RealGM

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney

Small Forwards:


1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES

Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics
Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis
Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle
Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets
Julius Erving (1972-87) Virginia Squires, New York Nets, 76ers
Jamaal Wilkes (1975-86) Warriors, Lakers, Clippers
Bill Hanzlik (1981-90) Seattle, Nuggets
Paul Pressey (1983-93) Bucks, Spurs, Warriors
Rodney McCray (1984-93) Houston, Sacramento, Dallas, Bulls
Derrick McKey (1988-2002) Seattle, Indiana, 76ers
Rick Fox (1992-04) Celtics, Lakers
George Lynch (1994-05) Lakers, Vancouver Grizzlies, 76ers, Hornets
Grant Hill (1995-13) Detroit, Magic, Suns, Clippers
Posey (2000-11) Nuggets, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, Boston, Hornets, Pacers
Stephen Jackson (2001-14) Nets, Spurs, Hawks, Pacers, Warriors, Charlotte, Bucks, Spurs, Clippers
Andrei Kirilenko (2002-15) Jazz, Minnesota, Nets
Gerald Wallace (2002-15) Sacramento, Charlotte, Blazers, Nets, Celtics
Tayshaun Prince (2003-16) Detroit, Grizzlies, Celtics, Minnesota
Luol Deng (2005-19+) Bulls, Cavaliers, Heat, Lakers, Minnesota
Paul George (2011-19+) Pacers, OKC
Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors
Robert Covington (2014-19+) 76ers




Hi guys

I'll kick the thread off with a vote for Kawhi Leonard. I genuinely still believe he deserves to be on this list based on peak value alone.

If his case doesn't end up gathering any steam and AK47's does, I reserve the right to change this vote later.

Sheesh either AK47 or Leonard won't make the list

Going with Kirilenko. His shotblocking ability is unique among SFs and he was both a good man defender and an excellent help defender. He would have gone higher with more minutes.

Could someone explain me, how Deng was better defensively than Kawhi or Kiri? These votings have errors in itselves, wonder need what do to fix it.

Whoa.. Kirilenko nor Kawhi have been voted in yet?

Voting for Kawhi

Repeating my vote for Kawhi Leonard.

I vote for Tim Duncan as the best Defensive PF of All-Time.

AK47 for SF

feyki wrote:Could someone explain me, how Deng was better defensively than Kawhi or Kiri? These votings have errors in itselves, wonder need what do to fix it.

lack of activity probably lead to some surprising results.

Among the remaining candidates, this spot was largely between Kawhi Leonard and Gerald Wallace for me. I'm just not sold on Andrei Kirilenko as a shoe-in top 10 defensive SF (though he's very likely in my top 12).

Kawhi at his best looked better to me via eye-test. DRAPM would bare this to be true (as far as his on-court impact). His limited minutes and missed games, of course, limit how much he is actually "on-court" though. And Wallace has the better longevity as well.
otoh, he never had the offensive responsibilities that Kawhi's had in recent years.

idk, I've sort of been on the fence between these two, occasionally leaning maybe marginally toward Wallace [longevity pick]......but I'm going to pick Kawhi Leonard here. It might be somewhat of a sympathy pick. Kawhi was in a runoff way back in the #6 thread or thereabouts; but then his contingent just up and left the project. I feel he'd have been voted in a couple spots ago [even if I never supported him] if they'd not left. So since I'm on the fence anyway, I'm going with Kawhi for the final spot.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

feyki wrote:Could someone explain me, how Deng was better defensively than Kawhi or Kiri? These votings have errors in itselves, wonder need what do to fix it.

lack of activity probably lead to some surprising results.

Bottom line is voters are valuing longevity and Kawhi falls short there.

Ainosterhaspie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

feyki wrote:Could someone explain me, how Deng was better defensively than Kawhi or Kiri? These votings have errors in itselves, wonder need what do to fix it.

lack of activity probably lead to some surprising results.

Bottom line is voters are valuing longevity and Kawhi falls short there.

This.
Also [where Deng specifically is concerned]: he's got a peak year +3.9 DRAPM (marginally better than Kawhi's best, fwiw; not that the metric is infallible, but it certainly indicates that players like Deng [and Battier and Iggy] have been underrated) while missing no games and playing 39.1 mpg (this amounting to something like ~900 more rs minutes than Kawhi played in any of his best defensive years). And I posted at great length about Deng's defensive acumen (peak, prime, and career) in the last thread (commenting on AK47 along the way).

One could go and actually read all that as a start, before popping in here saying "could someone explain..."

feyki wrote:Could someone explain me, how Deng was better defensively than Kawhi or Kiri? These votings have errors in itselves, wonder need what do to fix it.

It is a complicated vote because Kawhi is a no doubt top 3 SF defender of all time in his two DPOY years but if you take into account longevity may not have provided as much value.

Not sure if I disagree with some of the results, but SF vote has been the weirdest category of the three to me between LBJ getting higher than expected, Kawhi and AK fall, Battier at 5 still doesn't sit right with me.

