2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[GSP]

Giannis is clearly Poy. Its not even close at this point and the gap is prolly gonna be even larger by the time the playoffs are over

the new era is officially here

[Colbinii]

Giannis is clearly Poy. Its not even close at this point and the gap is prolly gonna be even larger by the time the playoffs are over

the new era is officially here

We are all witnesses.

Most Crow I will ever eat resides right here

Giannis has quickly become the most overrated prospect in the NBA. He is extremely Raw, but has all of the measurables. A player as Raw as him will never round off a complete skill set and will be lucky to have one or two basketball skills that end up in the elite department outside of measurables/athleticism.

This post had 10 and-1s by the way, circa 2014.

[HeartBreakKid]

Why is it so clear? Sure, Leonard's numbers have taken a ding going up against the best defense - but he's still out playing Giannis in just about every game.

If your criteria is best player, I really don't see how Giannis is better than Leonard. More valuable because of games played I can buy, better - nah...

[GSP]

Why is it so clear? Sure, Leonard's numbers have taken a ding going up against the best defense - but he's still out playing Giannis in just about every game.

If your criteria is best player, I really don't see how Giannis is better than Leonard. More valuable because of games played I can buy, better - nah...

Giannis was better in games 1 and 2.......He was way better last game unless u just look at points scored. His defense has been on a far higher level than Kawhi has ever been capable of and hes a far better passer/playmaker too. Kawhis defense was pretty bad in game 2

Giannis was really bad offensively in game 3 tho even tho his defense/rebounding was dominant. This is the 1st game Kawhis outplayed him

[HeartBreakKid]

Why is it so clear? Sure, Leonard's numbers have taken a ding going up against the best defense - but he's still out playing Giannis in just about every game.

If your criteria is best player, I really don't see how Giannis is better than Leonard. More valuable because of games played I can buy, better - nah...

Giannis was better in games 1 and 2.......He was way better last game unless u just look at points scored. His defense has been on a far higher level than Kawhi has ever been capable of and hes a far better passer/playmaker too. Kawhis defense was pretty bad in game 2

Giannis was really bad offensively in game 3 tho even tho his defense/rebounding was dominant. This is the 1st game Kawhis outplayed him

Well, Leonard is a scorer so why wouldn't I look at his scoring? The Raptors do not lack ball handlers and passers.

Passing isn't Leonard's game, it's not like Giannis does not have gaping holes either. Leonard provides spacing and is a better offball player - he can also isolate from just about anywhere on the court which on the Raptors he needs because his roleplayers don't scale as well as Milwaukee's. When you consider Leonard is going up against a defense that is 2 points better than his own, his efficiency/volume/turnovers is not bad.

Was his defense really worse in game 1? I honestly do not recall thinking that.

[Joey Wheeler]

Yeah, I don't know how you can conclude Giannis is the best from these playoffs. Kawhi has clearly been better throughout the Eastern playoffs and in this series

[clyde21]

1- Giannis
2- Kawhi
3- Jokic
4- Harden

after that it's pretty convoluted

[TheGOATRises007]

I think Leonard has been the best player in the playoffs, but Giannis can still sway me to pick him.

[Dupp]

Yeah, I don't know how you can conclude Giannis is the best from these playoffs. Kawhi has clearly been better throughout the Eastern playoffs and in this series

How’s he clearly been better this series ?

[MelbourneBuck]

Yeah, I don't know how you can conclude Giannis is the best from these playoffs. Kawhi has clearly been better throughout the Eastern playoffs and in this series

Kawhi's been the better scorer and that carries a fair bit of weight but he hasn't been clearly better. Giannis has been pretty inefficient but this is the only game I'd consider poor offensively and his passing, rebounding, defense have all been better than Kawhi's. His defense in particular has been ridiculous and Kawhi, as good as he can be, can't get even approach the impact Giannis has on a teams offense.

[No-more-rings]

My top 5 would probably be this for now. Kind of hard to see it changing too, maybe Curry can move up a spot or 2, I just think Kawhi missing like 20 games would make it nearly impossible to jump ahead of Giannis even if he has been a little better in the playoffs.

1. Giannis
2. Kawhi
3. Harden
4. Jokic
5. Curry

HM: KD, Paul George, Damian Lillard

[Doctor MJ]

How I'm seeing candidates right now:

Giannis - the leader by a good margin
Harden - basically eliminated from the top spot, and may fall, but still clinging to the 2nd spot.
Kawhi - there's a level of respect for him now that he's never had before and some momentum potentially push him past Harden. Were he to lead Toronto to the title, he'd be a lock for #1.
Steph - is starting to become a strong threat to take the #1 spot, but only if he finishes the finals well.
Durant - was a serious #1 candidate, now that's dead and he could fall out of the top 5...but it's hard to see him below the guys below.

