The Lebron Thread - 2018 - 2019 - Pt. 2

[Heej]

If you have a caveat in your post then you're just playing games and you know yourself it doesn't deserve to be singled out for overpraise.

We know, were just saying that regular season only this might be the GOAT offensive season just 3 years after 15-16 Curry. We gotta respect greatness guys. I'd think LeBron fans more than anyone would understand that after the years of him being disrespected by Kobe fans lol. This guys at the 35ppg mark lol and nailing a ridiculous amount of 3s and getting to the line all self created.

Have you ever seen a guy that's so unstoppable he's legit just invited to drive every possession because every other defense you show him he'll step back in your face or get to his strong hand and make a play every time? I've never seen people sell out like this so completely when guarding a player. The dude has basically solved iso ball lol. If he had the three point threats and spacing of a team like Toronto or GS with Boogie he'd average 40. Who knows if even MJ could pull that off, cuz he'd shoot too many ugly shots when the defense collapses rather than whip it to shooters 20 times a game.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Harden's mastery at drawing fouls has made it so that defenders don't even try to get in his space anymore. If they get too close he'll find a way to initiate contact and go to the line. It's a nauseating playstyle, but he deserves credit for being so masterful at it. Now he can basically do whatever he wants with guys unable to do anything other than try to channel him toward less desirable spots on the floor. He presents a unique defensive challenge unlike any player in history. It's amazing and frustrating to watch. It's unpalatable and yet awe inspiring.

I don't think LeBron has ever reached this level as a scorer. Maybe the playoffs last year was close, but that's it.

[LeBird]

We know, were just saying that regular season only this might be the GOAT offensive season just 3 years after 15-16 Curry. We gotta respect greatness guys. I'd think LeBron fans more than anyone would understand

This is where we differ. I don't see greatness, I see a selfish way of gaming a system, all out to get great numbers in order to drive a narrative. I don't doubt that LeBron or Curry could put up these numbers if they actually wanted to. But it diminishes their team's game in preparation for the playoffs and does nothing but self-serve them which is against their character.

It's a different variation of what Harden and Russ were doing re triple doubles the last few seasons - it's so blatant and people fell for it. People, particularly stats obsessed people who follow these things closely, lose their minds but Harden is who he was last year and the year before that. He knows full well what he is doing and who is going to eat it up.

So when people try to make the comparison between Harden's RS level and LeBron's I have to chuckle. LeBron never cared about getting the MVP by shooting 30 shots a night and by drawing soft fouls every chance he could get, he knew the real ones (well, back then people weren't as stat obsessed) knew and he also knew come playoff time it wasn't going to work and that he was cheating himself.

These are the kinds of years the Nashes et al got their shine and MVP awards and in hindsight you look back at it confused. Imagine Harden getting another MVP in this era with Curry, Durant and LeBron and yet he does nothing of note in terms of actually winning championships. Westbrook in this run as well.

[Dr Spaceman]

Harden's mastery at drawing fouls has made it so that defenders don't even try to get in his space anymore. If they get too close he'll find a way to initiate contact and go to the line. It's a nauseating playstyle, but he deserves credit for being so masterful at it. Now he can basically do whatever he wants with guys unable to do anything other than try to channel him toward less desirable spots on the floor. He presents a unique defensive challenge unlike any player in history. It's amazing and frustrating to watch. It's unpalatable and yet awe inspiring.

I don't think LeBron has ever reached this level as a scorer. Maybe the playoffs last year was close, but that's it.

I see comments like this and I genuinely wonder what people are watching. How do you think he keeps drawing fouls if defenders aren’t “in his space”?

I’ve never seen a player be defended the way Harden is. Teams now are just having the on-ball guy sit on his left hand so he doesn’t have room to pull up into his shot because they’d rather just let him drive straight to the rim with his off hand. They’re playing zone so they can pick him u; at half court and send an immediate double or triple team his way. The are trying everything to not give up that dreaded 1 on 1 matchup and he’s still going for 35 a game. It’s just unreal.

