RealGM

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Larry Nance
Bo Outlaw
Rasheed Wallace
Gus Johnson
Horace Grant
Paul Millsap
Anthony Mason
Buck Williams
Maurice Lucas
Karl Malone
Paul Silas
PJ Brown
Charles Oakley
Dan Roundfield
Jermaine O'Neal
Josh Smith
Serge Ibaka
Bob Love
AC Green
Maurice Stokes
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Lonnie Shelton
Clifford Robinson
Bill Bridges
Rudy LaRusso
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Hi guys
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Might leave it open a pinch longer than usual, given it's the holidays.
Happy Holidays to all....

Tentative vote for Paul Silas , although open to arguments for Jermaine O'Neal v. Rasheed Wallace as those seem to be the ones who the evidence supports.

Regarding why J O and Rasheed did not get on all defensive teams, It is hard to get on all defensive teams with KG and Duncan hogging the power forwards slots year after year.

Earlier PJ Brown, Clifford Robinson and Karl Malone got onto the All defensive teams ahead of young J O and Rasheed.

Camby was getting in but Camby was really good and was a center.
I don't see the votes being wrong. Maybe Kobe should not have gotten in but that would not really help J O and Rasheed. Calling Duncan a center might have helped them get in.

http://www.nba.com/history/awards/defensive-team

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Regarding why J O and Rasheed did not get on all defensive teams, It is hard to get on all defensive teams with KG and Duncan hogging the power forwards slots year after year.

Earlier PJ Brown, Clifford Robinson and Karl Malone got onto the All defensive teams ahead of young J O and Rasheed.

Camby was getting in but Camby was really good and was a center.
I don't see the votes being wrong. Maybe Kobe should not have gotten in but that would not really help J O and Rasheed. Calling Duncan a center might have helped them get in.

http://www.nba.com/history/awards/defensive-team

There's no "power forward" slot, there's two forward slots per team. So guys like Kirilenko, Bowen, and Artest were also in play, but it wouldn't have been completely impossible for those guys to steal one. Still a tough era, though.

Despite the lack of accolades, I'm once again going to place a vote for Rasheed Wallace.
As I mentioned in last couple threads, he was as solid low-post defender, good pnr defender, and provided good rim protection (career 2.2 blk/100 poss, peaking at 3.0 when allowed to play C), AND had solid longevity among remaining candidates (>36k rs minutes).

Was a key piece in a ridiculous -12.0 rDRTG (90.9 DRtg, in raw terms) for a partial season--->that was the '04 Piston DRtg after the trade to obtain him. Yes, they were "anchored" by Big Ben, but consider that they were a merely "really good" -3.8 rDRTG prior to the trade (already had Big Ben)......and then the wtf -12.0 after the trade (in an admittedly small sample).
Key piece of a -4.9 rDRTG the following year, and in three Detroit seasons WITHOUT Ben Wallace, the team defenses were -2.3, -4.6, -0.3, respectively.

And as illustrated in prior data aggregates (see last thread; can re-post here if desired), he's got the best overall impact profile of all remaining candidates (for peak, prime, and career whole).

I thougt about putting a poll up on the Blazers board since a lot of these guys played for the Blazer. They did not necessarily peak with the Blazers.

I am thinking about Buck Williams who peaked on Nets team that was usually bad. Buck's nets knocked the defending champion 76ers out of the playoffs. That might have been Buck Williams peak.

Did Buck Williams peak higher defensively than Rasheed, J O, Maurice Lucas and Clifford Robinson. Robinson is my last choice of those five. I love the grit of Lucas and Williams. I love the length and shot blocking ability of J O and Rasheed.

Young Buck Williams was not just strong and gritty. Nets Buck Williams was considerably faster than Blazer Buck Williams.
Statistically Rasheed clearly peaked on the Pistons championship team. It was a high peak.

I don't trust pre plus minus stats to replace plus minus stats.

I'm probably going Rasheed Wallace for this spot (that's not final yet) but Buck Williams is a great mention who I'm thinking about for number 10.

If Rasheed Wallace happens to get this spot, I'm tossing Jermaine O'Neal, Bo Outlaw, Karl Malone, Horace Grant, and maybe Paul Silas around in my head for #10 (Larry Nance, Buck Williams, Charles Oakley more or less right there, too). Too many.....any way you slice it, there are going to be some really nice defensive forwards left off the list.

Repeating my vote for Rasheed Wallace.

I concur that all the data available suggests Rasheed Wallace here.

I feel like O'Neal fit the mold more of a real anchor - he was in that power forward, but he kinda fits like a center spot that big Timmy and older Garnett fit. Jermaine was a fantastic athlete and could keep up with smaller players like Sheed e but defeated them soundly on rim protection and on boards.

Also, crazy how Sheed and O'Neal have no all defense selections...really shows how much of a joke that award is.

My vote goes to Jermaine O'Neal

Refreshing my memory of Young Buck. Just started watching. Not in English.
#

I am leaning towards Rasheed.
I probably should have another look at Nance. I guess I will ignore Outlaw because of his injuries.

Above video, Buck had his short chance to wow me. Good but not good enough.
Now Nance turn. 1989 Bulls vs Cavaliers

31:29 Nance successfully doubles Hodges in the back court and deflects the pass away but it goes out of bounds.
53:33 looks like block by Nance, announcers think so, foul on Nance

What do you think about Horace Grant? He was excellent defender and contribute to some alk-time great teams. I'm not sure he's better than Sheed but he's certainly in discussion.

I think about Silas, Sheed and Grant here. Can't decide at this moment.

Yeah I'm a bit surprised by the lack of mentions of Horace. Maybe most folks only saw him much on the Bulls and think Pippen carried more of the load or something. Pippen basically played the Iggy/Klay role on GSW as the primary perimeter defender and Horace played the Dray role of defensive anchor who was extremely active on help defense.

Horace was perhaps overshadowed by Rodman who was a better rebounder for sure and more versatile man defender, but Horace is the better help defender and post defender.

I was slightly higher on Horace than I was Sheed last round, so I'm sticking with Horace Grant for my vote.

Oh I don't wanna come off as a hater but surprised by so many JO mentions. I feel like his stamina and injuries are a serious concern and while he had some highlight plays his consistent level of defensive effort is not there compared to some others. Also I think he's a more natural Center like Camby.

Oh I think Bo Outlaw deserves a mention at this point in the conversation (though I consider Horace to be a bit better which is why he gets my vote). Bo had a hell of a motor though and utilized his talents to the maximum. Silas perhaps too but I haven't seen much film of him, so it's hard for me to comment. He's a similar player to Bo Outlaw from what I know. Perhaps better but again I'm not confident in my eyeball test here and 60's stats are a mess to compare to modern.

Vote Rasheed Wallace

Caldwell Jones probably should have been on some list of candidates not that he is a top 10. He is a top 20. He is probably 60% power forward and 40% center. I might prefer Caldwell Jones to Horace Grant.

With Grant I always felt like he was non-distinct. He was like a variation on AC Green. Which is fine. Everybody is like somebody.

I'll finalize my vote for Rasheed Wallace. Been watching some tape of the '05 Finals, and his performance against Duncan was really masterful. His consistency may not have been perfect throughout his career, but he could turn it up to such a high level that he'll get my vote here.

Vote Rasheed Wallace. Good advanced stats, one of the best post defenders and a good help defender, and contributed to high ceiling defense

Putting in my vote for Rasheed Wallace as well for previously stated reasons.