#3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[trex_8063]

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett


And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Draymond Green
Bobby Jones
Larry Nance
Bo Outlaw
Rasheed Wallace
Dennis Rodman
Dave DeBusschere
Elvin Hayes
Gus Johnson
Kevin McHale
Horace Grant
Paul Millsap
Anthony Mason
Buck Williams
Maurice Lucas
Karl Malone
Paul Silas
PJ Brown
Charles Oakley
Dan Roundfield
Josh Smith
Serge Ibaka
Bob Love
AC Green
Maurice Stokes
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Lonnie Shelton
Clifford Robinson
Bill Bridges
Rudy LaRusso
[/b]



Hi guys

Spoiler:

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

.

.

a

a

a

I'

a

.

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

a

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

[

)

)

)

)

)

)

)

/

/

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Dennis Rodman

He played more minutes than Jones and in harder era. He may not have been as a good a help defender as Jones but having crazy Drb helps make up for that a bit. Obviously crazy motor and physicality and some fear factor

Draymond longevity is a little light and I have Debusschere below Jones but I could be convinced otherwise, my impression is DeBusschere speciality is man to man D and Jones help defense

[cecilthesheep]

Bobby Jones. Despite playing fewer minutes than Rodman, he was first team All-Defense every single year of his career except for his final year, in which he was second team. He had better physical tools/athleticism than Rodman, too - from the film I've watched, he looks like he was taller, longer, and faster, and could jump higher.

More importantly, beyond the things Rodman did that most people know about like spending way too much time chasing meaningless rebounds instead of boxing out, etc. - he had some rather forgotten bad attributes as a team defender. I blame Rodman far more than David Robinson for the way Hakeem torched the Spurs in the 1995 playoffs, for this reason: Rodman flat out refused to follow the Spurs game plan and double Hakeem. He was so pridefully focused on keeping his own man from scoring any points that he intentionally left David Robinson, who gets crapped on for that series to this day, out on an island against the best post scorer ever. Rodman admits this in his own book, managing to blame it on everyone else:

David asked me for help, and I told him right to his **** face, “I am not going down there.” I was not going to help him. He didn’t say anything to me, because there was nothing he could say. Before those games, he looked so f**king scared in the locker room, he couldn’t stop shaking.

They asked me to double-team Olajuwon, and I refused. The way the defense was drawn up, there was no way I was going to be able to get back down inside when my man was at the top of the key or way out on the baseline. The defense didn’t make sense, and I told Bob Hill this. He just looked at me and said, “This is the defense we’re going to run.”

-- Dennis Rodman, Bad As I Wanna Be, 1996

That more than anything else was why the Spurs were done with Rodman after that year. And that more than anything else is why, if I had to choose one guy to be my defensive specialist, I'd pick Bobby Jones over him every time. When it's this close, I'm taking the guy who runs the gameplan and doesn't put himself over his team.

[kendogg]

Dennis Rodman. Yeah he has locker room issues but he's IMO the best lockdown defender all time after pippen. higher than KG in pure lockdown defense. KG has the better team defense though by a decent margin. but rodman was such a defensive force that he was all NBA basically just on defense and scrap points.

[LA Bird]

I would say Hayes is #3 behind Duncan/KG. He has a sizeable longevity advantage over everybody else and he was consistently on great defensive teams during his prime. Both the Rockets and Bullets improved defensively when Hayes joined the team:

Rockets team DRtg
1968: +2.0 (before Hayes)
1969: -2.7
1970: -2.2
1971: -1.7
1972: -1.1
1973: +2.6 (after Hayes)

Bullets team DRtg
1972: -0.3 (before Hayes)
1973: -3.5
1974: -3.5
1975: -6.4
1976: -3.0
1977: -1.1
1978: -0.4
1979: -1.1

Individually, he averaged 2+ blocks and is a great rebounder even after pace adjustment (~16 TRB% for his career). He is the only PF ever with over 8 DWS in a season (74, 75) and was likely the best defensive player in the league in 1975 considering how dominant the Bullets' defense was that season.

