#5 Greatest Defensive PF All-Time: Top 10 Defensively at each position project

[trex_8063]

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman


And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Draymond Green
Larry Nance
Bo Outlaw
Rasheed Wallace
Dave DeBusschere
Elvin Hayes
Gus Johnson
Kevin McHale
Horace Grant
Paul Millsap
Anthony Mason
Buck Williams
Maurice Lucas
Karl Malone
Paul Silas
PJ Brown
Charles Oakley
Dan Roundfield
Jermaine O'Neal
Josh Smith
Serge Ibaka
Bob Love
AC Green
Maurice Stokes
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Lonnie Shelton
Clifford Robinson
Bill Bridges
Rudy LaRusso
[/b]



Hi guys

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[iggymcfrack]

Definitely Draymond now. Far more impactful than anyone remaining.

[Samurai]

Repeating my vote for Dave DeBusschere. Six-time All Defensive First Team member, and that number would have been much more if such an award existed during the first six years of his career. Had the ability to guard wings on the perimeter as well as power forwards in the low post. Some players put more effort on offense and tend to take a few plays off on defense; DeBusschere was definitely NOT one of those players. He always put in tremendous effort on defense - always willing and able to move his feet and put a body on someone.

My guess is that many posters who did not watch him play live will not vote for him. Playing in an era lacking advanced stats, I would suspect that those voters will vote for more recent players. My vote for him is based largely on the eye test, which goes beyond Youtube clips. Fortunately, the Knicks were on TV more than any other team back then, so if you enjoyed watching basketball on TV, you had a chance to see more of DeBusschere than fans who did not watch as much.

[kendogg]

Elvin Hayes is my vote.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Dave DeBusschere. The respect for his defense in his time was immense, they put him 1st team every year from the inception of the all defense teams until he retired, and despite being a rich man's role player made NBA top 50 (to put it in perspective, Bobby Jones is not in the HOF). He screams high impact player overall, when the Knicks got him they were a 18-17 loser franchise, and then immediately became nearly untouchable going 26-3 in his first 29 games (finishing 36-11 overall with him) before losing to Celtics in playoffs, and then in 1970 won 60 games (26-2 start) and the title. Some of that is also being a solid offensive option and floor spacer, but a lot had to be D. From what I read he was a blanket defensively, sounds somewhat like Bruce Bowen ability to get into people's airspace, but is also a mobile PF due to being an original stretch big

[SkyHookFTW]

Tough choices here, but I will also go with Dave DeBusschere. His versitility, being able to guard 1-4, and hi-end motor on the defensive end made him a force. Sort of a shorter version of Bobby Jones with lesser blocks and steals (less length and hops than Jones) but better rebounding numbers as he had to take that role, unlike Jones who played with good rebounders more often than not. I mention his rebounding, as the vast majority of his boards came on the defensive end. He could get pushed around a bit by the really big centers, but that's no knock on him, as it is expected from someone who was maybe 6'6"-6'7" and 220'ish in size. Injured early in his career (second season IIRC), he was almost always available to play up to the end of his career.

I must admit, Green and Hayes are my next two in some order.

[penbeast0]

Where are all our numbers people?

Lots of good choices. I am looking at Green and DeBusschere among others but right now leaning Paul Silas. He was the poster boy for the dirty work defensive minded banger at PF that was also the realm of guys like Charles Oakley, Buck
Williams, Bill Bridges, etc. Great leader as a player.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Draymond is looking like a repeat of Kawhi.
If longevity did not matter then Draymond is probably the correct choice now.

DeBusschere did everything right but I have doubts about his era. I would have like to see him dominate Happy Hairston, 35 year old Elgin Baylor and 33 Bill Bridges. He did not dominate them. He was on the all defensive team but was his competition good enough? Was DeBusschere really in Larry Nance's class as an Athlete? Nance is taller, faster and jumps better.

DeBusschere reminds me a bit of Draymond but I think Draymond is considerably better. I also think McHale is considerably better than DeBusschere.

Nance is probably the best athlete and he is tall. I am not clear on Gus Johnson but maybe he is the best athlete. Giants is in the running for best Athlete but I think Nance was a better athlete. I think Nance was a better athlete than Rasheed and JO.

Nance spent a lot of his career at small forwad.

I am not totally clear on Nance's consistency and on Nance's man to man defense and subtle defense. Nance's rim protection was very good.

