#4 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[trex_8063]

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Horace Grant


Centers:

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Wilt Chamberlain
Patrick Ewing
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard
Nate Thurmond
Bill Walton
Rudy Gobert
George Mikan
Artis Gilmore
Willis Reed
Wes Unseld
Jack Sikma
Andrew Bogut
Tree Rollins
Theo Ratliff
Mark Eaton
Manute Bol
Shawn Bradley
Marc Gasol
Tyson Chandler
Marcus Camby
Joakim Noah
DeAndre Jordan
Roy Hibbert
Dave Cowens
Robert Parish
Vlade Divac
George Johnson
Caldwell Jones
Clifford Ray
Bill Laimbeer
Yao Ming
Nene Hilario
Al Horford
[/b]



Hi guys

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[Johnny Firpo]

Give me Big Ben for nr.4.

[cecilthesheep]

Nate Thurmond again. His reputation among contemporaries is one of the strongest I've ever seen, and he was an incredible man defender based on head-to-head stats against great centers of the time. On film, his positioning and timing appears consistently superior to Wilt's. All that to me is enough to overcome stuff like his injury problems.

[cecilthesheep]

From the last thread, some stats comparing Wilt's man-to-man defensive results against HOF centers with Thurmond's (I've replaced Jerry Lucas with Dave Cowens):

Bill Russell vs Chamberlain (94 games): 14.2p / 22.9r / 4.4a / .370 FG% (using this instead of TS% because I'm already having to do some of my own calculations as a result of often-incomplete box scores and TS% would be a huge pain on top of that)
Russell overall during same time period as Chamberlain matchups: 14.8p / 22.6r / 4.6a / .439 FG%
Russell vs Thurmond (42 games): 12.2p / 22.5r / 5.3a / .396 FG%
Overall during same time period as Thurmond matchups: 13.0p / 21.7r / 5.0a / .433 FG%

Willis Reed vs Chamberlain (55 games): 17.7p / 12.5r / 2.0a / .434 FG%
Overall during same time period as Chamberlain matchups: 19.2p / 12.8r / 2.0a / .491 FG%
Reed vs Thurmond (46 games): 14.9p / 12.2r / 2.0a / .398 FG%
Overall during same time period as Thurmond matchups: 18.7p / 12.9r / 1.8a / .476 FG%

Walt Bellamy vs Chamberlain (90 games): 24.2p / 16.1r / 3.1a / .452 FG%
Overall during same time period as Chamberlain matchups: 20.6p / 14.0r / 2.4a / .518 FG%
Bellamy vs Thurmond (62 games): 15.6p / 12.4r / 2.1a / .419 FG%
Overall during same time period as Thurmond matchups: 18.4p / 12.9r / 2.4a / .514 FG%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs Chamberlain (17 games): 31.8p / 15.8r / 3.8a / .463 FG%
Overall during same time period as Chamberlain matchups: 31.4p / 15.8r / 4.2a / .556 FG%
Kareem vs Thurmond (37 games): 26.3p / 14.1r / assists unsure, not importing a whole CSV file just for this / .473 FG%
Overall during same time period as Thurmond matchups: 29.5p / 15.3r / 4.3a / .548 FG%

Cowens vs Chamberlain (14 games): 22.1p / 15.9r / 4.4a / .418 FG%
Overall during same time period as Chamberlain matchups: 18.8p / 15.5r / 3.3a / .453 FG%
Cowens vs Thurmond (24 games): 16.9p / 14.7r / 4.2a / .417 FG%
Overall during same time period as Thurmond matchups: 19.1p / 15.5r / 3.8a / .456 FG%

This area appears to be a clear edge for Thurmond, which is unsurprising since man defense was reputed to be his greatest strength. Man defense is far from everything at the center position, but it was more important then than now, so this is a factor to consider.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Dikembe Mutombo
I think Dikembe was better than Nate Thurmond based on eye test. My Thurmond sample size is too small.
I am not awarding 1960s players credit for being ahead of their time. If anything I am detracting points from 1960s players for substandard competition.

The stats say Thurmond was a better defender than Wilt. That helps Dikembe with me because in my eye test it was easier to say Dikembe was better than Thurmond than it was for me to say Dikembe's was better than Wilt.

[70sFan]

I'd like to hear what you think about Deke vs Nate comparison. Here is my post from previous thread with Thurmond footage:

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

For those who would like to study Thurmond defense more, here are all games I found with him as a center (so not counting 1964 Finals).