Vote: Elvin Hayes

Rodman's defense wasn't that impressive after Detroit IMO. Offense/defense impact split from his Bulls years point to his offense (specifically offensive rebounding) being more valuable than his defense and the fact that the 94/95 Spurs defense was only at -1.7, -2.9 with prime Robinson and Rodman together casts doubt on Rodman's defense at that point. Raw WOWY has the 95 Spurs defense improving from 101.4 opponent ppg to 99.5 during Rodman's 33 game absence and his own Spurs teammate called him out for statpadding rebounds and not guarding shooters from outside. Rodman played his best defense in his early Detroit years but he wasn't a high minute player yet and he didnt deserve either of his DPOY over 90 Hakeem and 91 Robinson.

[SkyHookFTW]

Tossing a vote to Bobby Jones. First team all-defense every year except his last, where he was "only second team all-defense. Combined high IQ for the game with an intuitive feel for defense that can't be taught. Excellent man defender and an even better help defender, great leaper, could offer rim protection if needed, and fit seamlessly into any system he played in. While not the rebounder Rodman was, he was no slouch in that area. And he didn't get into foul trouble, so you never had to worry about him not being available during crunch time. Why not much foul trouble for a great defender? Because he was rarely out of position and his lateral movement ability allowed him to cover ground effortlessly. He could defend outside too...dude would be perfect for today's NBA.

[iggymcfrack]

Voting Draymond Green.

Unprecedented impact for a guy that’s not a true primary rim protector. Finished 1st, 3rd, and 2nd in the league in DRPM over a 3-year span. Better still, he’s shown the ability to elevate his play even more in the playoffs where he’s been shown to consistently be the most impactful Warriors player across 4 Finals runs. He’s also a team leader in the way that Rodman could never be.

[euroleague]

Vote Dennis Rodman

Obviously players here are criticizing his 94 years, and saying his impact was overstated with the Bulls. However, he dominated when it mattered. He locked down Kemp in the 96 finals, and was called by George Karl "The real finals MVP" for his defensive efforts. In 90 his DPOTY may have been wrongly given to him over Hakeem, but that's mainly because PFs shouldn't have the impact on defense that GOAT level center defenders do. Dennis Rodman was the main addition defensively for the 96 Bulls (MJ played in 95) and their DRTG dropped 3 points from an ALREADY 2nd place defense.

I don't think he's a good leader. If we are including locker room presence and leadership then I'd drop him out of the top 5. But, assuming there's someone who can hold him accountable and he will follow the schemes (eg. Isiah, Pippen) then his defense on those teams is certainly bigger than the remaining candidates.

When I think of the greatest defensive PF of all time, first I think of the greatest offensive PFs of all time - Larry Bird, LBJ, Barkley, Karl Malone, Dirk, McHale, Kemp, and maybe Giannis soon - and I think who I would want defending them. Draymond doesn't defend LBJ, and he couldn't defend Malone or Giannis. Rodman could much better. The only PFs Rodman would struggle against are those that play as Center for their team - like Duncan.

I don't trust DWS or DRTG as pure measures of defensive impact, as many other factors are related to those numbers.

[pandrade83]

I'll go with Elvin Hayes. 3 X leader in DWS, was the rim protector on some elite defenses in both San Diego/Houston as well as Washington & for those who care about longevity, he's got the rest of the field trumped there. Draymond & Rodman will be next on my ballot.

[cecilthesheep]

I'll go with Elvin Hayes. 3 X leader in DWS, was the rim protector on some elite defenses in both San Diego/Houston as well as Washington & for those who care about longevity, he's got the rest of the field trumped there. Draymond & Rodman will be next on my ballot.

Why Draymond at this point in his career over Bobby Jones? Not saying it's indefensible, just curious as to the reasoning since I think Jones was as good as any of these guys on defense.

[apeezus]

Vote: Draymond Green

[Samurai]

Voting for Bobby Jones. I understand his longevity and durability are lacking compared to a few others, but he was so good defensively in his prime that I am very comfortable picking him. I have watched the others mentioned - Big E, Rodman, Draymond - and they were all great defenders. But I also watched Jones throughout his NBA career (didn't see much of his outstanding ABA time since ABA games were very rarely televised).