I am clear on McHale's man to man defense, consistency and subtle defense. McHale was a defensive monster. If McHale's feet had only been a little faster then this would be no contest. I think McHale with KG's foot speed would be better than Duncan and KG. But McHale had slow feet but that did not matter much because his arms were so long that in a half court defense players could blaze past his slow feet and still not get past his hand. McHale had to defend guys like Dominique Wilkins because Bird could not defend them. McHale would have had better defensive rebounding stats and better shot blocking stats if he did not have to spend half of his defensive minutes defending small forwards that were too quick for Bird. Still McHale had good stats.

Barkley called McHale the best defender that he ever faced.

I think McHale has to get on the list before DeBusschere.
I think Elvin Hayes should get in before DeBusschere.
Maybe AC Green and others should get in before DeBusschere

I don't think DeBusschere is the correct answer here. I think he is here because of his awards and because of the drama of the Knicks championships. If DeBusschere played his whole career in Detroit would we be considering him at this level? If DeBusschere was not white would his reputation still be as good?

Does DeBusschere's role as a team leader deserve to counted as a defensive skill?

Is Draymond Green really disqualified for lack of longevity?

Vote McHale
Switch my vote to Draymond Green if that stops DeBusschere from getting in at this level.
I also would vote Hayes over DeBusschere in a tie breaker.

[penbeast0]

Nance played a little SF early in his career in Phoenix. I don't remember him playing significant amounts there after his first few years, instead switching to center at times to take advantage of his shot blocking. He was taller and could jump higher than most of these guys; remember he won the NBA's first slam dunk championship over Julius Erving, among others. His weakness defensively *which he improved on throughout his career) was holding position in the post; his nickname was "the Thin Man," which might help explain why.

McHale was another very solid defender, again more of a post guy than someone you wanted defending out on the floor. It was more Bird's weakness than McHale's strength that had him guarding quick forward though; watch Adrian Dantley make Bird look confused and abused in the ECF when he was with Detroit to see why Boston would often try to use McHale instead.

Both these guys are not good rebounders compared to many of their competitors too. Still, both are in my tentative top 10. Nance is probably the greatest shotblocking forward I ever saw (Kirilenko may be better) and McHale might be even higher if he's been able to play center defensively which played more to his strengths in terms of post footwork and defending against low post scoring.

[Gibson22]

From now on I swear I will open every thread

[Gibson22]

Draymond, silas, debusschere, hayes, gus, silas, oakley are the guys that should be considered for me. I'll see

[Johnny Firpo]

Draymond for sure.

[Owly]

Nance played a little SF early in his career in Phoenix. I don't remember him playing significant amounts there after his first few years, instead switching to center at times to take advantage of his shot blocking. He was taller and could jump higher than most of these guys; remember he won the NBA's first slam dunk championship over Julius Erving, among others. His weakness defensively *which he improved on throughout his career) was holding position in the post; his nickname was "the Thin Man," which might help explain why.

Hmm, they've got Edwards and Adams both starting most of the time through 86 (plus chunks of guys like Maurice Lucas, Charles "Not THE Charles Jones" Jones and then Ed Pinckney), by 87 the center is about covered by Adams, Bedford and Gattison with Pinckney taking most of the PF starts. It would seem in Phoenix he was mostly an SF, at least in terms of his notional starting position. As such "his first years" and not "significant amounts" after, whilst woolly, maybe undersells how much SF he played.

Somewhat related, for those interested in Nance see: Realgm 2017 100 thread for a discussion on the degree of trouble powerful forwards gave him and a generally pro-Nance's defense take (mostly my post 10).


On DeBusschere I do understand it being worthwhile looking at or at least being aware of did he get more credit for being white or what happens if he stays in Detroit. There's a possibility these factors and the Knicks' fame propelled him forward in the popular imagination where an equally good forward might have been ignored. That said once he's at the table I suspect/hope most here are judging on the merits and using good evidence. Maybe it was positional adjustments and him being the last piece but just one piece but there's an obvious improvement, hinting at impact, on arrival in NY and he shows up fairly strong in WoWY. This doesn't mean I'd necessarily take him here but I think there are sensible, real cases for him being in the discussion.


Anyone got any info on Roundfield? Or thoughts. Not necessarily for consideration here. Might just be the good/very good but not great thing, or that he isn't important to the narrative of history in terms of being on a contender but in the little bit of qualitative info I've got (mainly Hollander yearly handbooks) and a fairly impressive defensive boxscore in his prime but I don't here much general discussion about him anywhere (not that I'm expecting him to come up all the time, but even relative to low level expectations).

[pandrade83]

Sticking with Elvin Hayes

-Anchored elite defenses - some of those with bad overall players - for a long time
-Led league in DWS 3 X
-Led league in rebounding 2 X
-Was no worse than 8th in blocks since they tracked it through '81 & no worse than 5th through '77.