For those who don't have enough time to watch, I've made a video with Thurmond and Cowens and there is some defense included here:

Watch on YouTube

He looks very impressive to me and his effort is consistent. Sometimes he looks a bit foul prone but it's important to note that he was past his physical prime in most of footage we have.

Again, here is my post from different thread about his man defense:

Is there any center in history of the game that could destroy Thurmond offensively? These are stats from the best offensive centers in the world during 60s and 70s against Nate (first stats are against the league in RS during that span, second against Nate):

1. Wilt Chamberlain (1965-1968):

Spoiler:

29.0 ppg, 23.9 rpg, 6.3 apg on 56.7% FG, 45.0% FT and 55.6% TS
22.2 ppg, 26.0 rpg, 5.8 apg on 52.2% FG, 44.7% FT and 53.2% TS

2. Walt Bellamy (1965-1974, 53 games):

Spoiler:

17.5 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 2.5 apg on 51.4% FG, 62.1% FT and 55.1% TS
15.4 ppg, 11.9 rpg (41 games), 2.3 apg (30 games) on 41.4% FG (26 games) and 65.8% FT

3. Willis Reed (1969-1971, 12 games):

Spoiler:

21.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.1 apg on 49.7% FG, 76.2% FT and 54.2% TS
15.8 ppg, 13.2 rpg, 1.7 apg (10 games) on 36.6% FG (10 games), 75.4% FT and 44.2% TS (10 games)

4. Zelmo Beaty (1965-1969, 41 games):

Spoiler:

19.7 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 1.7 apg on 47.8% FG, 75.2% FT and 53.7% TS
17.2 ppg, 11.1 rpg (38 games), 2.1 apg (36 games) on 42.3% FG (16 games), 79.1% FT

He played well against him in 1967 playoffs:
17.3 ppg, 12.2 rpg (5 games), 1.4 apg (5 games) on 43.8% FG, 81.6% FT and 55.0% TS

5. Bob Lanier (1971-1974, 20 games):

Spoiler:

21.9 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 3.1 apg on 48.8% FG, 76.7% FT and 53.1% TS
17.1 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 4.2 apg (18 games) on 44.8% FG (15 games), 85.9% FT and 50.5% TS

6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1970-1974, 39 games):

Spoiler:

30.5 ppg, 15.5 rpg, 4.3 apg on 55.3% FG, 68.3% FT and 58.2% TS
24.7 ppg, 15.1 rpg, 3.4 apg (36 games) on 46.1% FG, 66.8% FT and 49.0% TS

7. Bob McAdoo (1973-1974, 7 games):

24.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 2.0 apg on 50.5% FG, 78.6% FT and 55.3% TS
20.9 ppg, 11.3 rpg (6 games), 2.6 apg (6 games) on 42.4% FG (5 games), 78.3% FT and 49.5% TS (5 games)

8. Bob Rule (1968-1970, 14 games):

22.1 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 1.6 apg on 47.2% FG, 68.5% FT and 51.5% TS
20.6 ppg, 9.7 rpg (12 games), 1.6 apg (12 games) on 47.8% FG (7 games), 65.5% FT and 45.6% TS

9. Elvin Hayes (1969-1974, 30 games):

Spoiler:

25.4 ppg, 16.3 rpg, 2.1 apg on 43.8% FG, 66.8% FT and 47.7% TS
22.6 ppg, 15.6 rpg (29 games), 2.5 apg (28 games) on 39.1% FG (24 games), 66.8% FT and 41.5% TS (24 games)

10. Elmore Smith (1972-1973, 7 games):

17.8 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 2.0 apg on 46.8% FG, 54.6% FT and 48.5% TS
14.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 1.4 apg on 41.3% FG, 55.6% FT and 42.7% TS

11. Dave Cowens (1971-1974, 17 games):

Spoiler:

18.8 ppg, 15.5 rpg, 3.6 apg on 44.9% FG, 76.4% FT and 48.3% TS
17.6 ppg, 14.8 rpg (16 games), 3.8 apg (15 games) on 42.2% FG (12 games), 88.6% FT and 44.7% TS

Maybe I will do more guys later, don't have enough time.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

My mistake.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm not big on longevity so this is an easy vote for Ben Wallace.