And while I am picking Jones based on what I saw of his on-court defense, if I were picking a real-life team I'd definitely pick Jones over the rest. He was a true gentleman. Only guy I saw go up to a referee - not to yell and cuss at him - but to politely point out that he had committed a foul and not a teammate who was incorrectly whistled. Even though that was his fifth foul! Because the referee knew Jones' reputation as an honest person, he changed the call. Always raised his hand high when called for a foul; when asked why he doesn't yell at referees when he gets whistled, he asked why he should do that. It won't change the call and will only cause friction with that particular official. His teammate Charles Barkley said that if everyone acted like Bobby Jones, the world would not have any problems. Great motor who always hustled. Teammate Julius Erving said "he is a player who is totally selfless, who runs like a deer, jumps like a gazelle, plays with his head and his heart each night, then walks away from the court like nothing happened." He refused to drink, smoke or curse. He was universally respected as a true gentleman and an ideal teammate. It is not typical to hear the other names mentioned in quite the same way, so if all else is equal, I would take the better teammate.

[iggymcfrack]

I'll go with Elvin Hayes. 3 X leader in DWS, was the rim protector on some elite defenses in both San Diego/Houston as well as Washington & for those who care about longevity, he's got the rest of the field trumped there. Draymond & Rodman will be next on my ballot.

Why Draymond at this point in his career over Bobby Jones? Not saying it's indefensible, just curious as to the reasoning since I think Jones was as good as any of these guys on defense.

I tend to rely a little more on somewhat anecdotal data for guys that played before the advent of play-by-play tracking, but given how Denver and Philly performed on either side of his trade, I find it hard to believe he had anywhere near the impact of a Draymond Green.

77/78 Nuggets (with Jones): 101.5 DRtg
78/79 Nuggets (w/o Jones): 103.2 DRtg

77/78 Sixers (w/o Jones): 100.3 DRtg
78/79 Sixers (with Jones): 100.3 DRtg

So the Nuggets defense got slightly worse when he left while the Sixers defense saw no impact whatsoever. He was traded at age 26 with Ralph Simpson for George McInnis so he was right at the age where he should have been in his defensive prime and the player he was traded for wasn't anyone with any kind of special defensive reputation. I don't doubt that Jones was a very good defender for his position, but he probably wasn't the kind of game altering presence you'd want this high up the list. I don't see how he would deserve consideration ahead of Green or Rodman.

[cecilthesheep]

I'll go with Elvin Hayes. 3 X leader in DWS, was the rim protector on some elite defenses in both San Diego/Houston as well as Washington & for those who care about longevity, he's got the rest of the field trumped there. Draymond & Rodman will be next on my ballot.

Why Draymond at this point in his career over Bobby Jones? Not saying it's indefensible, just curious as to the reasoning since I think Jones was as good as any of these guys on defense.

I tend to rely a little more on somewhat anecdotal data for guys that played before the advent of play-by-play tracking, but given how Denver and Philly performed on either side of his trade, I find it hard to believe he had anywhere near the impact of a Draymond Green.

77/78 Nuggets (with Jones): 101.5 DRtg
78/79 Nuggets (w/o Jones): 103.2 DRtg

77/78 Sixers (w/o Jones): 100.3 DRtg
78/79 Sixers (with Jones): 100.3 DRtg

So the Nuggets defense got slightly worse when he left while the Sixers defense saw no impact whatsoever. He was traded at age 26 with Ralph Simpson for George McInnis so he was right at the age where he should have been in his defensive prime and the player he was traded for wasn't anyone with any kind of special defensive reputation. I don't doubt that Jones was a very good defender for his position, but he probably wasn't the kind of game altering presence you'd want this high up the list. I don't see how he would deserve consideration ahead of Green or Rodman.

That makes sense; I see what you're saying.

If that's the whole case against him, though, my response would be that team defense stats are very noisy and heavily influenced by things like coaching, teammates, and even just what mood the team is in that year. The Celtics' defensive rating jumped from 103.6 in 2016 to 108.4 in 2017, and their most significant personnel change between the two years was adding Al Horford. And then it fell back down to 103.9 in 2018. The Spurs lost Kawhi Leonard after 2017 and their DRtg jumped by less than a point and a half. Sometimes DRtg just doesn't make any sense.

So given how well Jones does in things that attempt to estimate actual individual on/off impact like WOWYR and PIPM, and given that he beats everyone remaining in All-Defensive selections, passes the eye test as well as anybody, and has a spotless reputation, I still stand by my vote.

