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Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere


And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Draymond Green
Larry Nance
Bo Outlaw
Rasheed Wallace
Gus Johnson
Kevin McHale
Horace Grant
Paul Millsap
Anthony Mason
Buck Williams
Maurice Lucas
Karl Malone
Paul Silas
PJ Brown
Charles Oakley
Dan Roundfield
Jermaine O'Neal
Josh Smith
Serge Ibaka
Bob Love
AC Green
Maurice Stokes
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Lonnie Shelton
Clifford Robinson
Bill Bridges
Rudy LaRusso
[/b]



Hi guys

Vote Draymond Green

With 4 DPOY caliber years I think he is more dominant than players like Sheed and McHale

On pure defensive impact Draymond Green is the best player left on that list. Eye test, stats, and his positive role in taking on all bigs on the court on one of the NBA GOAT teams have me casting my vote to Draymond.

Still Green

Draymond Green. Too good peak to pass him here.

Green

I'm amazed that we're already at number 7 and there are still so many great candidates left. And the center position is only going to be harder.

I agree with everybody else, it's time for Draymond Green to make the list.

Is Dray going to be unanimous?

Do you guys think that the SF position has more great defenders than the PF one?

lebron3-14-3 wrote:Do you guys think that the SF position has more great defenders than the PF one?

Short answer: no.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:Do you guys think that the SF position has more great defenders than the PF one?

Definitely not. I think at least three or four of the guys on the SF list, and maybe even more, are or were less valuable on defense than whoever will get the number 10 spot on the PF list was/is.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:Do you guys think that the SF position has more great defenders than the PF one?

No. PF's are historically the most versatile defenders that can switch from man defenders to rim protectors. Though probably a bit too much voting preference to the man defenders, because in no way can a PF rack up as many blocks as a full time center. Case in point, a system guy like Draymond getting DPOY and as many early votes as he has in this project. Man defending or rim protecting specialists are easier to notice than the versatile guy who can do a bit of everything.

For my vote though I'm going Kevin McHale. He was not only a great man defender, but also a great post defender and rim protector (which Dray is good not great IMO...not tall or strong enough). I think HoGrant and Karl Malone are arguably better than Dray as well. But at this point in the list, it is harder to be sure of my picks.

As an aside, I think we need more than 10 picks for center. I think we could go 20 for center and name players who are better defensively than several people already named.

BTW, I'd like to see what do you think about Gus Johnson. We don’t have much tape of him available but what we have is extremely impressive. He blocked a lot of shots despite being short (he seemed to have long arms), he boxed out like mad and he played passing lanes. Very physical defender too. I don't know much about his impact stats but I don't think we have anyone left who impressed me as much as him.

McHale for me as well.

70sFan wrote:BTW, I'd like to see what do you think about Gus Johnson. We don’t have much tape of him available but what we have is extremely impressive. He blocked a lot of shots despite being short (he seemed to have long arms), he boxed out like mad and he played passing lanes. Very physical defender too. I don't know much about his impact stats but I don't think we have anyone left who impressed me as much as him.

I think highly of his defense we just have so little data on that era that we have to rely more on eye test. I've watched a bit of him but I'm not old enough to have seen those games live and most of the 60's footage I've watched is of Wilt or Bill. Everything I've read watched though says that he's the 2nd best defensive forward of his era after Debusschere. Gus was a top 3 athlete of his era as well and like Wilt or Dr J could make some insane blocks. Some say he could touch the top of the backboard like globetrotter Wilt.

Draymond Green

cecilthesheep wrote:I'm amazed that we're already at number 7 and there are still so many great candidates left. And the center position is only going to be harder.

I agree with everybody else, it's time for Draymond Green to make the list.

I think the center position, while clearly more defensive impact, should be easier to stratify as people have thought more about the defensive impact of the top centers and they have been discussed more. Still should be some serious wrangling though, with super controversial players like Wilt (and Mikan) out there.

Sticking with Draymond Green

I’m once again going to provide some categorical ranked comparisons of 18 different candidates (well, 18 including those who’ve already been voted in).