Dray is next on the list for me

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Nance played a little SF early in his career in Phoenix. I don't remember him playing significant amounts there after his first few years, instead switching to center at times to take advantage of his shot blocking. He was taller and could jump higher than most of these guys; remember he won the NBA's first slam dunk championship over Julius Erving, among others. His weakness defensively *which he improved on throughout his career) was holding position in the post; his nickname was "the Thin Man," which might help explain why.

McHale was another very solid defender, again more of a post guy than someone you wanted defending out on the floor. It was more Bird's weakness than McHale's strength that had him guarding quick forward though; watch Adrian Dantley make Bird look confused and abused in the ECF when he was with Detroit to see why Boston would often try to use McHale instead.

Both these guys are not good rebounders compared to many of their competitors too. Still, both are in my tentative top 10. Nance is probably the greatest shotblocking forward I ever saw (Kirilenko may be better) and McHale might be even higher if he's been able to play center defensively which played more to his strengths in terms of post footwork and defending against low post scoring.

McHale and Nance both spent a a lot of time defending small forwards. That had to hurt their defensive rebounding numbers and blocks.

McHale defended small forwards because of Bird's weakness. Still McHale's foot work and positioning were perfect in the same way that Klay Thompson had great foot work and position when defending a smaller faster player like Kyrie. McHale was a very smart defender.

Nance played small forward because he could play small forward and because Hot Rod Williams was too good to not play.

I also remember Nance playing some center. Daugherty, Nance and Hot Rod were often injured and at those times Nance was probably exclusively a power forward. Hot Rod was on the bench for Jordan's shot over Ehlo but Nance was a small forward for most of that game.

Here is Nance's playoff position time splits based on adding the minutes of Brad Daugherty, Hod Rod, Tree Rollins, Mokeski, Danny Ferry and some other guy and then giving Nance all the left over power forward minutes and calling Nance a small forward for the rest of his minutes.

1989 16 minutes at PF, 23 at minutes at SF
1990 15 minutes at PF, 17 at minutes at SF
1991 team to injured to make the playoffs
1992 19 minutes at PF, 21 minutes at SF
1993 16 minutes at PF, 20 at minutes at SF

Here are Rebounding numbers per regular season career per 100 possessions
Nance 11.6
McHale 11.4
Rasheed Wallace 11.0
Bobby Jones 10.2

Bobby Jones also played some small forward.

I enjoyed rembering that Cavs team.

[penbeast0]

I bow to greater memory; I didn't remember Nance playing SF with the Cavs much (but do remember Pinckney trying to play SF so maybe I had the wrong guy guarding the opposing 3).

[70sFan]

Draymond is looking like a repeat of Kawhi.
If longevity did not matter then Draymond is probably the correct choice now.

DeBusschere did everything right but I have doubts about his era. I would have like to see him dominate Happy Hairston, 35 year old Elgin Baylor and 33 Bill Bridges. He did not dominate them. He was on the all defensive team but was his competition good enough? Was DeBusschere really in Larry Nance's class as an Athlete? Nance is taller, faster and jumps better.

DeBusschere reminds me a bit of Draymond but I think Draymond is considerably better. I also think McHale is considerably better than DeBusschere.

Nance is probably the best athlete and he is tall. I am not clear on Gus Johnson but maybe he is the best athlete. Giants is in the running for best Athlete but I think Nance was a better athlete. I think Nance was a better athlete than Rasheed and JO.

Nance spent a lot of his career at small forwad.

I am not totally clear on Nance's consistency and on Nance's man to man defense and subtle defense. Nance's rim protection was very good.

I am clear on McHale's man to man defense, consistency and subtle defense. McHale was a defensive monster. If McHale's feet had only been a little faster then this would be no contest. I think McHale with KG's foot speed would be better than Duncan and KG. But McHale had slow feet but that did not matter much because his arms were so long that in a half court defense players could blaze past his slow feet and still not get past his hand. McHale had to defend guys like Dominique Wilkins because Bird could not defend them. McHale would have had better defensive rebounding stats and better shot blocking stats if he did not have to spend half of his defensive minutes defending small forwards that were too quick for Bird. Still McHale had good stats.

Barkley called McHale the best defender that he ever faced.

I think McHale has to get on the list before DeBusschere.
I think Elvin Hayes should get in before DeBusschere.
Maybe AC Green and others should get in before DeBusschere

I don't think DeBusschere is the correct answer here. I think he is here because of his awards and because of the drama of the Knicks championships. If DeBusschere played his whole career in Detroit would we be considering him at this level? If DeBusschere was not white would his reputation still be as good?

