams have either 2 bad defenders or one mediocre defender and a good/great one to make up for it.

[GSP]

Any more thoughts on DPOY? Jazz, Bucks, Thunder, Pacers appear to be finishing up the season a step above the rest of the league defensively (though the Grizzlies, Raptors, Celtics, Magic, and Heat could all also be described as good defenses).

I was all in on George but I'm not so sure anymore. Probably still between him, Gobert and Giannis for me at this stage but it doesn't feel like there's been a real standout this year. Turner's mins are a little lower than I'd like. Horford probably should've been in these discussions more over the years but that time has likly passed.

Horford taken a clear step back defensively. He shouldnt be anywhere near Dpoy convos for this season

[GSP]

Havent seen many Utah games but when i do its always their frontcourt doing damage defensively. Their backcourt is mediocre on that end as are most teams starting guards on defense

[Dr Spaceman]

Maybe Harden will get the MVP after all...

[ardee]

Giannis actually managing to pull off MVP and DPoY in the same year would be bonkers.