2017 Westbrook vs. 2019 Giannis

[Jim Naismith]

Which player would you take?

2017 Russell Westbrook
vs.
2019 Giannis Antetokounmpo

Vote above.

[No-more-rings]

I’d say Giannis, he’s just way better defensively and I can’t overlook that.

[Jim Naismith]

I’d say Giannis, he’s just way better defensively and I can’t overlook that.

Are you saying he's better than 2014 Durant, 2015 Curry, 2016 Curry, 2017 Westbrook, and 2018 Harden?

All these MVPs have worse defense than Giannis.

[No-more-rings]

I’d say Giannis, he’s just way better defensively and I can’t overlook that.

Are you saying he's better than 2014 Durant, 2015 Curry, 2016 Curry, 2017 Westbrook, and 2018 Harden?

All these MVPs have worse defense than Giannis.

I’d say probably on all those except for 2016 Curry. We’ll still have to see how he does in the playoffs though.

[JohnWall2]

I’d say Giannis, he’s just way better defensively and I can’t overlook that.

Are you saying he's better than 2014 Durant, 2015 Curry, 2016 Curry, 2017 Westbrook, and 2018 Harden?

All these MVPs have worse defense than Giannis.

I’d say probably on all those except for 2016 Curry. We’ll still have to see how he does in the playoffs though.

2014 Durant? I probably hate him more than 99% of players but he was unreal that yeah. Peak Durant for sure.

[Gooner]

Westbrook easily, he could do more offensively. Giannis can be slowed down in half court.

[Jiminy Glick]

Giannis for sure, way better offensive and defensive player.

[E-Balla]

Westbrook easily. 2nd best season since I've been watching 200+ games a year. 31/11/10, best clutch season since 97 (as far back as the stats go), and an amazing playoff series where the true impact he had on the team was shown with the team getting destroyed the second he sat. Tons of people downplayed the year as it happened but Westbrook shooting 34% from deep is just unstoppable.

[No-more-rings]

Westbrook easily. 2nd best season since I've been watching 200+ games a year.
.

When did you start watching? Because no matter how high you are on him, Lebron undoubtedly has had multiple seasons better over the last decade.

[HeatBeast]

Westbrook. He may have some flaws, but so does Giannis. Westbrook's flaws as far as I saw in 2017 are fixable as long as he'd put the effort into fixing them. His defense for example (probably his biggest flaw IMO) was actually good when he wasn't lazy on that end.

As for Giannis' flaws, he gives all the effort he's got in a game, but that can't fix his lack of a jumper for example (which I personally think is his biggest flaw).

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[bledredwine]

Westbrook easily, he could do more offensively. Giannis can be slowed down in half court.

This.

[E-Balla]

Westbrook easily. 2nd best season since I've been watching 200+ games a year.
.

When did you start watching? Because no matter how high you are on him, Lebron undoubtedly has had multiple seasons better over the last decade.

2009 is the only one I'd put over Westbrook in 17 as a body of work (because Lebron's been better than Westbrook other seasons, but he hasn't had to always show it on the court). 2012 is close but he had a great team and wasn't required to be a one man army and a force of nature like he was in 09 and Westbrook was in 17.

EDIT: It's easy to forget what Westbrook did in the clutch that year so here it is -

60 points per 36
12.9 rebounds per 36
6.8 assists per 36
4.6 TOVs per 36
56.9 TS%
+24.4 net rating

In terms of individual moments? He brought the Thunder back from down 14, hit the game-tying shot and then won in overtime against Orlando. He scored 12 points in the final ~3 minutes and hit the game-winner to beat the Mavericks. He scored the Thunder’s last 15 points (after being down big) and hit a buzzer-beater to beat the Nuggets and secure a win in his record breaking triple double game. He went on a 15-0 run by himself against the Grizzlies over ~2.5 minutes to beat them. He scored 11 of the last 13 to beat the Jazz. He scored 19 of the last 22 against the Blazers to win. He dunked on Capela to seal a game against Houston. He made a game winning and1 against the Jazz. Honestly I don't think we'll see anything like it in the clutch again.

[No-more-rings]

Westbrook easily. 2nd best season since I've been watching 200+ games a year.
.

When did you start watching? Because no matter how high you are on him, Lebron undoubtedly has had multiple seasons better over the last decade.

2009 is the only one I'd put over Westbrook in 17 as a body of work (because Lebron's been better than Westbrook other seasons, but he hasn't had to always show it on the court). 2012 is close but he had a great team and wasn't required to be a one man army and a force of nature like he was in 09 and Westbrook was in 17.

I don’t see the argument over these Lebron versions at all:

2009
2010
2012
2013
2016
2017

Other than “tripple doublezz!”, can’t fathom an argument. And most if not all of those seasons, Lebron was just better on both ends, defense especially.

[E-Balla]

When did you start watching? Because no matter how high you are on him, Lebron undoubtedly has had multiple seasons better over the last decade.