But no, as far as space goes, he gets less of it than any player in the NBA, and yes that includes Steph Curry.

[Dr Spaceman]

If you have a caveat in your post then you're just playing games and you know yourself it doesn't deserve to be singled out for overpraise.

We know, were just saying that regular season only this might be the GOAT offensive season just 3 years after 15-16 Curry. We gotta respect greatness guys. I'd think LeBron fans more than anyone would understand that after the years of him being disrespected by Kobe fans lol. This guys at the 35ppg mark lol and nailing a ridiculous amount of 3s and getting to the line all self created.

Have you ever seen a guy that's so unstoppable he's legit just invited to drive every possession because every other defense you show him he'll step back in your face or get to his strong hand and make a play every time? I've never seen people sell out like this so completely when guarding a player. The dude has basically solved iso ball lol. If he had the three point threats and spacing of a team like Toronto or GS with Boogie he'd average 40. Who knows if even MJ could pull that off, cuz he'd shoot too many ugly shots when the defense collapses rather than whip it to shooters 20 times a game.

The last few games have been a treat. Teams just literally giving him a layup line with the right hand drive because it’s less points given up than letting him settle into his step back or kick out for a three. LA was sending three guys into his vicinity behind the arc. I’ve never seen anything like it.

[ardee]

These are the kinds of years the Nashes et al got their shine and MVP awards and in hindsight you look back at it confused. Imagine Harden getting another MVP in this era with Curry, Durant and LeBron and yet he does nothing of note in terms of actually winning championships. Westbrook in this run as well.

I mean Nash is a phenomenal player, close to top 20 all time, and did deserve two MVPs (2005 and 2007). I find it hilarious you're using a comparison with him as an insult.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Harden's mastery at drawing fouls has made it so that defenders don't even try to get in his space anymore. If they get too close he'll find a way to initiate contact and go to the line. It's a nauseating playstyle, but he deserves credit for being so masterful at it. Now he can basically do whatever he wants with guys unable to do anything other than try to channel him toward less desirable spots on the floor. He presents a unique defensive challenge unlike any player in history. It's amazing and frustrating to watch. It's unpalatable and yet awe inspiring.

I don't think LeBron has ever reached this level as a scorer. Maybe the playoffs last year was close, but that's it.

I see comments like this and I genuinely wonder what people are watching. How do you think he keeps drawing fouls if defenders aren’t “in his space”?

I’ve never seen a player be defended the way Harden is. Teams now are just having the on-ball guy sit on his left hand so he doesn’t have room to pull up into his shot because they’d rather just let him drive straight to the rim with his off hand. They’re playing zone so they can pick him u; at half court and send an immediate double or triple team his way. The are trying everything to not give up that dreaded 1 on 1 matchup and he’s still going for 35 a game. It’s just unreal.

But no, as far as space goes, he gets less of it than any player in the NBA, and yes that includes Steph Curry.

Feels like we interpret space differently. The Rockets defenders in the second half were in the Lakers' space much more than the Lakers were in Harden's space. The Harden defender was keeping his hands away, even tucking them behind his back. Normal defense involves trying to swipe at the ball, getting your hands in the space where the offensive player wants to take the ball. On drives defenders stick an arm in to slow the drive and often use their body to lean in to disrupt the drive. I didn't see that as much by Harden's defenders. The defenders might try to stay close, but there was a bubble around Harden they were trying very hard not to get into.

[Bergmaniac]

Why do people assume Harden's current style won't work in the playoff? Houston almost beat the supposedly unbeatable Warriors last season by playing this slow pace ISO all the time style, and that was with Harden's 3 point shooting being way worse than it has been this season.

And the "he won't be able to get to the line as much in the playoffs" talk is also way overblown, he's had multiple playoff runs where he's shot more than 10 FTs per game and his career free throw drawing rate in the playoff is 0.498, which is fantastic and just a bit below his regular season career average.

