The Lebron Thread - 2018 - 2019 - Pt. 2

[LeBird]

You are being a bit harsh to Harden here.

Obviously Harden is going to struggle to compare to arguably a GOAT level offensive player such as Lebron but these kinds of replies are really defense and are more emotional than anything.

It's been detailed a lot so I wont go over it here but at least look at the Harden thread and some of the numbers behind it because what you are saying is pretty disenginous to the incredible year (or at least the last 19 games) that Harden has played.

No, I don't think so at all. People get so enamoured with numbers they forget about context or actually watching the games. Harden is one of the best players in the NBA, there isn't a debate about that, but his numbers within context do not elevate him to LeBron's level. They're great as opposed to extraordinary. They only appear so on surface level.

[NbaAllDay]

You are being a bit harsh to Harden here.

Obviously Harden is going to struggle to compare to arguably a GOAT level offensive player such as Lebron but these kinds of replies are really defense and are more emotional than anything.

It's been detailed a lot so I wont go over it here but at least look at the Harden thread and some of the numbers behind it because what you are saying is pretty disenginous to the incredible year (or at least the last 19 games) that Harden has played.

No, I don't think so at all. People get so enamoured with numbers they forget about context or actually watching the games. Harden is one of the best players in the NBA, there isn't a debate about that, but his numbers within context do not elevate him to LeBron's level. They're great as opposed to extraordinary. They only appear so on surface level.

Well you and I are clearly watching two different people. I mentioned he wasn't on Lebrons level, but he is offensively better than anyone else currently this year. It's a little better than great.

[homecourtloss]

Alot of this stretch has been really encouraging

They went 5-8 but while there were a few hiccups, they played competetive games against okc twice and houstan

Also they ran more of an offense in the okc game and the houstan game pre ball injury (no one else can really run it) small sample but still

When it comes to this year, youre looking at a team thats very strong defensiely but lacking cohesion and direction on offense. Adding rondo and lebron is going to solve that, but more imporantly their playoff versions are going to boost that up even more. A big problem is without lebron or rondo theres not anyone that can really initiate. Lonzo can run sets and the pick and roll but hes a really limited scorer. but kuz isnt really a guy to initiate although he can get the ball moving, his handle is there to be the go to guy yet (hes still being used like he was with lebron, although obviously the lack of bron makes it harder). Ingram just cant at this point but maybe lonzos injury helps him grow like it did last year.

But if we look at how good they can be in the playoffs

I understand the youth can totally mess them up there

That being said, defensively playoff lebron, rondo, and even lance are better than their RS counterparts (not neccessairly suddenly amazing but all are better)

I totally expect lebron to be great on that end come playoff time. I feel a big reason for his bad D in cleveland, aside from his offensive load, was that everyone else was a liability on that end. Offenses have evolved to a point where i dont think one person can make ip for the defensive deffeciencies of the rest of the team (pelicans for example).

Think of it as a hole in a water bottle. If it has 4 holes 5 wont make a difference i guess is how he sees it, or something along those lines. He is a great off ball when he cares and on ball hes still lockdown and supremely switchable.

I feel playoff rondo lebron breaking down film + a defensive cast that can execute it would make them a top tier playoff team. Heck, playoff lebron garuntees that alone

If we look at this team as next year, it gets more interesting. An improved top tier defensive supporting cast + Top 5-10 player in the league + lebron james is peak warrior level imo. When you look at the team that went 5-8, did they go 5-8 because if a lack of talent or a lack of maturity?

Thats essentially what it comes down to imo. On offense, there was a clear lack of maturity, but the talent was much higher than their record suggests. Lebron gives them that maturity (i mean, zo/hart/ingram/kuz/zubac has challanged western playoff teams and age wise thats a summer league team!)

Agree here.

But LeBron in LA has actually been a good defender.

The Lakers are 6th or 7th in defense depending on how you count possessions, but are better with James on court by 3.1 points per 100 possessions https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2019

He has a a DRPM of 1.45, third on the team behind a big (Zubac) and Hart (1.54).

This is him contesting shots: https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/defense-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

He was particularly strong in December:

https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/defense-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Month=3

[clyde21]

this version of D'Angelo Russell would've been really intriguing next to LeBron.

man, what a mess that Mozgov signing was.