The DVOR (Defensive Value Over Replacement) cited below is NOT to be confused with DVORP (as in something derived from the VORP numbers on bbref). DVOR utilizes DRAPM and minutes played, and attempts to illuminate the defensive value above a replacement level player [set at -0.75 DRAPM] per season in best years, per game in best years, per career, as so forth as indicated in headers.
However, DRAPM only exists for ‘97 and after. I utilized rs APM [on/off stat] combined with shutupandjam’s Estimated Impact [a box-derived figure] defensive split to make an “educated estimate” for DRAPM for ‘94-’96. And then I just used straight Estimated Impact defensive split for years prior to ‘94. I know this isn’t ideal or true apples to apples, but I wanted a means to include older players in all these broad categories.
I’ve looked at a lot of these now, and fwiw I get the feeling the EI defensive split will UNDER-estimate more often than over-estimating. I get the feeling it rated Elvin Hayes pretty fairly, but for many of these players (like Dave DeBusschere, Gus Johnson, Dennis Rodman, or Buck Williams as examples), the splits just don’t look quite right. We even have some supportive evidence to suggest this is the case for player whose career span into the RAPM era [e.g. Buck Williams]. I think for several of these guys EI basically just “evens things out”--->marginally over-rating their offensive imprint while UNDER-rating them defensively. Bobby Jones likely underrated in general by the EI metric, at least based on the early 80's on/off numbers he had for Sixers.
Anyway, bear that grain of salt in mind with the following.
Also…..
*All box-derived metrics are excluding the current ‘19 season.
**ALL seasons have been pro-rated to full 82-game season (for both DVOR and DWS).

All-Defensive Honors “Points” (awarding 1.5 pts for each All-D 1st Team, 1.0 for All-D 2nd)
Tim Duncan - 19.0
Kevin Garnett - 16.5
Bobby Jones - 16.0
Dennis Rodman - 11.5
Dave DeBusschere - 9.0 (*not awarded his first six seasons)
Kevin McHale - 7.5
Paul Silas - 6.0
Karl Malone - 5.5
Draymond Green - 5.5
Buck Williams - 5.0
Horace Grant - 4.0
Larry Nance - 3.5
Gus Johnson - 3.0 (*not awarded his first five seasons)
Charles Oakley - 2.5
Elvin Hayes - 2.0
Paul Millsap - 1.0
Rasheed Wallace - 0
Bo Outlaw - 0

DPOY shares
Draymond Green - 2.047
Dennis Rodman - 2.038
Kevin Garnett - 1.638
Tim Duncan - 1.025
Bobby Jones - 0.146 (*only awarded his final four seasons)
Kevin McHale - 0.064
Bo Outlaw - 0.051
Buck Williams - 0.043 (*not awarded his rookie year)
Horace Grant - 0.037
Paul Millsap - 0.032
Charles Oakley - 0.030
Larry Nance - 0.026 (*not awarded his rookie year)
Rasheed Wallace - 0.022
Karl Malone - 0.010
***Not awarded during the careers of DeBusschere, Johnson, Silas, or any except the final two seasons of Hayes

DWS
Tim Duncan - 106.3
Karl Malone - 92.4
Kevin Garnett - 91.5
Elvin Hayes - 83.7
Charles Oakley - 63.3
Buck Williams - 61.8
Rasheed Wallace - 57.1
Dennis Rodman - 54.5
Paul Silas - 51.8
Horace Grant - 49.3
Dave DeBusschere - 48.0
Larry Nance - 44.6
Bobby Jones - 43.2
Paul Millsap - 39.4
Kevin McHale - 37.1
Bo Outlaw - 29.3
Gus Johnson - 25.4
Draymond Green - 24.5

Career rDRTG
Tim Duncan: -9.5
Dennis Rodman: -7.0
Draymond Green: -7.0
Kevin Garnett: -6.6
Bobby Jones: -5.8
Elvin Hayes: -5.5(*missing his first five seasons)
Karl Malone: -5.2
Dave DeBusschere: -4.7 (*only available for his final season, though in DD’s case, it’s likely a fairly accurate representation of his career mark)
Rasheed Wallace: -4.5
Charles Oakley: -4.4
Paul Millsap: -4.0
Paul Silas: -3.5 (*only available for his last seven seasons)
Larry Nance: -3.5
Bo Outlaw: -3.4
Buck Williams: -3.3
Horace Grant: -2.0
Kevin McHale: -1.4
**Not available for Gus Johnson’s career

Career DBPM
Tim Duncan: +4.0
Bo Outlaw: +4.0
Draymond Green: +3.8
Kevin Garnett: +3.3
Bobby Jones: +2.9
Dennis Rodman: +2.8
Charles Oakley: +2.3
Larry Nance: +2.3
Paul Millsap: +2.2
Karl Malone: +1.8
Horace Grant: +1.8
Dave DeBusschere: +1.6 (*only available for his final season, though in DD’s case, it’s likely a fairly accurate representation of his career mark)
Rasheed Wallace: +1.5
Elvin Hayes: +1.3 (*missing his first five seasons)
Paul Silas: +1.3 (*only available his last seven seasons)
Buck Williams: +1.3
Kevin McHale: +0.3
**Not available for Gus Johnson’s career

Career Cumulative DVOR
Kevin Garnett - 197,104.8
Tim Duncan - 179,675.5
Rasheed Wallace - 110,512.8
Elvin Hayes - 102,458.6
Horace Grant - 74,632.9
Bo Outlaw - 72,806.7
Karl Malone - 70,363.5
Charles Oakley - 67,043.8
Buck Williams - 63,293.4
Larry Nance - 56,202.55
Dennis Rodman - 50,665.3
Paul Millsap - 50,556.3
Draymond Green - 49,402.7
Bobby Jones - 48,353.1
Dave DeBusschere - 48,191.2
Paul Silas - 43,313.2
Kevin McHale - 28,238.4
Gus Johnson - 21,446.2

