2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#961 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:57 am

freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:


Well let's be fair here, scalability aisde, he's been the offensive foundation for this team. The defensive foundation has been draymond green whose ranked as top 25 in each of the last 5 playoffs and a one of a kind defender. I don't know that you could afford to run things small as much as kerr does offensively if you didn't have a draymond green defensively.

These last 3 seasons, the hamptons 5 outscores has outscored opponents by 23 points per 100 poss. Just Curry+Green with smals has outscored opponent by 22 points per 100 possesion. Conceding that portability isn't a thing defensively, the warriors ability to run the small ball lineups curry excels in offensively is heavily dependent on green's defensive presence. And that doesn't even take into account green is one of the best passers in the league.

We rave about how good curry is without offensive weapons like durant and klay, but what happens if you take out draymond green?


All good things to bring up. Green regularly makes my Top 10 POY list. I think very highly of him. I do think Curry is more special though.

freethedevil wrote:I recall that el mcgee wasn't that impressed with 2017 lebron carrying an offence that had a higher o rating than the warriors, largely because he thought that was only possible due to the team's defensive failings.


Noted, but it's not really clear to me why you included this as a segue between Curry & Giannis. The Warriors have been able to be great on defense with Curry so you certainly can't argue that Curry necessitates his team play poor defense.

freethedevil wrote:And this I think, aside from his metrics, might be giannis's strongest qualitative argument as poy. For all of his holes offensively, Giannis is the bucks primary playmaker, scorer and is their defensive anchor, And in 2019 the bucks have been elite offensively historically great defensively, and posted an all time top 30 srs in the regular season. In the playoffs, while giannis's limitations as a playmaker were exposed, he still was the focal point, the engine and the anchor for a team that had a, per el mcgee, "razor thin series" vs the champs.

I don't think there's really anyone else in the league who does so much for his team. And, given how dominant the bucks looked untill nurse's adjustments in game 3 pioneering a new scheme with a defence el mcgee ranked #5 all time among playoff teams, I'm not convinced the warriors could have handled them, even at full strength.


I don't think there's any doubt that Giannis' defense counts for a lot.

Speaking in the other direction though - while noting that Giannis is #1 on my list - the thing about being an alpha is that when abruptly you are less effective, you can quickly go from highly positive to actually negative impact. So while you can still look at Giannis and say "He's still scoring X points", if the reality is that the offense isn't working playing this way, it's quite likely that there's another approach that would work better which reduced Giannis to a smaller role.

I'm not going so far, obviously, to have a quantized penalty for Giannis due to this, but it's something that can absolutely happen, and when I watched Giannis later in that series, it really struck me all that he could not do that the Bucks were essentially relying on him to do by virtue of giving him this level of primacy.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#962 » by Joey Wheeler » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:58 am

Giannis was outstanding all year, but he kinda got exposed in that series vs Toronto, in a similar way Harden and Curry are every year in the playoffs. Really can't put him #1.

Kawhi on Giannis was the key adjustment in that series; not only was Giannis unable to consistently attack, but since he isn't an off ball threat Kawhi was free to help off him and blow the Bucks offensive sets. Pretty much all of the Raptors key runs to turn the series around were built on Kawhi wrecking havoc defensively because he could help off Giannis with no consequences.

Feels kinda unfair to put so much stock in one series when Giannis was so dominant all year, but the playoffs are a different animal that reveal everything and that trend is only increasing with the best player coasting more than more during the RS. Regular season MVP exposed to one degree or another in the playoffs has basically been a yearly theme since Lebron won his last MVP.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#963 » by freethedevil » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:11 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Noted, but it's not really clear to me why you included this as a segue between Curry & Giannis. The Warriors have been able to be great on defense with Curry so you certainly can't argue that Curry necessitates his team play poor defense.