He can match any of these other 7 foot studs in terms of rebounding and blocks but his quickness is incredible. I think in a more modern league, his horizontal defense would look more similar to Draymond Green's - not sure he can move his feet as well, but with more training and emphasis he would move more in that vain, a nightmare against PnR and perimeter players.

as for accomplishments, well, kinda speaks for itself. He was arguably the best defender in the league for 4 or 5 years - the best player on a championship team/consistent contender and his skillset along with his athletic ability checks out to make the perfect sub 7 foot defender.

Yeah, Thurmond might be better man to man more so in the post- but I don't think he is really superior to Wallace at any other aspects of the game. Maybe he edges him in rebounds and shot blocking by a bit - but from the perimeter Ben Wallace is clearly a lot better than Thurmond, especially after I watched some of the recent youtube videos of Nate getting posted.

[70sFan]

Thurmond and the Warriors vs Oscar and the Royals

Watch on YouTube

I think Dikembe is better

Thurmond didn't play in that game, he was injured for most of that season.

[70sFan]

I've seen a lot of comments like "Thurmond is great man defender, but not on the other aspects of defense compared to the rest" and I actually don't understand that logic, mainly because of 2 points:

1. Thurmond was elite rim protector and he was quite good P&R defender in games I've seen. He was very intimidating in the paint but he was also willing to help further away from the basket. Some people treat him like one dimensional roleplayer (Chuck Hayes for example) but Thurmond was complete package on defense.

2. Thurmond's man defense is such a statistical anomaly that you can't call him just "great" man defender. He basically shut down the greatest scorer in NBA history for 4 straight prime seasons, slowed down another all-time great scorer before his absolute prime and completely dominated every single all-star bigman throughout his prime. He was stronger, longer and more physical than you and he had pride to fight against the best centers ever. I consider Wilt or Hakeem second best man defender at center position and they aren't even close to that level.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Thurmond and the Warriors vs Oscar and the Royals
Video without Nate
I think Dikembe is better

Thurmond didn't play in that game, he was injured for most of that season.

Well that's embarrassing. I should have looked at it before I posted it.

I also should have looked at your spoiler button and probably should post videos that way.
I have seen that Warriors Sonics game before. I remember the little Gil's waving. The Sonics game is too Mellow.

Unbelievable, I can't find a better game of prime Nate than that Sonics game you posted. I guess that explains why I watched that Sonics game. That Sonics game is not a contest. The Sonics are not good enough

What happened to the 1967 NBA finals? I assume a game was broadcasted.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Nate Thurmond

GOAT level post defender... possibly freak aberration good at it. I believe he is also right up there as a shotblocker. He had 2.9 blks at 32 with bad knees, has a handful of 10 block games tracked by newspapers in his time, and (taken with a grain of salt) Thurmond claimed he blocked the 2nd most shots in history behind Russell and this is someone who as a teammate would have reverence for Wilt. I rate him over Wilt because Thurmond is able to specialize more on defense energy wise. I have no evidence of what Wilt does better than Thurmond on defense. I believe Thurmond is known more for perimeter defense than Wilt

[iggymcfrack]

Gotta vote Dikembe Mutombo. Went and checked some of his DRAPM numbers from the late 90s and they blew me away. Here’s from the first year RAPM is available:

1996/97: Dikembe +4.37 (league leader Bo Outlaw +4.49)
1997/98: Dikembe +5.74 (2nd place Alonzo Mourning +4.23)
1998/99: Dikembe +6.45 (2nd place David Robinson +5.18)
1999/00: Dikembe +6.61 (2nd place Shawn Bradley +5.04)
2000/01: Dikembe +4.8 (Leader Shawn Bradley +5.5)

That’s a hell of a run from age 30-34 where he was not just the best defensive player in the league, but the best by a wide margin at a time when there were a lot of elite rim protectors playing. And that doesn’t even get any of his Denver years in his 20s when he was arguably playing his best basketball. He also had incredible longevity as even into his late 30s, he was still putting up DRAPMs near the top of the league. I’m starting to think maybe I should have given him consideration even higher.

[HeartBreakKid]

I've seen a lot of comments like "Thurmond is great man defender, but not on the other aspects of defense compared to the rest" and I actually don't understand that logic, mainly because of 2 points:

Where have you seen these comments...?