Avg DVOR per season (full career)
Tim Duncan - 9,456.6
Kevin Garnett - 9,385.9
Draymond Green - 8,233.8
Rasheed Wallace - 6,950.5
Elvin Hayes - 6,403.7
Bo Outlaw - 4,853.8 (NOTE: his avg is hurt by lingering multiple seasons while barely playing)
Horace Grant - 4,390.2
Larry Nance - 4,323.3
Paul Millsap - 4,213.0
Bobby Jones - 4,029.4
Dave DeBusschere - 4,015.9
Dennis Rodman - 3,808.7
Buck Williams - 3,723.1
Charles Oakley - 3,704.1
Karl Malone - 3,703.3
Paul Silas - 2,707.1
Kevin McHale - 2,172.2
Gus Johnson - 2,144.6

Avg DVOR per season in Best 5 Years
Kevin Garnett - 14,732.0
Tim Duncan - 12,925.1
Rasheed Wallace - 11,628.5
Bo Outlaw - 10,040.2
Draymond Green - 9,721.4
Elvin Hayes - 9,327.8
Horace Grant - 7,394.9
Paul Millsap - 6,396.0
Karl Malone - 6,376.6
Charles Oakley - 6,284.0
Larry Nance - 6,208.4
Dennis Rodman - 5,978.6
Dave DeBusschere - 5,755.6
Buck Williams - 5,612.8
Bobby Jones - 5,347.15
Paul Silas - 4,603.9
Gus Johnson - 3,575.95
Kevin McHale - 3,562.7

Avg DVOR per game in Best 5 years (this category neutralizes any “bias” based on missed games)
Kevin Garnett - 190.3
Tim Duncan - 170.5
Rasheed Wallace - 151.6
Bo Outlaw - 132.5
Draymond Green - 125.3
Elvin Hayes - 114.6
Horace Grant - 97.3
Paul Millsap - 84.2
Dennis Rodman - 81.0
Larry Nance - 78.6
Karl Malone - 78.1
Charles Oakley - 77.4
Dave DeBusschere - 74.2
Buck Williams - 68.8
Bobby Jones - 67.5
Paul Silas - 57.0
Gus Johnson - 53.7
Kevin McHale - 45.6

Peak season DVOR
Tim Duncan - 16,346.1
Kevin Garnett - 15,993.45
Draymond Green - 15,022.8
Rasheed Wallace - 14,623.3
Bo Outlaw - 13,095.4
Elvin Hayes - 11,954.25
Horace Grant - 9,670.35
Karl Malone - 8,488.95
Larry Nance - 8,304.9
Dennis Rodman - 7,757.35
Paul Millsap - 7,684.75
Bobby Jones - 7,619.85
Charles Oakley - 6,882.5
Dave DeBusschere - 6,436.15
Buck Williams - 6,366.15
Paul Silas - 5,890.5
Gus Johnson - 5,108.25
Kevin McHale - 4,081.0

trex_8063 wrote:...The DVOR (Defensive Value Over Replacement) cited below is NOT to be confused with DVORP (as in something derived from the VORP numbers on bbref). DVOR utilizes DRAPM and minutes played, and attempts to illuminate the defensive value above a replacement level player [set at -0.75 DRAPM] per season in best years, per game in best years, per career, as so forth as indicated in headers.
However, DRAPM only exists for ‘97 and after. I utilized rs APM [on/off stat] combined with shutupandjam’s Estimated Impact [a box-derived figure] defensive split to make an “educated estimate” for DRAPM for ‘94-’96. And then I just used straight Estimated Impact defensive split for years prior to ‘94. I know this isn’t ideal or true apples to apples, but I wanted a means to include older players in all these broad categories.

Interesting that Silas, Gus Johnson, and Kevin McHale all rate at the bottom of virtually every DVOR list (career, average, peak, etc.) while all three were excellent defenders (having watched them both as contemporaries, I was more impressed by Silas than Gus defensively although (a) Gus had more offensive responsibility and (b) Gus had suffered knee injuries by 1969). These are 3 very different types of players. Silas was the dirty work intimidator/banger who bodied everyone, set picks, boxed out, etc. . . sort of the prototype for guys like Maurice Lucas, Charles Oakley. Gus was the hyper-athlete who (if I remember) used to hold the record for most broken backboards when Darryl Dawkins shattered his famous one in Kansas City. McHale was sort of Tim Duncan light, mobile but not fluid defensively, vertical shotblocker type. What does the stat look for in these older players and why do you think it rates them so low?