cecilthesheep wrote:Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon
This is an easy choice for me. Hakeem was both the fastest, quickest, most switchable great center ever, and one of the top rim protectors of all time. Wilt is underrated and is the only other guy that comes close in my mind, but Hakeem's elite, sustained peak combined with longevity as good as anyone remaining except for Kareem takes the cake for me. He's on a very short list of guys who could create elite defenses on their own, with or without help.
pandrade83 wrote:
But for me this is Olajuwon
Olajuwon's run where he destroyed Ewing's offense, shut down Robinson & outplayed Shaq is legendary. He made elite defenses basically by himself, he was robust on the boards, with help defense, man defense - his blocking prowess is obvious - I'm VERY high on him from an ATG perspective & I think to be consistent with that, I need to take him here.
penbeast0 wrote:With the extra value from his longer, healthier career, I have Hakeem ahead of Drob. Mutombo also looks like an excellent candidate with Ben Wallace the other player I was looking at right now for top 5. For now, I vote Olujawon although I am open to statistical evidence and change.
Dr Positivity wrote:I am surprised people anyone thinks Hakeem vs Robinson is easy. Seems like a toss up. Robinson has more perfect physical tools on defense (bigger), and has more +/- data rating him as DPOY level even as an older player. Robinson's defense on Hakeem is a concern, but I think he was a better Shaq defender. Ultimately if it's that close I'll go with the player with slightly more longevity and who came out on top between them. Vote Hakeem
lebron3-14-3 wrote:I'm ready to take over, thank you to you trex yet another time.
For me this one is easy.
Bill russell for our current knowledge is easily the best defender of all time.
And to me hakeem is the best defender of all time after bill, or the best defender in the 3 point era.
For me hakeem and garnett are the clear cut best of the 3 point era.
So hakeem.
I read someone saying it would get interesting from this round on. But I think it will be from the next round
OK, I'll try to make the statistical case that penbeast0 is looking for.
And I'm with Dr Positivity: I can understand casting a vote for Hakeem here; I cannot understand calling it "easy". To say as much makes me think certain players are being brushed aside without a thorough look, or evidence is being willfully ignored (because a thorough look at [and even token acceptance of] said evidence would certainly illustrate why it's anything but "easy"), and/or Hakeem is being mythologized based on some small-game samples.
Speaking for myself, I don't know that there's any player who gets more mileage out of a single series or single playoff run than Hakeem. For instance, let's look at the common perception of Hakeem v DRob.....
The common perception was stated above in one of the quoted passages: that Hakeem "shut down Robinson". My first thought was,
well.....Hakeem and one or two friends. I wish the search function worked [or that I'd saved copies in Google Docs] of the scouting reports [play-by-play] I'd made a couple years ago of the '95 WCF to share the specifics. But roughly speaking David Robinson, whenever receiving the ball in isolation, was facing a double-team (or occasional flashes of triple-team) approximately TWICE as often as Hakeem (maybe even marginally more). Hakeem was frequently enjoying single-coverage, also finding some easier assists particularly to Robert Horry [who had a fantastic series as Dennis Rodman was frequently ignoring him on the perimeter to wander toward the rim to be in better rebounding position].
From that standpoint, it's not exactly apples-to-apples to just look at their respective boxes. Don't know exactly how much of a distraction Dennis Rodman's very very public meltdown during a winnable series was for Robinson and the Spurs, too (but I can't imagine it helped). And Rodman's complete defensive collapse (one of many) on the final Rocket possession in G1 allowed Horry an utterly (
utterly) uncontested 18-footer for the go-ahead bucket. Maybe he makes that shot anyway; but then again maybe not. And I can't help speculating how the complexion of the series may have been different if not for that play, and how differently the Hakeem/David relationship would be viewed if the Spurs had won the series.
But anyway, that was six games played H2H between Hakeem and Robinson.......they had
42 other meetings in their careers. It might be worthwhile to recognize that they basically played each other to a standstill (as far as comparing individual numbers) in those 42 other meetings, but that the Spurs won 30 of the 42. Robinson's numbers are down in that sample, relative to what he averaged against the league at large......but so are Hakeem's (his volume numbers stay stable v DRob, a few even up by near-negligible amounts; but his shooting efficiency tanked by 7% when facing DRob).
So this common perception of how Hakeem did vs Robinson (almost entirely based on that '95 series) is actually not very representative AT ALL of how things went over the broader sample of their respective careers.