[70sFan]

I love Big E mention. The more I think about it, the more I lean forward to him. He has far better longevity than Jones/Green/Rodman and I'm not sure whether he's worse at all. He has full decade of DPOTY level seasons, he's consistent, he led some great defensive teams and he passes the eye test. Elite rim protector, good help defender, tough rebounder. What do you want more from him?

[penbeast0]

Out of Hayes, Rodman, Jones, Green . . .

Hayes was also a bit of a negative in the locker room but he was more the true center in both San Diego and Washington; Unseld played more the traditional pf role of dirty work banger while Hayes was the shotblocker. This is a role that has traditionally had extra impact for team defense.

Rodman's problems in San Antonio and unwillingness to play defensive schemes that he didn't feel like clearly do drop him for me. Defense is a team effort, Rodman was not a team player despite his individual brilliance and his ridiculous rebounding.

Jones has the stamina issues but his peers considered him the best, year in and year out.

Green is also an excellent choice but even Jones, whose stamina issues have been mentioned by others, has twice the minutes played than Green.

Vote: Bobby Jones

[pandrade83]

Why Draymond at this point in his career over Bobby Jones? Not saying it's indefensible, just curious as to the reasoning since I think Jones was as good as any of these guys on defense.

I tend to rely a little more on somewhat anecdotal data for guys that played before the advent of play-by-play tracking, but given how Denver and Philly performed on either side of his trade, I find it hard to believe he had anywhere near the impact of a Draymond Green.

77/78 Nuggets (with Jones): 101.5 DRtg
78/79 Nuggets (w/o Jones): 103.2 DRtg

77/78 Sixers (w/o Jones): 100.3 DRtg
78/79 Sixers (with Jones): 100.3 DRtg

So the Nuggets defense got slightly worse when he left while the Sixers defense saw no impact whatsoever. He was traded at age 26 with Ralph Simpson for George McInnis so he was right at the age where he should have been in his defensive prime and the player he was traded for wasn't anyone with any kind of special defensive reputation. I don't doubt that Jones was a very good defender for his position, but he probably wasn't the kind of game altering presence you'd want this high up the list. I don't see how he would deserve consideration ahead of Green or Rodman.

That makes sense; I see what you're saying.

If that's the whole case against him, though, my response would be that team defense stats are very noisy and heavily influenced by things like coaching, teammates, and even just what mood the team is in that year. The Celtics' defensive rating jumped from 103.6 in 2016 to 108.4 in 2017, and their most significant personnel change between the two years was adding Al Horford. And then it fell back down to 103.9 in 2018. The Spurs lost Kawhi Leonard after 2017 and their DRtg jumped by less than a point and a half. Sometimes DRtg just doesn't make any sense.

So given how well Jones does in things that attempt to estimate actual individual on/off impact like WOWYR and PIPM, and given that he beats everyone remaining in All-Defensive selections, passes the eye test as well as anybody, and has a spotless reputation, I still stand by my vote.

For this project, I care a little bit more about peak/prime impact vs. longevity than how I voted in the RGM Top 100 project - i.e. - what do your Top 4/5 seasons look like? Longevity is more of a tie-break. On that basis, I like Draymond's work here more than anyone else left (who I haven't voted for) aside from perhaps Rodman.

[Owly]

I'll go with Elvin Hayes. 3 X leader in DWS, was the rim protector on some elite defenses in both San Diego/Houston as well as Washington & for those who care about longevity, he's got the rest of the field trumped there. Draymond & Rodman will be next on my ballot.

Why Draymond at this point in his career over Bobby Jones? Not saying it's indefensible, just curious as to the reasoning since I think Jones was as good as any of these guys on defense.

I tend to rely a little more on somewhat anecdotal data for guys that played before the advent of play-by-play tracking, but given how Denver and Philly performed on either side of his trade, I find it hard to believe he had anywhere near the impact of a Draymond Green.

77/78 Nuggets (with Jones): 101.5 DRtg
78/79 Nuggets (w/o Jones): 103.2 DRtg

77/78 Sixers (w/o Jones): 100.3 DRtg
78/79 Sixers (with Jones): 100.3 DRtg

So the Nuggets defense got slightly worse when he left while the Sixers defense saw no impact whatsoever. He was traded at age 26 with Ralph Simpson for George McInnis so he was right at the age where he should have been in his defensive prime and the player he was traded for wasn't anyone with any kind of special defensive reputation. I don't doubt that Jones was a very good defender for his position, but he probably wasn't the kind of game altering presence you'd want this high up the list. I don't see how he would deserve consideration ahead of Green or Rodman.

