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Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney

Small Forwards:


1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES

Tim Duncan (recent poll confirms slim consensus is still for him to be PF)
Kevin Garnett
Draymond Green
Bobby Jones
Larry Nance
Bo Outlaw
Rasheed Wallace
Dennis Rodman
Dave DeBusschere
Elvin Hayes
Gus Johnson
Kevin McHale
Horace Grant
Paul Millsap
Anthony Mason
Buck Williams
Maurice Lucas
Karl Malone
Paul Silas
PJ Brown
Charles Oakley
Dan Roundfield
Serge Ibaka
Bob Love
AC Green
Maurice Stokes
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Lonnie Shelton
Clifford Robinson
Bill Bridges
Rudy LaRusso




Hi guys

Duncan.

With much respect to KG.

I say let Duncan be a PF. When I tried counting the defensive minutes of Duncan and his teammates I had Duncan playing more than half of his career defensive minutes at Center. Then somebody suggested that some of players that I saw as power forwards played some center next to Duncan despite being smaller than Duncan.

Duncan was a center sized guy and would have been a center on most teams. Duncan started next to centers but Duncan tended to finish games as the center. I think Pop was preserving Duncan's health and Stamina by playing Duncan at power forward.

Consensus opinion is that Duncan is a power forward. We called Dennis Johnson a point guard even though Dennis Johnson probably played the Majority of his minutes at off guard. Fans remember Johnson more as a point guard. Fans think of Duncan as a power forward and he played more power forward at his peak. For this project will call Duncan a power forward.

Vote Kevin Garnett

Garnett and Duncan are the two top 2 based on longevity combined with how they have a great case to be the best peak defenders anyways. I am voting Garnett over Duncan for two reasons

- His RAPM data is stronger due to having the highest peak in Boston
- In their era it's a toss-up but I feel the closest you get to the present KG's value as a defender increases compared to Duncan's, and the farther back you go Duncan's increases to KG's. You would prefer Duncan in the 70s but KG in modern era. Since offense is the most advanced now I side with the more modern player

CAN WE PLEASE

Just call this

1A: Duncan
1B: KG

Tied for 1st and 2nd place.

If Rodman had played PF his whole career, he's be 1C, but him playing SF takes away from his career here.

The problem with Duncan as a PF is that rim protectors are more valuable than lockdown defenders. It has been proven over the course of NBA history. So Duncan is the de facto #1 over KG or Rodman because his rim protection is clearly superior. All 3 are superb rebounders. Duncan is the best shot blocker and post defender of the 3. Duncan is not quite as quick as Rodman or KG but he's as long as them. All 3 have ridiculous wingspans of 7'3-7'4. Duncan is the strongest of the 3.

Duncan has very close to the same level of help defense as KG and Rodman. KG and Rodman are better lockdown defenders, but not by a large margin. That's really the only knock and not much of one if he's playing in the paint most of the time.

It also denies us of being able to rank him among the other rim protectors in history. Just an all around disappointing result.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:
If Rodman had played PF his whole career, he's be 1C, but him playing SF takes away from his career here.

I don't follow the logic here. His box-related defensive metrics are only slightly better overall in his PF years, mostly because his DReb rates go thru the roof; but some scouting indicates that in some of these years he was often chasing boards at the expense of his man defense (a re-watch of the '95 WCF is the most illustrative example of this).

And though years listed at SF comprise only five of his 13 seasons, they account for three of his seven All-D 1st honors [three of his eight total All-D honors], as well as one of his two DPOY's (i.e. his SF years are, proportionally, more lauded in terms of accolades). They are also the years in which he established his reputation as a premier defensive player.

So how exactly did playing some SF take away from career defensive value?

kendogg wrote:The problem with Duncan as a PF is that rim protectors are more valuable than lockdown defenders. It has been proven over the course of NBA history. So Duncan is the de facto #1 over KG or Rodman because his rim protection is clearly superior. All 3 are superb rebounders. Duncan is the best shot blocker and post defender of the 3. Duncan is not quite as quick as Rodman or KG but he's as long as them. All 3 have ridiculous wingspans of 7'3-7'4. Duncan is the strongest of the 3.

Duncan has very close to the same level of help defense as KG and Rodman. KG and Rodman are better lockdown defenders, but not by a large margin. That's really the only knock and not much of one if he's playing in the paint most of the time.

It also denies us of being able to rank him among the other rim protectors in history. Just an all around disappointing result.

Rim protection has been a power forward defensive skill as well as a center defensive skill for most of NBA history, so I don't really see why it's disappointing that Duncan is the best at it. Although I think actually KG has more of a claim for that spot than you're giving him credit for.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:If Rodman had played PF his whole career, he's be 1C, but him playing SF takes away from his career here.

The thinking from earlier threads has been that we're not rating these guys on how well they defended as PFs; we're taking all the players in the PF bucket and ranking them on their overall defensive value.

Tim Duncan for me. Better longevity than Garnett and more consistent prime than anyone here. I also believe that his GOAT rim protection and help defense overcome KG quickness and P&R defense.

Close, but clear choice for me.

Going with KG. I don't think he was that far behind Duncan in terms of rim protection and his versatility just puts him over the top.