[Colbinii]

this version of D'Angelo Russell would've been really intriguing next to LeBron.

man, what a mess that Mozgov signing was.

What a mess the Lakers FO was. They could have just kept Mozgov and traded him after this off-season.

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[JLei]

this version of D'Angelo Russell would've been really intriguing next to LeBron.

man, what a mess that Mozgov signing was.

What a mess the Lakers FO was. They could have just kept Mozgov and traded him after this off-season.

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Come on now the point was to create 2 max slots. Of course they had to trade Mozgov for Lopez and give up Russell.

Now George didn't sign but the whole off season was structured around Lebron + George. Can't fault them for that.

[Basileus777]

this version of D'Angelo Russell would've been really intriguing next to LeBron.

man, what a mess that Mozgov signing was.

What a mess the Lakers FO was. They could have just kept Mozgov and traded him after this off-season.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Come on now the point was to create 2 max slots. Of course they had to trade Mozgov for Lopez and give up Russell.

Now George didn't sign but the whole off season was structured around Lebron + George. Can't fault them for that.

You absolutely can. It's a complete failure of player evaluation and development to take a guy with the 2nd overall pick, give up on him when he is 21 years old to dump some salary, and then for that player to become an all-star level guy on the team you traded to.

[Heej]

People are hating on Harden but Regular Season only LeBron hasn't produced an offensive season like this. Maybe 09 Bron could've in the current league ecosystem

[Colbinii]

People are hating on Harden but Regular Season only LeBron hasn't produced an offensive season like this. Maybe 09 Bron could've in the current league ecosystem

Players only get hated on when they approach [or surpass] the level of play of their favorite player.

LeBron when he approached Bryant.
Curry when he approached LeBron.
Westbrook when he approached Curry.
Harden when he approached Curry.

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[ardee]

If he doesn't come back soon we're ****.

[DatAsh]

People are hating on Harden but Regular Season only LeBron hasn't produced an offensive season like this. Maybe 09 Bron could've in the current league ecosystem

Players only get hated on when they approach [or surpass] the level of play of their favorite player.

LeBron when he approached Bryant.
Curry when he approached LeBron.
Westbrook when he approached Curry.
Harden when he approached Curry.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

I do think the pushback is mostly because of this. What Harden is doing is unreal.

Just looking at box score numbers, it's better than anything Lebron has produced. Someone above mentioned that there's more to offense than just box score numbers, which is true, but the impact metrics seem to be telling a similar story.

Looking at ORPM, he's more than 2 whole points above the next best player(Curry), 3 points above the third best player, and 5 points above Lebron.

The Rockets are the second best offense in the league, even with all the injuries. The only team with a better offense is the team with both Curry and Durant. I saw someone posted that he's like +14 on offense, so it's not like it's because he's surrounded with tons of offensive help.

The backlash in this thread makes sense, as it's mostly Lebron fans. Lebron is my favorite player too, and I think he's the clear cut GOAT, but I still have to acknowledge the insanity of what Harden is doing right now. The big caveat here - and it's a valid one - is whether or not this level of play continues into the playoffs. So far, we haven't seen any evidence that it will, but we shall see. If it does, it may be the best offensive season ever for me.

[GSP]

this version of D'Angelo Russell would've been really intriguing next to LeBron.

man, what a mess that Mozgov signing was.

What a mess the Lakers FO was. They could have just kept Mozgov and traded him after this off-season.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Come on now the point was to create 2 max slots. Of course they had to trade Mozgov for Lopez and give up Russell.

Now George didn't sign but the whole off season was structured around Lebron + George. Can't fault them for that.

This is true. Letting Randle go was stupid tho. His agent is really dumb went for peanuts

[Greyhound]

People are hating on Harden but Regular Season only LeBron hasn't produced an offensive season like this. Maybe 09 Bron could've in the current league ecosystem

Great.

You can follow the spreadsheet right on over to the Harden Thread. I am sure there is all types of love over there.

[BasketballFan7]

People are hating on Harden but Regular Season only LeBron hasn't produced an offensive season like this. Maybe 09 Bron could've in the current league ecosystem

Players only get hated on when they approach [or surpass] the level of play of their favorite player.