I am glad to see Deng get recognized, for me he has a lot of what you could ask for out of a SF defender (size, IQ, motor). For those with later registration dates, in late 00s and early 10s, Iguodala and Deng were compared a lot. They were both the high IQ defensive standouts who had enough offense that they were established 10 SFs in the league instead of role players, but not enough to be real franchise players, you knew they had to be your 3rd or 4th best player on a contender. Here is a thread with some split opinions viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1054962 Now I think Deng's offense is slightly more outdated than his, but defensively up until about 2014 they were probably pretty close. It's just from 2015 Iguodala went on to shine with Finals MVP defending Lebron, etc. and Deng became overpaid and washed. So Iggy should be higher based on providing value the last four years but 4th vs 9th is reasonable difference

I'll vote for Kawhi Leonard, he had several other pretty good defensive seasons outside of his DPOY years which are top 3 caliber

I can't buy Kawhi. He had the 2 standout years, but that's it. If you want to compare him to a similar modern short peak guy, here are the best years for he and Covington by DRPM:

14/15 Kawhi Leonard: 4.59
18/19 Robert Covington: 4.40
16/17 Robert Covington: 4.32
17/18 Robert Covington: 4.24
15/16 Kawhi Leonard: 3.88
13/14 Kawhi Leonard: 2.13

He's got a very short peak that's arguably not even the best within a short time frame. Also, I feel like he's already entering into the stage of his career where he gives less effort on D. I don't even think there are still elite defensive years to come outside of short stretches in the playoffs.While Covington's only getting better going forward, Kawhi will likely never reach the same heights again. But with Covington performing poorly his only time in the playoffs I can't really give him the 10 slot.

Gonna vote for the unique guy who could have done more without injuries that having a lesser peak and medicore longevity, still did play a full career. Voting Andrei Kirilenko.

Vote Kawhi
I don't care about short peaks. Best whatever of all time for me means who was best at their peak. Maybe one year is too short but I am fine with 2 year peaks.

I like Kirilenko. Out of Deng, Prince and Kirilenko, Kirilenko was the most impressive in terms of wow factor. I don't really know if Kirilenko was sacrificing basic boring defense to produce eye catching help defense.

Probably Paul Pressey should have made the top 10 list.

trex_8063 wrote:DVOR."

DVOR likes Gerald Wallace. Drapm also I think.
I would not have expected plus minus stats to like Gerald Wallace. I understand why Box score stats would love Gerald Wallace's rebounding.

Gerald Wallace had the athleticism to be a great defender but I never thought he was a better than average defender. Was I wrong? Was Gerald Wallace an unacknowledged great defender?

short on time at the moment, so I'll say Kirilenko for the same reasons as last time.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:DVOR."

DVOR likes Gerald Wallace. Drapm also I think.

Almost necessarily so (if DVOR likes him). Remember DVOR is derived directly from DRAPM.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I would not have expected plus minus stats to like Gerald Wallace. I understand why Box score stats would love Gerald Wallace's rebounding.

Gerald Wallace had the athleticism to be a great defender but I never thought he was a better than average defender. Was I wrong? Was Gerald Wallace an unacknowledged great defender?

I wouldn't say unacknowledged, but perhaps under-acknowledged???

Wallace never quite had a DRAPM season to match Kawhi's best year (or even Kawhi's best TWO years); close, but not quite. Few SF's ever have had a single-season DRAPM to match Kawhi's best: Luol Deng did once ('11; marginally bested Kawhi's best, actually), Robert Covington's '18 (rs-only) DRAPM is a little better than Kawhi's, and Shane Battier actually has the single-best ever DRAPM by a SF (has one other season that's basically on par with Kawhi's best, too); and Shawn Marion had one season that nearly matches Kawhi's best (though it's an NPI year ['01], which I'm a little more skeptical of because I find NPI more "noisy", especially when it appears to be a clear outlier in his career [which it is]).

But the thing is, RAPM assesses a player's effectiveness on a per possession basis, and obviously a player cannot effect a possession if he's not ON THE FLOOR. This is where Kawhi can suffer compared to others: in his three best DRAPM years ('14-'16), he missed at least 10 (and as many as 18) games in EACH of those three years, and also NEVER averaged as many as 34 mpg.

Compare that to Gerald Wallace: in his best years he was [on average] missing a roughly comparable number of games, but he was averaging anywhere from 36-41 mpg (avg around 38 mpg). So where his impact might be a little less [on a per possession basis], he was asserting his positive effect on roughly 20% more possessions PER GAME/PER SEASON than Kawhi was. This is the thing that DVOR attempted to quantify: accounting of defensive value above replacement level per season, per season in best 3 or 5-year splits, per game in best years, etc.


fwiw, prior to this project if someone had asked me who I thought exerted the most positive influence defensively [in their best seasons] between Kawhi, Battier, Deng, and Gerald Wallace, I probably would have [based on eye-test] ordered it:
Kawhi
Battier
Deng/Wallace

Closer scrutiny of the impact metrics has certainly made me question that order. Not that the metrics are infallible, and not that we should disregard the "eye-test". imo, one should temper the other.


Kawhi at his best exerted a lot of influence in ways that appear on the boxscore: he generated lots of turnovers, had a fair number of blocks (for a SF), and was pretty good on the defensive boards too. The steals in particular are the type of defensive plays that are very obvious to casual fans and frequently make the highlight reels.
Something like moving one's feet well and cutting off penetration and forcing a difficult mid-range shot and/or forcing the ball back outside for a reset with the shotclock running down, otoh, is not something that ever makes the highlight reel (and is frequently something that a casual fan never realizes busted the possession for the opposing team).

Not that Kawhi doesn't also frequently move his feet well or do other non-box related things defensively. Just making a point that the non-box/non-highlight reel plays are the plays that are more easily missed (and thus not credited to the player). Kawhi will never be "missed" because he IS doing the box-related things too. Someone like Deng might be "missed", though. Wallace is somewhere in between.

Kawhi not making the list would almost invalidate it completely.