I'd also like to speak to the comment that Hakeem "made elite defenses basically by himself".....
idk, perhaps I'm just semantically disagreeing with what exactly is meant by "elite" [and perhaps also by "by himself"]. If I were to define an "elite defense", I might suggest something like a -3.0 rDRTG or better??? Even that is perhaps being a bit liberal with the definition of "elite", but let's go with it.
Hakeem was a part of just FOUR "elite" defenses (in 18 seasons) by that definition. And with the exception of '89, they all occurred with at least a little help from Vernon Maxwell (a very good perimeter defender) and/or Robert Horry (another good [and versatile] defender). He'd had a decent defender in Rodney McCray prior to '89, but didn't quite manage an "elite" one in those years.
Robinson anchored four "elite" defenses in his first seven seasons before the injury (none of them with Dennis Rodman, btw, whose defense by that point in his career was overrated), certainly not with superior help, imo. Then another SIX straight elite ones after the arrival of Tim Duncan.
The average of the four best defenses Hakeem anchored is -4.15 rDRTG. The avg of the four best Robinson anchored BEFORE Duncan’s arrival is -4.18.
The Rocket defense improved by -2.2 with Hakeem's arrival in '85. The Spurs defense improved by -4.0 with Robinson's arrival in '90 (and then fell of by a staggering
+9.7 in '97 when Robinson was out with injury, and improved by an even more shocking -11.2 the following year with Robinson's return + the addition of rookie Duncan).
So how could Robinson inflict so much defensive impact (which seems easily equal with [if not marginally superior to] Hakeem's based on team result)? Well, let's start by circling back to H2H's, in broad strokes (allowing for the usual caveats relating to uncertainty as to how often Hakeem/Robinson is a guarding the person in question, etc). Went with rs samples (because they're bigger).....
Vs Hakeem.....
Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, and Brad Daugherty all saw significant dips in their production and/or efficiency when facing Olajuwon.
Shawn Kemp only saw a marginally reduction in his performance against Hakeem.
Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett held steady (that is: their production/efficiency remained stable) when facing an OLDER Hakeem Olajuwon.
Jermaine O'Neal and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar actually appear to perform BETTER against Hakeem than they did against the field in the same years.
Vs Robinson.....
Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Ewing, Shawn Kemp, and Jermaine O'Neal all were significantly worse when facing Robinson.
Hakeem Olajuwon was a little worse (as mentioned above: volume stats hold steady [or even negligibly higher], but shooting efficiency falls by 7%).
Brad Daugherty and Dikembe Mutombo both more or less hold stable against Robinson (or a marginal decline, at worst).
In broad strokes [based on the players looked at], it doesn't look like Hakeem has any advantage in terms of H2H's; if anything, likely a tiny edge to Robinson.
To my eye, Robinson appears the slightly superior pnr defender. I also disagree that Olajuwon is any more "switchable" than Robinson is.
And then we can look at just the volume defensive numbers:
Hakeem ('86-'96) per 100 possessions: 11.3 DRebs, 2.5 stl, 4.7 blk, 4.9 PF.
Robinson ('90-'97) per 100 possessions: 11.0 DRebs, 2.2 stl, 4.8 blk, 4.0 PF.
That too sure looks like he's holding his own with Olajuwon in their respective primes.
And I certainly feel Robinson maintained his defensive impact into their respective post-primes to a higher degree than Hakeem did. Noting the below is basically all post-prime for both of them; and will add it Mutombo too (most of this IS prime for him, fwiw, up thru probably ‘01; but just by way of starting a statistical case for Deke).......
DRAPM'97Mutombo: +4.37
Olajuwon: +1.93
Robinson (6 games): +1.11
'98Mutombo: +5.74
Robinson: +3.64
Olajuwon: +3.32
'99Mutombo: +6.45
Robinson: +5.18
Olajuwon: +3.86
’00Mutombo: +6.61
Robinson: +4.53
Olajuwon: +3.80
’01Mutombo: +4.8
Robinson: +4.1
Olajuwon: +1.2
’02Robinson: +2.1
Mutombo: +1.3
Olajuwon: +1.2
’03Robinson: +3.4
Mutombo: +1.3
Speaking for myself, I certainly feel Robinson is in the conversation, even with the lesser longevity. And Mutombo is definitely in consideration for me, especially given his longevity is very strong, too.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