LeBron when he approached Bryant.
Curry when he approached LeBron.
Westbrook when he approached Curry.
Harden when he approached Curry.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

I do think the pushback is mostly because of this. What Harden is doing is unreal.

Just looking at box score numbers, it's better than anything Lebron has produced. Someone above mentioned that there's more to offense than just box score numbers, which is true, but the impact metrics seem to be telling a similar story.

Looking at ORPM, he's more than 2 whole points above the next best player(Curry), 3 points above the third best player, and 5 points above Lebron.

The Rockets are the second best offense in the league, even with all the injuries. The only team with a better offense is the team with both Curry and Durant. I saw someone posted that he's like +14 on offense, so it's not like it's because he's surrounded with tons of offensive help.

The backlash in this thread makes sense, as it's mostly Lebron fans. Lebron is my favorite player too, and I think he's the clear cut GOAT, but I still have to acknowledge the insanity of what Harden is doing right now. The big caveat here - and it's a valid one - is whether or not this level of play continues into the playoffs. So far, we haven't seen any evidence that it will, but we shall see. If it does, it may be the best offensive season ever for me.

But Harden was disliked before he reached this level. He's just the center of attention now.

[Slava]

What a mess the Lakers FO was. They could have just kept Mozgov and traded him after this off-season.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Come on now the point was to create 2 max slots. Of course they had to trade Mozgov for Lopez and give up Russell.

Now George didn't sign but the whole off season was structured around Lebron + George. Can't fault them for that.

This is true. Letting Randle go was stupid tho. His agent is really dumb went for peanuts

Randle, Russell and George are all represented by the same agent and there was a clear falling out with Pelinka.

[picko]

People are hating on Harden but Regular Season only LeBron hasn't produced an offensive season like this. Maybe 09 Bron could've in the current league ecosystem

Players only get hated on when they approach [or surpass] the level of play of their favorite player.

LeBron when he approached Bryant.
Curry when he approached LeBron.
Westbrook when he approached Curry.
Harden when he approached Curry.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

I do think the pushback is mostly because of this. What Harden is doing is unreal.

Just looking at box score numbers, it's better than anything Lebron has produced. Someone above mentioned that there's more to offense than just box score numbers, which is true, but the impact metrics seem to be telling a similar story.

Looking at ORPM, he's more than 2 whole points above the next best player(Curry), 3 points above the third best player, and 5 points above Lebron.

The Rockets are the second best offense in the league, even with all the injuries. The only team with a better offense is the team with both Curry and Durant. I saw someone posted that he's like +14 on offense, so it's not like it's because he's surrounded with tons of offensive help.

The backlash in this thread makes sense, as it's mostly Lebron fans. Lebron is my favorite player too, and I think he's the clear cut GOAT, but I still have to acknowledge the insanity of what Harden is doing right now. The big caveat here - and it's a valid one - is whether or not this level of play continues into the playoffs. So far, we haven't seen any evidence that it will, but we shall see. If it does, it may be the best offensive season ever for me.

We are only months away from LeBron having a stretch in the playoffs every bit as good as what Harden has been doing. Just in games that, you know, matter.

[DatAsh]

There’s a reason I inluded the playoffs caveat in my post. Lebron has a history of consistently elevating his game in the playoffs; Harden has a history just the opposite.

[LeBird]

If you have a caveat in your post then you're just playing games and you know yourself it doesn't deserve to be singled out for overpraise.

[DatAsh]

If you have a caveat in your post then you're just playing games and you know yourself it doesn't deserve to be singled out for overpraise.

I guess I don’t really see the harm in discussing what ifs. Sure, it’s a big if, but it’s still possible that he does keep up this level of play.

Sorry if I’ve misunderstood your point here.

[Jurassic_Park]

People are hating on Harden but Regular Season only LeBron hasn't produced an offensive season like this. Maybe 09 Bron could've in the current league ecosystem

agree with the regular season only. I don't expect Harden to do this in the playoffs, whereas Lebron was great in the playoffs.

but current Reg season harden offsensively > any lebron Reg season offensively.