Jones is one of the few guys from that era who we do have significant impact data on. The 76ers statistician Harvey Pollack tracked plus minus for the 76ers long before anyone else and I think it was fpliii that put them up on here:

some links
viewtopic.php?t=1343246&start=40 (more on page 8)
viewtopic.php?t=1597769&start=20
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10512986&postcount=255
there may be more stuff but that should get you started

I can't say I've gone through the numbers in detail (or lately) but my recollection was that Jones (and Cheeks) came out pretty well.

[trex_8063]

I’m once again going to provide some categorical ranked comparisons of 17 different candidates (well, 17 including those who’ve already been voted in).

The DVOR (Defensive Value Over Replacement) cited below is NOT to be confused with DVORP (as in something derived from the VORP numbers on bbref). DVOR utilizes DRAPM and minutes played, and attempts to illuminate the defensive value above a replacement level player [set at -0.75 DRAPM] per season in best years, per game in best years, per career, as so forth as indicated in headers.
However, DRAPM only exists for ‘97 and after. I utilized rs APM [on/off stat] combined with shutupandjam’s Estimated Impact [a box-derived figure] defensive split to make an “educated estimate” for DRAPM for ‘94-’96. And then I just used straight Estimated Impact defensive split for years prior to ‘94. I know this isn’t ideal or true apples to apples, but I wanted a means to include older players in all these broad categories.
I’ve looked at a lot of these now, and fwiw I get the feeling the EI defensive split will UNDER-estimate more often than over-estimating. I get the feeling it rated Elvin Hayes pretty fairly, but for many of these players (like Dave DeBusschere, Gus Johnson, Dennis Rodman, or Buck Williams as examples), the splits just don’t look quite right. We even have some supportive evidence to suggest this is the case for player whose career span into the RAPM era [e.g. Buck Williams]. I think for several of these guys EI basically just “evens things out”--->marginally over-rating their offensive imprint while UNDER-rating them defensively. Bobby Jones likely underrated in general by the EI metric, at least based on the early 80's on/off numbers he had for Sixers.
Anyway, bear that grain of salt in mind with the following.
Also…..
*All box-derived metrics are excluding the current ‘19 season.
**ALL seasons have been pro-rated to full 82-game season.

All-Defensive Honors “Points” (awarding 1.5 pts for each All-D 1st Team, 1.0 for All-D 2nd)
Tim Duncan - 19.0
Kevin Garnett - 16.5
Bobby Jones - 16.0
Dennis Rodman - 11.5
Dave DeBusschere - 9.0 (*not awarded his first six seasons)
Kevin McHale - 7.5
Karl Malone - 5.5
Draymond Green - 5.5
Buck Williams - 5.0
Horace Grant - 4.0
Larry Nance - 3.5
Gus Johnson - 3.0 (*not awarded his first five seasons)
Charles Oakley - 2.5
Elvin Hayes - 2.0
Paul Millsap - 1.0
Rasheed Wallace - 0
Bo Outlaw - 0

DPOY shares
Draymond Green - 2.047
Dennis Rodman - 2.038
Kevin Garnett - 1.638
Tim Duncan - 1.025
Bobby Jones - 0.146 (*only awarded his final four seasons)
Kevin McHale - 0.064
Bo Outlaw - 0.051
Buck Williams - 0.043 (*not awarded his rookie year)
Horace Grant - 0.037
Paul Millsap - 0.032
Charles Oakley - 0.030
Larry Nance - 0.026 (*not awarded his rookie year)
Rasheed Wallace - 0.022
Karl Malone - 0.010
***Not awarded during the careers of DeBusschere, Johnson, or any except the final two seasons of Hayes