[Dr Spaceman]

Why do people assume Harden's current style won't work in the playoff? Houston almost beat the supposedly unbeatable Warriors last season by playing this slow pace ISO all the time style, and that was with Harden's 3 point shooting being way worse than it has been this season.

And the "he won't be able to get to the line as much in the playoffs" talk is also way overblown, he's had multiple playoff runs where he's shot more than 10 FTs per game and his career free throw drawing rate in the playoff is 0.498, which is fantastic and just a bit below his regular season career average.

The problem for Harden historically is that he doesn’t make 3s when he’s tired and gets tired much easier when he’s going against top defenders every night and expending more energy trying to do the same wrecking ball act, and more is required of him defensively as well.

I will say I think this year is different though. Teams are pulling no punches against him during this stretch, they’re really selling out to stop him and that has to be encouraging. He’s carrying a crazy load right now and still shooting 40% on threes which means his conditioning has to be near the best it can be right now.

I think these are all good signs for playoff Harden. I think it’s not a good sign that the Rockets are currently 26th in defensive rating. Hard to see them being competitive with a figure like that.

[Statlanta]

Why do people assume Harden's current style won't work in the playoff?

It's less about his numbers and more about impact. You don't get the full impact of James Harden unless he's winning the 50/50 calls.

2018 WCF Game 7 he wasn't getting those calls. His team had the best record and homecourt the entire playoffs and he still didn't get those borderline foul calls he gets in the regular season. He shot normal FTs for the series but he didn't win the 50/50 calls. And he visibly sulked and sucked on defense when he didn't.

He might win 50/50 calls against playoff newcomers like KAT and Jokic who aren't experienced with how the refs call the playoffs. He is not winning those calls against Kevin Durant or LeBron James who have the awareness of when refs are calling a tight game and when they are not.


James Harden should get all the criticism pre-Warriors DeMarcus Cousins gets for talking to refs for every non-call especially since he's on the perimeter, a place with less contact.

EDIT:
People usually bring up this video to say the Rockets were robbed.

Watch on YouTube

Yet, we all know not every call will be correct in a game as the current Conference Championship in the NFL has shown. Players gotta be resilient in the face of adversity. Players also must understand that no ref wants to decide a series-clinching game.

[magicman1978]

Why do people assume Harden's current style won't work in the playoff? Houston almost beat the supposedly unbeatable Warriors last season by playing this slow pace ISO all the time style, and that was with Harden's 3 point shooting being way worse than it has been this season.

And the "he won't be able to get to the line as much in the playoffs" talk is also way overblown, he's had multiple playoff runs where he's shot more than 10 FTs per game and his career free throw drawing rate in the playoff is 0.498, which is fantastic and just a bit below his regular season career average.

The problem for Harden historically is that he doesn’t make 3s when he’s tired and gets tired much easier when he’s going against top defenders every night and expending more energy trying to do the same wrecking ball act, and more is required of him defensively as well.

I will say I think this year is different though. Teams are pulling no punches against him during this stretch, they’re really selling out to stop him and that has to be encouraging. He’s carrying a crazy load right now and still shooting 40% on threes which means his conditioning has to be near the best it can be right now.

I think these are all good signs for playoff Harden. I think it’s not a good sign that the Rockets are currently 26th in defensive rating. Hard to see them being competitive with a figure like that.

I agree. I think it's also harder when you're going up against the best players in the league who have time to game plan and be prepared for how he plays. Playing Harden in the regular season, you don't run into any other player that plays the way he does. He's by far the best iso player in the game and has all the tricks up his sleeve on how to best position himself to get calls to go his way. You're just not ready for something like that. When you get to the playoffs, now you've got everyone watching video, game planning, and making game to game adjustments focused specifically on slowing him down. Also doesn't help that the refs are more likely to swallow their whistles in the playoffs. Everything becomes much harder. It will be interesting to see what he does this year.