Lillard - we all love him and he's "top 5 worthy", but once again, unlikely he'll end up there unless Portland makes itself look like a serious challenger to GS.
Jokic - I'm so happy with his playoff run...but can I really put him ahead of Durant? Maybe, but not all that likely.
Draymond - he's had another legacy-shaping post-season and it's actually pretty plausible to rank him ahead of Durant depending on how the Warrior season finishes.
Embiid - another jaw-dropping year where his potential for impact seems north of anyone else in the league, but in the end I don't see him as Top 5 POY.
George - Top 3 MVP candidate and basically a lock for Top 10 POY, but losing easily in the first round to a team that isn't a contender stings.

[Doctor MJ]

My top 5 would probably be this for now. Kind of hard to see it changing too, maybe Curry can move up a spot or 2, I just think Kawhi missing like 20 games would make it nearly impossible to jump ahead of Giannis even if he has been a little better in the playoffs.

If Kawhi outplays Giannis and Toronto beats Milwaukee, I think Kawhi will get the nod over Giannis without anyone really caring about the regular season "3 day weekends" Kawhi took.

Bigger implication? If Kawhi were to lead Toronto to the title this year, the NBA would panic that all the other stars would sit out a similar number of games...because they would now feel foolish not to. The cool part of that is it might be the thing that gets the NBA to seriously consider reducing the number of regular season games.

[Joey Wheeler]

Yeah, I don't know how you can conclude Giannis is the best from these playoffs. Kawhi has clearly been better throughout the Eastern playoffs and in this series

How’s he clearly been better this series ?

Yeah, I don't know how you can conclude Giannis is the best from these playoffs. Kawhi has clearly been better throughout the Eastern playoffs and in this series

Kawhi's been the better scorer and that carries a fair bit of weight but he hasn't been clearly better. Giannis has been pretty inefficient but this is the only game I'd consider poor offensively and his passing, rebounding, defense have all been better than Kawhi's. His defense in particular has been ridiculous and Kawhi, as good as he can be, can't get even approach the impact Giannis has on a teams offense.

His scoring has been incredible. I think only Durant is above him in that regard at the moment and it's not by much. He can score on a high volume and efficiency and is pretty much unstoppable once he gets to his spots. He's also got almost Jordan-like turnover economy considering how much he handles the ball. When you consider both the scoring and turnover economy, there's a great case for Kawhi as the best offensive player in these playoffs. He's certainly clearly above Giannis on offense; Giannis is nowhere near as polished on that end and isn't really a scoring threat outside the paint.

Defensively Kawhi has been excellent too and he's actually been taking on Giannis (successfully) far more than the other way round. Giannis is still better on defense, but the gap is much smaller than on offense.

[Doctor MJ]

We're comparing competitive series to completely uncompetitive series. We're comparing a trend only seen in the playoffs during 9 uncompetitive games to one some posters (ie - me) have been talking about for 3 years and have seen in the playoffs and regular season.

I'll be fair here, I hate using the combo of on and off (especially off), and i've been a vocal critic for a while now, so i wont be disingenuous and build an argument around that now.

But to your point, if Giannis' series to this point have been uncompetitive, why are we talking about how much better he makes the offense to begin with? That seems like a hasty conclusion to draw. That's been my lone criticism of Giannis so far, I haven't seen this iteration of the Bucks really tested yet.

If this series ends up being similiar to the Philly/Toronto one (low scoring, slower pace), and the Raptors win, does that change your stance on either player?

The Celtics stylistically were one of the worst matchups for the Bucks, Horford is one of the best Giannis defenders in the league, and both the Bucks & Giannis got their asses handed to them in game 1. They responded by sweeping the rest of the series and Giannis was outstanding.

It just feels like the criticism is somewhat penalizing Giannis and the Bucks for responding *too* well to getting tested.

Glad you point this out.

One of the big questions I had going into the post-season was how Giannis & the Bucks would handle Horford & the Celtic defense. After Game 1 I thought "Yep, that was the fear, now let's see if the Bucks can figure it out."

They figured it out so thoroughly after that we saw the Celtics as not a serious threat, but this is largely the same crew that made Simmons & Embiid look like amateurs last year. Impressed me a lot that Giannis & co could do that.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'd put Jokic over Harden to be honest.. his boxscore undermines how much he carries a team that isn't that talented. I don't think any of the starters on the nuggets are all that great, including jamal murray - the rockets cast is much better when they're healthy.