DWS
Tim Duncan - 106.3
Karl Malone - 92.4
Kevin Garnett - 91.5
Elvin Hayes - 83.7
Charles Oakley - 63.3
Buck Williams - 61.8
Rasheed Wallace - 57.1
Dennis Rodman - 54.5
Horace Grant - 49.3
Dave DeBusschere - 47.7
Larry Nance - 44.6
Bobby Jones - 43.2
Paul Millsap - 39.4
Kevin McHale - 37.1
Bo Outlaw - 29.3
Gus Johnson - 25.2
Draymond Green - 24.5

Career rDRTG
Tim Duncan: -9.5
Dennis Rodman: -7.0
Draymond Green: -7.0
Kevin Garnett: -6.6
Bobby Jones: -5.8
Elvin Hayes: -5.5 (*missing his first five seasons)
Karl Malone: -5.2
Dave DeBusschere: -4.7 (*only available for his final season, though in DD’s case, it’s likely a fairly accurate representation of his career mark)
Rasheed Wallace: -4.5
Charles Oakley: -4.4
Paul Millsap: -4.0
Larry Nance: -3.5
Bo Outlaw: -3.4
Buck Williams: -3.3
Horace Grant: -2.0
Kevin McHale: -1.4
**Not available for Gus Johnson’s career

Career DBPM
Tim Duncan: +4.0
Bo Outlaw: +4.0
Draymond Green: +3.8
Kevin Garnett: +3.3
Bobby Jones: +2.9
Dennis Rodman: +2.8
Charles Oakley: +2.3
Larry Nance: +2.3
Paul Millsap: +2.2
Karl Malone: +1.8
Horace Grant: +1.8
Dave DeBusschere: +1.6 (*only available for his final season, though in DD’s case, it’s likely a fairly accurate representation of his career mark)
Rasheed Wallace: +1.5
Elvin Hayes: +1.3 (*missing his first five seasons)
Buck Williams: +1.3
Kevin McHale: +0.3
**Not available for Gus Johnson’s career

Career Cumulative DVOR
Kevin Garnett - 197,104.8
Tim Duncan - 179,675.5
Rasheed Wallace - 110,512.8
Elvin Hayes - 102,458.6
Horace Grant - 74,632.9
Bo Outlaw - 72,806.7
Karl Malone - 70,363.5
Charles Oakley - 67,043.8
Buck Williams - 63,293.4
Larry Nance - 56,202.55
Dennis Rodman - 50,665.3
Paul Millsap - 50,556.3
Draymond Green - 49,402.7
Bobby Jones - 48,353.1
Dave DeBusschere - 48,191.2
Kevin McHale - 28,238.4
Gus Johnson - 21,446.2

Avg DVOR per season (full career)
Tim Duncan - 9,456.6
Kevin Garnett - 9,385.9
Draymond Green - 8,233.8
Rasheed Wallace - 6,950.5
Elvin Hayes - 6,403.7
Bo Outlaw - 4,853.8 (NOTE: his avg is hurt by lingering multiple seasons while barely playing)
Horace Grant - 4,390.2
Larry Nance - 4,323.3
Paul Millsap - 4,213.0
Bobby Jones - 4,029.4
Dave DeBusschere - 4,015.9
Dennis Rodman - 3,808.7
Buck Williams - 3,723.1
Charles Oakley - 3,704.1
Karl Malone - 3,703.3
Kevin McHale - 2,172.2
Gus Johnson - 2,144.6

Avg DVOR per season in Best 5 Years
Kevin Garnett - 14,732.0
Tim Duncan - 12,925.1
Rasheed Wallace - 11,628.5
Bo Outlaw - 10,040.2
Draymond Green - 9,721.4
Elvin Hayes - 9,327.8
Horace Grant - 7,394.9
Paul Millsap - 6,396.0
Karl Malone - 6,376.6
Charles Oakley - 6,284.0
Larry Nance - 6,208.4
Dennis Rodman - 5,978.6
Dave DeBusschere - 5,755.6
Buck Williams - 5,612.8
Bobby Jones - 5,347.15
Gus Johnson - 3,575.95
Kevin McHale - 3,562.7

Avg DVOR per game in Best 5 years (this category neutralizes any “bias” based on missed games.
Kevin Garnett - 190.3
Tim Duncan - 170.5
Rasheed Wallace - 151.6
Bo Outlaw - 132.5
Draymond Green - 125.3
Elvin Hayes - 114.6
Horace Grant - 97.3
Paul Millsap - 84.2
Dennis Rodman - 81.0
Larry Nance - 78.6
Karl Malone - 78.1
Charles Oakley - 77.4
Dave DeBusschere - 74.2
Buck Williams - 68.8
Bobby Jones - 67.5
Gus Johnson - 53.7
Kevin McHale - 45.6