My point being that I think draymond green has a lot more to do with the defence than curry does. If we took out one of the most unqiue players in the game and switching him with a more ordinary anchor, curry wouldn't be able to play small as much as that would end up costing them on the other end. What I'm trying to say here is that curry's offense may be somwehat dependent on green's nigh unparalleled defensive capability.

the thing about being an alpha is that when abruptly you are less effective, you can quickly go from highly positive to actually negative impact

Well, for what it's worth, Giannis was still a +16 vs the raptors when he was on the court. That said, I think it's worth looking into what exactly giannis's affect on the offense was when he entered the court. Per mcgee he still created "tons of opportunities" for his teammates and i recall stretches where walls, his screens, or his kickouts created 4-5 open looks in a row. There were off course strecthes where he turned the ball over and missed good looks but i didn't really get the impression he had a negative impact on his team.

I think the big question this series asks is just how well can giannis play with a secondary playmaker. Would it open up giannis's game by preventing walls or would he be less impactful?
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#964 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:14 am

I don't think I have a ballot, but I'll submit my top 5/6

1. Kawhi - I weigh playoffs heavily and I think he was the best player in the playoffs. It's been forgotten a bit, but he was incredible vs the Sixers. He tailed it off a bit towards the end of the playoffs, but he was still the best player for me. His offensive game is incredible now(bar his playmaking). His defense is overrated in general now, but he played good defense at times in the playoffs.

2. Harden - I was more impressed with Harden's series vs GS than Giannis' vs the Raptors. He had an incredible season. His defense isn't as bad as it used to be either and his post defense is underrated. Arguably best offensive player in the league.

3. Giannis - Arguably best player in the RS. I just think games 3-6, he really struggled offensively vs the Raptors. Lack of a jump-shot and poor reads from the Raptors' wall led to the Bucks' demise. His defense is incredible though and he has his own 'gravity' on offense arguably comparable with Curry.

4. Durant - I know he basically missed 2 rounds, but I can't ignore how great he was during the Clippers' series and even the Rockets' series. I think he was generally more consistent than Curry throughout the season too. If Curry didn't struggle the way he did vs the Rockets, I'd have him 4th(because I think he was actually pretty good in the finals), but I can't ignore how badly he looked during that series. Could have been top 3 if he played during the WCF and Finals.

5. Curry/Jokic - I have a hard time picking between the two. Jokic was probably more consistent overall, but sometimes his low volume hurts the Nuggets for me considering how much more efficient he is compared to the Nuggets' guards. I think Curry's season was pretty good, with some real lows during the Rockets' series. Though I think he did enough vs the Raptors to get him a top 5 spot(and he did torch the Blazers even if their D isn't that great).
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#965 » by lebron3-14-3 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:34 pm

I have two questions: Can I vote and when will the voting start?
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#966 » by No-more-rings » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:41 pm

I'd like to give my input whether the vote counts or not.

1. Kawhi- When you are the best player in the playoffs + win the title it's hard to not be 1st for me as long as you played reasonably well in the regular season. The ends justified the means, If Kawhi sitting out some regular season games worked then why knock him that much? It's why i have Lebron in 16, Wade in 06, and Dirk in 11 as best players even though they weren't the best in the regular season.

2. Harden- His offensive regular season was arguably goat level, i think it was close to 16 Curry and some of Mj's best offensive years. Tailed off some in the playoffs, but still played at a reasonably elite level.

3. Giannis- I had him a smidgen over Harden in the regular season, but when a player's flaws get exposed in a 7 game series like that and you don't play well enough to win it knocks you down a few spots generally. You can't expose Kawhi, i think at this point he's played enough elite teams and defenses to prove this. You can't really expose Harden either, you can limit his scoring efficiency because refs don't give as much weak foul calls in the playoffs, but i think he retains his impact mostly the same.

4. Jokic- Leading a team to 2nd in the western conference is just too impressive to ignore. Then exploded in the playoffs, possibly he ran out steam in that last game or 2 against Portland?

5. Curry- He's still Curry. His playoffs had some ups and downs, but he's still roughly 90% as good as he ever was.

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#967 » by HHera187 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:23 pm

1 Leonard
2 Harden
3 Curry
4 Antetokounmpo
5 Jokic
6 Embiid
7 Durant*
8 Lillard
9 George
10 Irving
* 7 spot because of injury, healthy KD was a strong candidate for first spot

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#968 » by eminence » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:42 pm

Will the voting thread be up sometime soon after the awards ceremony?
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#969 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:15 pm

eminence wrote:Will the voting thread be up sometime soon after the awards ceremony?