Does DeBusschere's role as a team leader deserve to counted as a defensive skill?

Is Draymond Green really disqualified for lack of longevity?

Vote McHale
Switch my vote to Draymond Green if that stops DeBusschere from getting in at this level.
I also would vote Hayes over DeBusschere in a tie breaker.

Debusschere isn't the athlete Nance is and neither is Green. I'd like to ask you - have you seen enough of Dave to question his impact? I've never seen any game in which he didn't look very impressive for me. He wasn't unathletic, I think that because he's white some people assume so. He was quick for a PF and was very strong for his size. He wasn't any worse than Green in terms of athleticism, the only advantage Green has in my eyes is his length.

Dave has reputation of defensive anchor even before he got traded to the Knicks. I know that sometimes the aura of city can change the perception of the player, but that's not the case here. Debusschere was elite help defender, very intense against his man, really good post defender for his size. I'd say that he's slightly worse defender than Green because Draymond can protect the rim better but Dave has much longer and more consistent career.

You can argue that McHale or Green are better, but Debusschere deserves high spot because of his impact, not because of some agendas. AC Green over him is actually quite funny for me who watched many games of both.


BTW, my vote goes for Elvin Hayes. Arguably the best defender left with the best longevity. I don't know even whether the guys like Green have better peaks, let alone full career. Big E was a real defensive anchor - elitd rebounder and shotblocker, great at rim protection and help defense. He wasn't slow either - not the most nimble but underrated athlete with good size and length.

[70sFan]

Definitely Draymond now. Far more impactful than anyone remaining.

How is be far more impactful than Big E?

[LA Bird]

Copying over my vote from before...

I would say Hayes is #3 behind Duncan/KG. He has a sizeable longevity advantage over everybody else and he was consistently on great defensive teams during his prime. Both the Rockets and Bullets improved defensively when Hayes joined the team:

Rockets team DRtg
1968: +2.0 (before Hayes)
1969: -2.7
1970: -2.2
1971: -1.7
1972: -1.1
1973: +2.6 (after Hayes)

Bullets team DRtg
1972: -0.3 (before Hayes)
1973: -3.5
1974: -3.5
1975: -6.4
1976: -3.0
1977: -1.1
1978: -0.4
1979: -1.1

Individually, he averaged 2+ blocks and is a great rebounder even after pace adjustment (~16 TRB% for his career). He is the only PF ever with over 8 DWS in a season (74, 75) and was likely the best defensive player in the league in 1975 considering how dominant the Bullets' defense was that season.

Vote: Elvin Hayes

Draymond has been highly impactful the last few seasons but if we are looking at him, why not Bo Outlaw who was also regularly among league leaders in DRAPM? Weak longevity is a problem for both of these guys though so the key candidates I am considering next is DeBusschere and Rasheed.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

.

Dave has reputation of defensive anchor even before he got traded to the Knicks. I know that sometimes the aura of city can change the perception of the player, but that's not the case here. Debusschere was elite help defender, very intense against his man, really good post defender for his size. I'd say that he's slightly worse defender than Green because Draymond can protect the rim better but Dave has much longer and more consistent career.

You can argue that McHale or Green are better, but Debusschere deserves high spot because of his impact, not because of some agendas. AC Green over him is actually quite funny for me who watched many games of both.


BTW, my vote goes for Elvin Hayes. Arguably the best defender left with the best longevity. I don't know even whether the guys like Green have better peaks, let alone full career. Big E was a real defensive anchor - elitd rebounder and shotblocker, great at rim protection and help defense. He wasn't slow either - not the most nimble but underrated athlete with good size and length.

I only saw Debusschere in a bunch of game videos from the 3 Lakers Knicks finals. If he never became a Knick I never would have seen him. Knowing media and human nature I am suspicious about how much being a Knick champion elevated his status. I also am suspicious about the effects of race from that era through the 1980s. I don't think racism would create an edge today in the perceived defense of white vs black players now but I think it might have mattered then.

Race probably did not effect coaches much when they voted for defensive teams.

My impression of Debusschere being something like a not quite as good Draymond Battier cross comes from those game videos. It has been a while since I watched those videos so I am not even sure of my what I saw.

Based on what I think I saw, I would prefer that Debusschere not get on the list until the 7th spot or later.

I just watched some Warriors Bullets game video and I also have doubts about Hayes. I have not seen early Hayes other than his college game vs Kareem . Other than shot blocking was Hayes really better than Buck Williams?