Peak season DVOR
Tim Duncan - 16,346.1
Kevin Garnett - 15,993.45
Draymond Green - 15,022.8
Rasheed Wallace - 14,623.3
Bo Outlaw - 13,095.4
Elvin Hayes - 11,954.25
Horace Grant - 9,670.35
Karl Malone - 8,488.95
Larry Nance - 8,304.9
Dennis Rodman - 7,757.35
Paul Millsap - 7,684.75
Bobby Jones - 7,619.85
Charles Oakley - 6,882.5
Dave DeBusschere - 6,436.15
Buck Williams - 6,366.15
Gus Johnson - 5,108.25
Kevin McHale - 4,081.0

[trex_8063]

I kinda figured Rodman is the favorite for this spot, based on reputation and 2 DPOY's and no notable lack of longevity.

However, as I go over everything I find the top 2 candidates for this spot [to me] are Bobby Jones and Elvin Hayes.

Hayes has a major case partially hung on his longevity and durability: he played 16 seasons and missed 9 games total in that span. And he wasn't sitting on the bench 16-20 minutes per game during his prime: he averaged >36 mpg every year for the first 14 seasons, >40 mpg in NINE seasons, peaking at 45.1 mpg and leading the league in mpg twice.

What that means is whatever positive influence he can exert defensively, it's not disappearing on you for long stretches of the game or sitting out a dozen games a year. It's basically ALWAYS there.

Hayes is someone who's looked good to me defensively in the Bullets games I've watched (in fact, I'm not convinced he wasn't the true anchor of many of those good defenses). Similar to Duncan, his role on defense frequently seemed more like the C, and he was the primary rim-protector for his teams, while also maintaining some solid rebounding rates. LA Bird already posted some before/after snap-shots on the team defenses he helped anchor.
And although he lags behind in accolades, it's clear from my above post that he's nearer the top of the remaining candidates in nearly everything else. So he's a solid pick, imo.


On to Bobby Jones......
For the record, although these are often the guys who seem to catch the media's attention and garner accolades (Bowen, Rodman, Moncrief), I'm skeptical on just how much broad defensive impact being a versatile "stopper" produces. But at any rate Bobby Jones was more than just a versatile stopper. It's true he often would draw the assignment of guarding the more dangerous threats on the opponents, but unlike Rodman (or Bowen) there was a lot more that he did by way of help D or generating turnovers than they did.
Consider his career avg for (Stl + Blk)/100 poss is [I believe] higher than the entire rest of the field, at 4.8 (2.5 stl, 2.3 blk).
Tim Duncan avg 4.5, Draymond Green 4.3, Kevin Garnett 4.0 (or for that matter some wings: Michael Jordan 4.2, Kawhi Leonard 4.2, Scottie Pippen 4.1). Jones tops them all. And he does this without gambling. He's just long and athletic and he picks his spots, and he's typically got himself in a good position to be useful.
And though his rebounding numbers are smallish for a PF, one thing I'll say for Jones wrt rebounding (for whatever it's worth): he boxes out. I can't say for certain exactly how much "additional" credit for that should be given, but I generally suspect that guys who consistently box out on the defensive boards (as opposed to chasing rebounds) are more beneficial toward the team DReb% than their individual rebounding numbers would imply.

And thanks to an exec who was ahead of his time, we have some on/off data for some of those old Sixer teams, and Bobby's defensive on/off was solid year after year....
'80: -3.1
'81: -7.0 (for reference: the best defensive on/off Gobert's ever had while playing relevant minutes was -7.2)
'82: -3.1
'83: -1.3

So I sort of suspect the EI defensive splits marginally undersell Bobby's defensive impact. During the '80 Finals [which I've been re-watching some of], Brent Musburger refers to him as "the remarkable Bobby Jones" after a defensive play; Hot Rod Hundley called him "a defensive phenom".

He's the top of the heap in terms of All-D honors, too, fwiw.
So idk, he seems like a really good candidate here, too. I'll make up my mind between these two and post my vote by this evening.