[Heej]

If you have a caveat in your post then you're just playing games and you know yourself it doesn't deserve to be singled out for overpraise.

We know, were just saying that regular season only this might be the GOAT offensive season just 3 years after 15-16 Curry. We gotta respect greatness guys. I'd think LeBron fans more than anyone would understand that after the years of him being disrespected by Kobe fans lol. This guys at the 35ppg mark lol and nailing a ridiculous amount of 3s and getting to the line all self created.

Have you ever seen a guy that's so unstoppable he's legit just invited to drive every possession because every other defense you show him he'll step back in your face or get to his strong hand and make a play every time? I've never seen people sell out like this so completely when guarding a player. The dude has basically solved iso ball lol. If he had the three point threats and spacing of a team like Toronto or GS with Boogie he'd average 40. Who knows if even MJ could pull that off, cuz he'd shoot too many ugly shots when the defense collapses rather than whip it to shooters 20 times a game.

The last few games have been a treat. Teams just literally giving him a layup line with the right hand drive because it’s less points given up than letting him settle into his step back or kick out for a three. LA was sending three guys into his vicinity behind the arc. I’ve never seen anything like it.

You get me lol. Just a month after Draymond's "gimmick defense" comment the NBA collectively decided to employ a gimmick defense to stop one man. We've never seen anything like this where the league as a whole decides as a consensus that we're going to sit on one guys strong hand and let him drive right unimpeded into a 1-2-2 zone defense lol. Imagine if he had Ariza and CP to kick out to like last year whom could both shoot or attack closeouts to keep churning the defense.

He's even eliminated the spacing you have as an iso defender. Too close and if he's in triple threat hes gonna bump you off with his massive shoulders and core strength and step back into a 3 and if it's live dribble he blows by, play a step off so you can contest the stepback and he gets into his dribble sequence and uses a shoulder fake crosses you over into a drive, 2 steps off of him and he just hits you with a regular stepback, and if he's allowed to get to his left hand it's a bucket or a foul, so the only recourse you have is to just sit on his rIght hand and pray.

Also by my eye test he's surpassed 16 Curry in terms of how early in the clock and how far up the court teams will sell out and deny Harden the ball. Unreal gravity despite his lackluster off ball movement.

[tone wone]

Jesus, we're having 3 page discussions on James Harden? This groin injury has been torture.

When the hell is he coming back?

[The High Cyde]

Jesus, we're having 3 page discussions on James Harden? This groin injury has been torture.

When the hell is he coming back?

Hopefully before the 31st, I got tickets to that game

[Jurassic_Park]

2019 Harden offensively reg season is better than any version of lebron. Just a ridiculous season so far, its unheard of.

[Greyhound]

Jesus, we're having 3 page discussions on James Harden? This groin injury has been torture.

When the hell is he coming back?

For the life of me I cannot understand why people are in the LeBron James thread trying to talk James Harden.

The guy has his own thread.

———-

They must need the audience or something.

[Baski]

Jesus, we're having 3 page discussions on James Harden? This groin injury has been torture.

When the hell is he coming back?

Lmao i swear i thought this was the James Harden thread i was reading till your comment made me check the topic name. Wow lol

[Ainosterhaspie]

Well, not much to talk about with LBJ right now...

[bleeds_purple]

These are the kinds of years the Nashes et al got their shine and MVP awards and in hindsight you look back at it confused. Imagine Harden getting another MVP in this era with Curry, Durant and LeBron and yet he does nothing of note in terms of actually winning championships. Westbrook in this run as well.

Teams win championships. Get out of here with this nonsense.

I don't particularly enjoy watching Harden's style of play but its stupid to say anything other than that he has mastered his craft.

[bondom34]

Month or 2 ago I said I was impressed, but man wish he would have gone to Philly.