1. Thurmond was elite rim protector and he was quite good P&R defender in games I've seen. He was very intimidating in the paint but he was also willing to help further away from the basket. Some people treat him like one dimensional roleplayer (Chuck Hayes for example) but Thurmond was complete package on defense.

Don't think anyone is saying he is like Chuck Hayes. Not sure what you mean by good P&R defender - good relative to who?

2. Thurmond's man defense is such a statistical anomaly that you can't call him just "great" man defender. He basically shut down the greatest scorer in NBA history for 4 straight prime seasons, slowed down another all-time great scorer before his absolute prime and completely dominated every single all-star bigman throughout his prime. He was stronger, longer and more physical than you and he had pride to fight against the best centers ever. I consider Wilt or Hakeem second best man defender at center position and they aren't even close to that level.

Everyone is pretty much calling him the goat post defender. But what is the value of that? Kareem is not the goat scorer...only in a cumulative sense he is.

Being the GOAT post defender is like being the GOAT kicker in American Football. It's important, but there is diminishing returns. Even if someone just edges someone out in the other aspects of the game but were way behind in post defense, it would be better served to get a premium else where.

Why do you think his post defense makes him that much better than everyone? I feel like because Nate is so well known for his post defense, that people change their criteria when judging him and begin to over value man to man defense. I've seen this in every Nate Thurmond thread for 7 years now.

[70sFan]

I've seen a lot of comments like "Thurmond is great man defender, but not on the other aspects of defense compared to the rest" and I actually don't understand that logic, mainly because of 2 points:

Where have you seen these comments...?

1. Thurmond was elite rim protector and he was quite good P&R defender in games I've seen. He was very intimidating in the paint but he was also willing to help further away from the basket. Some people treat him like one dimensional roleplayer (Chuck Hayes for example) but Thurmond was complete package on defense.

Don't think anyone is saying he is like Chuck Hayes. Not sure what you mean by good P&R defender - good relative to who?

2. Thurmond's man defense is such a statistical anomaly that you can't call him just "great" man defender. He basically shut down the greatest scorer in NBA history for 4 straight prime seasons, slowed down another all-time great scorer before his absolute prime and completely dominated every single all-star bigman throughout his prime. He was stronger, longer and more physical than you and he had pride to fight against the best centers ever. I consider Wilt or Hakeem second best man defender at center position and they aren't even close to that level.

Everyone is pretty much calling him the goat post defender. But what is the value of that? Kareem is not the goat scorer...only in a cumulative sense he is.

Being the GOAT post defender is like being the GOAT kicker in American Football. It's important, but there is diminishing returns. Even if someone just edges someone out in the other aspects of the game but were way behind in post defense, it would be better served to get a premium else where.

Why do you think his post defense makes him that much better than everyone? I feel like because Nate is so well known for his post defense, that people change their criteria when judging him and begin to over value man to man defense. I've seen this in every Nate Thurmond thread for 7 years now.

Kareem is definitely one of the best scorers ever. Nate made him look like Jermaine O'Neal.

I don't say that man defense is the most important thing, though I think you underrate its value.

Also, my main point is that Thurmond is very underrated in other aspects of defense. He was elite shotblocker, rebounder, rim protector, good P&R defender. Add to that his GOAT man defense and he's good candidate at this point. It's not only post defense - he was great at contesting shots because of his ridiculously long arms.

What are his weaknesses that makes him less valid candidate than Wallace or Mutombo? I'm not saying he’s better than them, but he's certainly on their tier.

[penbeast0]

I thought Nate lost a little of his luster in 1975. The Warriors traded him for the good but not great Cliff Ray and improved defensively plus they won their first title. His poor scoring wasn't as big a factor by then, he was only taking about 10 shots per 36. It made me wonder how much of an impact he really had. I'd be interested if anyone has the WOWY numbers for Warriors defense during his era (which will be lessened by the fact that during much of the Thurmond era, he had Clyde Lee and/or George Johnson to fill his shoes defensively when he was our) to compare to those for Wilt's defenses. Wilt, btw, also looks very impressive in those head to head stats.

I am looking at Deke, Wilt, Nate, and the Fro at the moment plus willing to listen to arguments for Mikan who I didn't see play.

[Cavsfansince84]

Voting for Thurmond at 4.

[E-Balla]

Deke is by far the best defender post Russell. I wish I knew about this project prior to now but here's some RAPM data (now keep in mind we don't have PI numbers from 94-97 when he peaked and we don't have PI numbers from 2001 so we're missing 3 of his DPOY seasons here).