But Jokic did it all, and his game translated fine in the playoffs albeit he wasn't up against great defenses.

My top 6 in some order is Curry, Durant, Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Leonard.

i'm still not comfortable to how these awards are directly lead by win bias. why can't someone who gets eliminated in the 2nd round be the player of the year? i'm just not seeing how the year to year results aren't any different from the results we would get if this were in the general section. I especially saw this in the retro player of the year, if you're not a finalist or an official mvp (usually when theres lack of multiple superstars in the finals) then theres no chance it seems.

[Colbinii]

1- Giannis
2- Kawhi
3- Jokic
4- Harden

after that it's pretty convoluted

I think Curry is clearly 5th. Who would you argue over him?

A guy who injured his shoulder with 1 month left and was a big reason his team couldn't beat a pretender in the first round?

[Colbinii]

I'd put Jokic over Harden to be honest.. his boxscore undermines how much he carries a team that isn't that talented. I don't think any of the starters on the nuggets are all that great, including jamal murray - the rockets cast is much better when they're healthy.

But Jokic did it all, and his game translated fine in the playoffs albeit he wasn't up against great defenses.

My top 6 in some order is Curry, Durant, Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Leonard.

i'm still not comfortable to how these awards are directly lead by win bias. why can't someone who gets eliminated in the 2nd round be the player of the year? i'm just not seeing how the year to year results aren't any different from the results we would get if this were in the general section. I especially saw this in the retro player of the year, if you're not a finalist or an official mvp (usually when theres lack of multiple superstars in the finals) then theres no chance it seems.

KG was POY from 02-05, of course they can get eliminated early...

[HeartBreakKid]

I'd put Jokic over Harden to be honest.. his boxscore undermines how much he carries a team that isn't that talented. I don't think any of the starters on the nuggets are all that great, including jamal murray - the rockets cast is much better when they're healthy.

But Jokic did it all, and his game translated fine in the playoffs albeit he wasn't up against great defenses.

My top 6 in some order is Curry, Durant, Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Leonard.

i'm still not comfortable to how these awards are directly lead by win bias. why can't someone who gets eliminated in the 2nd round be the player of the year? i'm just not seeing how the year to year results aren't any different from the results we would get if this were in the general section. I especially saw this in the retro player of the year, if you're not a finalist or an official mvp (usually when theres lack of multiple superstars in the finals) then theres no chance it seems.

KG was POY from 02-05, of course they can get eliminated early...

I am talking about who the board selects as POY, not an individuals ballot. KG was only dubbed (R)POY in 2004, which is pretty atypical. Shaq was POY in 02, and Duncan was POY in 03, 05 - again, if you had this poll in the gen boards, it'd pretty much go exactly like that. It's really ring oriented, we've seen post for weeks now saying player A can be POY if they get this far or win a ring, that seems like win bias to me (if it isn't, then what is it?).

[Doctor MJ]

I'd put Jokic over Harden to be honest.. his boxscore undermines how much he carries a team that isn't that talented. I don't think any of the starters on the nuggets are all that great, including jamal murray - the rockets cast is much better when they're healthy.

But Jokic did it all, and his game translated fine in the playoffs albeit he wasn't up against great defenses.

My top 6 in some order is Curry, Durant, Harden, Giannis, Jokic and Leonard.

i'm still not comfortable to how these awards are directly lead by win bias. why can't someone who gets eliminated in the 2nd round be the player of the year? i'm just not seeing how the year to year results aren't any different from the results we would get if this were in the general section. I especially saw this in the retro player of the year, if you're not a finalist or an official mvp (usually when theres lack of multiple superstars in the finals) then theres no chance it seems.

Love the impassioned case for Jokic. He’s been my favorite player to watch since Durant went to Oakland. Would certainly feel positive giving him some official love.

I like that you’re not comfortable with the win bias. That’s a good thing you’re actively trying to combat that.

I think what I’d acknowledge is that any season award gets influence by season narrative, and aside from the need to try to check that, I’d emphasize the importance of not getting chained to MVP/POY accolade consideration when actually ranking careers.

Do I think that Garnett had a great case for POY in 2006? No.

Do I hold it against Garnett that he was out of the POY the running in during a stretch of his prime when I think he could have been a serious contender on another team? Also no.

Back to POY: I’m try to tone it down with the narrative stuff.


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