Tim Duncan

KG, because for me the podium for the greatest defenders of all time is him, hakeem and bill russell.

Never really understood why there's an argument for who's better on the defensive end between him and duncan (beside a bit of a longevity advantage for timmy d, but garnett has 50k minutes played and has recieved all defensive honors from 2000 to 2012, so it's not like it is a big factor)

This is very painful for me, because Tim Duncan is my favorite player ever, but I have to go with Kevin Garnett. He had 95% of Tim's communication and intelligence with 120% of the athleticism, and he spent some time as a true lockdown perimeter guy against wings early in his career before he moved to PF. Here I have to note that Tim did plenty of that too, and people forget it; check out what he did against Jason Kidd in the '98 playoffs. Overall though KG was just a little faster and a little more versatile; at his best he was like a combination of Tim and Kawhi. So he gets my vote for number one, although I don't think Tim would be a wrong choice either.

Wait, so no love for Draymond or what? Is he a center to most people now?? He's the second smartest defender of all time after Russell imo. I personally have him over KG and Duncan. We might actually be watching the best defender ever. He's smarter than guys like Lebron, KG, Duncan, or Hakeem on defense. Smarts and timing on help D matter more in terms of impact than any other aspect of a player, and Draymond's the best we've seen imo.

My vote goes to Draymond, and the 1a/1b being KG and Timmy in some order really shouldn't be so set in stone. He's a legitimate challenger to the two of them.

Duncan is the best player on the board & should pretty clearly be picked.

trex_8063 wrote:

mdonnelly1989 wrote:
If Rodman had played PF his whole career, he's be 1C, but him playing SF takes away from his career here.

I don't follow the logic here. His box-related defensive metrics are only slightly better overall in his PF years, mostly because his DReb rates go thru the roof; but some scouting indicates that in some of these years he was often chasing boards at the expense of his man defense (a re-watch of the '95 WCF is the most illustrative example of this).

And though years listed at SF comprise only five of his 13 seasons, they account for three of his seven All-D 1st honors [three of his eight total All-D honors], as well as one of his two DPOY's (i.e. his SF years are, proportionally, more lauded in terms of accolades). They are also the years in which he established his reputation as a premier defensive player.

So how exactly did playing some SF take away from career defensive value?

Minor correction his DPoYs are '90 and '91. So both his DPoYs are years with Edwards, Laimbeer and Rodman starting (i.e. Rodman starting at SF) and years in which Edwards, Laimbeer and Salley take up the bulk of the "big" minutes (plus others taking spot minutes), meaning Rodman was primarily an SF both years.

More generally, as Cecil alludes to, it is possible that the poster is thinking in terms of value added at the position and hasn't understood that the question is career value of players designated as primarily power forwards. Not saying that definitely is what happened, but a possibility.

Heej wrote:Wait, so no love for Draymond or what? Is he a center to most people now?? He's the second smartest defender of all time after Russell imo. I personally have him over KG and Duncan. We might actually be watching the best defender ever. He's smarter than guys like Lebron, KG, Duncan, or Hakeem on defense. Smarts and timing on help D matter more in terms of impact than any other aspect of a player, and Draymond's the best we've seen imo.

My vote goes to Draymond, and the 1a/1b being KG and Timmy in some order really shouldn't be so set in stone. He's a legitimate challenger to the two of them.

Longevity. Draymond is good, but he's nowhere close to so good that I'm taking his 4 All-Defensive selections over Garnett's 12 or Timmy's 15 (or Rodman's 8, fwiw). And even hypothetically, I don't think he's going to last nearly as long as they did.

Heej wrote:Wait, so no love for Draymond or what? Is he a center to most people now?? He's the second smartest defender of all time after Russell imo. I personally have him over KG and Duncan. We might actually be watching the best defender ever. He's smarter than guys like Lebron, KG, Duncan, or Hakeem on defense. Smarts and timing on help D matter more in terms of impact than any other aspect of a player, and Draymond's the best we've seen imo.

My vote goes to Draymond, and the 1a/1b being KG and Timmy in some order really shouldn't be so set in stone. He's a legitimate challenger to the two of them.

We take into account longevity so it's very hard to make a case against KG and Duncan with that disadvantage. And I would take KG over Draymond for peak defense anyways, he's basically a 7 foot version

Dr Positivity wrote:

Heej wrote:Wait, so no love for Draymond or what? Is he a center to most people now?? He's the second smartest defender of all time after Russell imo. I personally have him over KG and Duncan. We might actually be watching the best defender ever. He's smarter than guys like Lebron, KG, Duncan, or Hakeem on defense. Smarts and timing on help D matter more in terms of impact than any other aspect of a player, and Draymond's the best we've seen imo.

My vote goes to Draymond, and the 1a/1b being KG and Timmy in some order really shouldn't be so set in stone. He's a legitimate challenger to the two of them.

We take into account longevity so it's very hard to make a case against KG and Duncan with that disadvantage. And I would take KG over Draymond for peak defense anyways, he's basically a 7 foot version

Same. Defensively, KG was like Draymond before Draymond, fully capable of guarding all 5 positions (I'd argue even more so than Draymond) and every bit as smart, but with better physical tools.