In Doc MJ's regularized RAPM (which runs from 98-14 missing only 01) Deke's 98-00 average DRAPM z-score is 2.92. First off that means over a period of 3 years his DRAPM was in the 99.7th percentile so already he's way better than everyone else ON AVERAGE. Secondly there's only one other single season (Jason Collins in 05) with a z-score over 2.92. That means only one single season we have measured is as good as Deke's average.

Now some years that are missing in that (97 and 01) we have non PI RAPM data for. In 01 Deke was 2nd to Shawn Bradley in RAPM. In 97 he was 2nd to Bo Outlaw.

Basically in the +/- data era there's no one even close to Deke in terms of defensive impact.

Now this isn't separated much from his reputation. He has the most DPOYs ever along with Ben Wallace. He won them on 3 different teams showing it had nothing to do with his teammates, coach, or even really synergy. No matter what Deke was stopping the opposing offense.

Like seriously he's not even close to the competition. I don't understand how anyone but him was voted in at 2 but don't muck this up again, vote him in at 4.

[70sFan]

Deke is by far the best defender post Russell. I wish I knew about this project prior to now but here's some RAPM data (now keep in mind we don't have PI numbers from 94-97 when he peaked and we don't have PI numbers from 2001 so we're missing 3 of his DPOY seasons here).

In Doc MJ's regularized RAPM (which runs from 98-14 missing only 01) Deke's 98-00 average DRAPM z-score is 2.92. First off that means over a period of 3 years his DRAPM was in the 99.7th percentile so already he's way better than everyone else ON AVERAGE. Secondly there's only one other single season (Jason Collins in 05) with a z-score over 2.92. That means only one single season we have measured is as good as Deke's average.

Now some years that are missing in that (97 and 01) we have non PI RAPM data for. In 01 Deke was 2nd to Shawn Bradley in RAPM. In 97 he was 2nd to Bo Outlaw.

Basically in the +/- data era there's no one even close to Deke in terms of defensive impact.

Now this isn't separated much from his reputation. He has the most DPOYs ever along with Ben Wallace. He won them on 3 different teams showing it had nothing to do with his teammates, coach, or even really synergy. No matter what Deke was stopping the opposing offense.

Like seriously he's not even close to the competition. I don't understand how anyone but him was voted in at 2 but don't muck this up again, vote him in at 4.

Well, I'd definitely take him in advanced stats era over anyone left, but we don't have stats for Wilt and Thurmond. It's not as easy as you may think honestly.

I'm still slightly on Mutombo side, but I'm not convinced to vote him here.

[E-Balla]

Deke is by far the best defender post Russell. I wish I knew about this project prior to now but here's some RAPM data (now keep in mind we don't have PI numbers from 94-97 when he peaked and we don't have PI numbers from 2001 so we're missing 3 of his DPOY seasons here).

In Doc MJ's regularized RAPM (which runs from 98-14 missing only 01) Deke's 98-00 average DRAPM z-score is 2.92. First off that means over a period of 3 years his DRAPM was in the 99.7th percentile so already he's way better than everyone else ON AVERAGE. Secondly there's only one other single season (Jason Collins in 05) with a z-score over 2.92. That means only one single season we have measured is as good as Deke's average.

Now some years that are missing in that (97 and 01) we have non PI RAPM data for. In 01 Deke was 2nd to Shawn Bradley in RAPM. In 97 he was 2nd to Bo Outlaw.

Basically in the +/- data era there's no one even close to Deke in terms of defensive impact.

Now this isn't separated much from his reputation. He has the most DPOYs ever along with Ben Wallace. He won them on 3 different teams showing it had nothing to do with his teammates, coach, or even really synergy. No matter what Deke was stopping the opposing offense.

Like seriously he's not even close to the competition. I don't understand how anyone but him was voted in at 2 but don't muck this up again, vote him in at 4.

Well, I'd definitely take him in advanced stats era over anyone left, but we don't have stats for Wilt and Thurmond. It's not as easy as you may think honestly.

I'm still slightly on Mutombo side, but I'm not convinced to vote him here.

Thurmond I can see mainly for his man defense but without some type of strong evidence he's as great as Deke I can't see putting him over Deke. Wilt? Not seeing it. He just didn't play defense consistently if you look at his team DRTGs.