Hey y'all,

So it probably makes sense for me to run this show again but I'm busy. I'll be gone for most of the next week on a trip and while I will have internet, I'm not going to have time to tally things up.

So, unless someone else does it, I'll plan to create the voting thread next weekend.

General rule has always been: To get a vote you either need:

1) To have been actively participating in the POY Discussion thread
or
2) A well established track record voting in these projects before.

I do it for the following awards:
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6MOY
COY
EOY

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- You have to vote for POY but all other awards are optional.
- For any award you vote in you have to completely fill out the ballot.
- Your voting has to be tied to what was done THIS YEAR rather than what might have happened if only the guy's dog didn't die.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#970 » by lebron3-14-3 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:08 pm

HHera187 wrote:1 Leonard
2 Harden
3 Curry
4 Antetokounmpo
5 Jokic
6 Embiid
7 Durant*
8 Lillard
9 George
10 Irving
* 7 spot because of injury, healthy KD was a strong candidate for first spot

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#971 » by ShotCreator » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:03 pm

Kawhi’s building up quite the overrated image as a player.

Very Kobesque career arc to me.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#972 » by Narigo » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:09 pm

1.Giannis
2.Harden
3.Curry
4.Kawhi
5.Jokic
6.Durant
7.George
8.Lillard
9.Embiid
10.Irving
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#973 » by eminence » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:37 am

Narigo wrote:1.Giannis
2.Harden
3.Curry
4.Kawhi
5.Jokic
6.Durant
7.George
8.Lillard
9.Embiid
10.Irving


Don't like Irving at #10 at all, and Embiid feels a bit low, but aside from that I really like the top of this list.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#974 » by JordansBulls » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:09 am

Thread doesn’t sound too crazy now.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1737719&start=40

Now 2019 team considered weakest of dubs
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#975 » by Timmyyy » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:15 am

JordansBulls wrote:Thread doesn’t sound too crazy now.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1737719&start=40

Now 2019 team considered weakest of dubs


Of course at that time you knew the dubs would have that much bad injury luck.

It was a prediction thread and the 2019 dubs from a prediction standpoint of course were better thought of then as their actual result now, simply because of that bad luck.

Don't act as if they were a bad team and you knew it all along. :nonono:
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#976 » by ardee » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:45 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Thread doesn’t sound too crazy now.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1737719&start=40

Now 2019 team considered weakest of dubs
Uh with everyone healthy, Warriors are still in a deadheat at worst.

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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#977 » by truly » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:01 am

ShotCreator wrote:Kawhi’s building up quite the overrated image as a player.

Very Kobesque career arc to me.



Not sure about his career but he is definitely getting overrated in realgm right now.Especially his defense.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#978 » by freethedevil » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:30 pm

ShotCreator wrote:Kawhi’s building up quite the overrated image as a player.

Very Kobesque career arc to me.

imagine if kawhi is the kobe to giannis's garnett :o
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#979 » by freethedevil » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:38 pm

DatAsh wrote:Curry, Harden and Giannis all showed that defensive schemes over the course of a series can heavily lower their offensive impact.

You don't think this also applies to kawhi, lebron and kd? Literally every player ever will have their offensive impact lowered by the right scheme. Just look at Jordan vs Miami. Heck, just look at kd in okc. Btter yet, just look at kawhi in the conference finals and finals.

Kawhi's effiency plummeted vs the warriors despite having a variety of playmakers to help him carry the load. Curry carried his team to a 107 o rating vs an atg defence even when klay was injured. Kawhi is more dependent on teammates for his offence than curry or harden.
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Re: 2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#980 » by freethedevil » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:40 pm

ardee wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Thread doesn’t sound too crazy now.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1737719&start=40

Now 2019 team considered weakest of dubs
Uh with everyone healthy, Warriors are still in a deadheat at worst.

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the team that went 6-4 in the playoffs isn't "in a deadheat" with the ones whose only worthy opposition was a 70 win team. :lol:

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