2009 is the only one I'd put over Westbrook in 17 as a body of work (because Lebron's been better than Westbrook other seasons, but he hasn't had to always show it on the court). 2012 is close but he had a great team and wasn't required to be a one man army and a force of nature like he was in 09 and Westbrook was in 17.

I don’t see the argument over these Lebron versions at all:

2009
2010
2012
2013
2016
2017

Other than “tripple doublezz!”, can’t fathom an argument. And most if not all of those seasons, Lebron was just better on both ends, defense especially.

2010? Lebron gave up on his team in the middle of a playoff series. Hell nah. 2013? Played like ass the majority of the Finals, people forget now but after game 5 it was being compared to the 2011 Finals. 16 and 17? Well Westbrook was in the league both years and better than Lebron obviously in 17 and 2nd only to Lebron in 16 (and he improved in 17 enough for me to think he was better that year). I know it's easy to forget the flaws and think of Lebron as one big great blur but Lebron wasn't uber consistent season to season, only twice (09 and 12) could I say Lebron played the whole season at 100% not going through the motions in any key moments.

[No-more-rings]

2009 is the only one I'd put over Westbrook in 17 as a body of work (because Lebron's been better than Westbrook other seasons, but he hasn't had to always show it on the court). 2012 is close but he had a great team and wasn't required to be a one man army and a force of nature like he was in 09 and Westbrook was in 17.

I don’t see the argument over these Lebron versions at all:

2009
2010
2012
2013
2016
2017

Other than “tripple doublezz!”, can’t fathom an argument. And most if not all of those seasons, Lebron was just better on both ends, defense especially.

2010? Lebron gave up on his team in the middle of a playoff series. Hell nah. 2013? Played like ass the majority of the Finals, people forget now but after game 5 it was being compared to the 2011 Finals. 16 and 17? Well Westbrook was in the league both years and better than Lebron obviously in 17 and 2nd only to Lebron in 16 (and he improved in 17 enough for me to think he was better that year). I know it's easy to forget the flaws and think of Lebron as one big great blur but Lebron wasn't uber consistent season to season, only twice (09 and 12) could I say Lebron played the whole season at 100% not going through the motions in any key moments.

I don’t think you can knock Lebron for underperforming in key moments, when Westbrook didn’t get that far to begin with.

2010- Lebron put up 27/19/10 with 9 turnovers on bad shooting efficiency in game 6, that sounds like a typical playoff Westbrook game. Maybe Westbrook quits a lot too?

2013- You can’t knock him for one underperforming series, when Westbrook in his place doesn’t even beat Indiana to get there.

[E-Balla]

I don’t see the argument over these Lebron versions at all:

2009
2010
2012
2013
2016
2017

Other than “tripple doublezz!”, can’t fathom an argument. And most if not all of those seasons, Lebron was just better on both ends, defense especially.

2010? Lebron gave up on his team in the middle of a playoff series. Hell nah. 2013? Played like ass the majority of the Finals, people forget now but after game 5 it was being compared to the 2011 Finals. 16 and 17? Well Westbrook was in the league both years and better than Lebron obviously in 17 and 2nd only to Lebron in 16 (and he improved in 17 enough for me to think he was better that year). I know it's easy to forget the flaws and think of Lebron as one big great blur but Lebron wasn't uber consistent season to season, only twice (09 and 12) could I say Lebron played the whole season at 100% not going through the motions in any key moments.

I don’t think you can knock Lebron for underperforming in key moments, when Westbrook didn’t get that far to begin with.

2010- Lebron put up 27/19/10 with 9 turnovers on bad shooting efficiency in game 6, that sounds like a typical playoff Westbrook game. Maybe Westbrook quits a lot too?

2013- You can’t knock him for one underperforming series, when Westbrook in his place doesn’t even beat Indiana to get there.

It's not on Westbrook that they didn't get far. Lebron also wouldn't win if every time he hit the bench for 4 minutes they lost the double digit lead he gave them.

In 2010 you're looking at the boxscore but maybe you forgot the games. Up 2-1 Lebron had 22/9/8 with 7 TOVs on 7-18 shooting in game 4. In game 5 he played what was easily his worst playoff game ever and the game where it was obvious he was giving up on Cleveland. They were down 50-44 at half and ended up losing by 32. Lebron had zero points in the 4th (iirc) and quite obviously looked like he didn't want to be on the floor. Game 6 he gave effort but it was way too little too late. He already gave up on the team tied 2-2 and in game 6 everyone on the Cavs gave up and it seemed like Lebron was doing the most just to shut up the people calling him out for obviously giving no effort the previous game. Kind of playing dumb on purpose to go "see? I couldn't beat them even if I tried!"

And as far as 2013 goes the argument that his performance in the Finals doesn't matter because WB wouldn't have made it there is absurd because first off you can't say that (all of Miami's wins aside from game 1 weren't close - Westbrook definitely wins all those games still), and second off that ring still counts. You don't refer to Lebron as a 2 time champion do you? Nope, so his performance in those Finals games are still completely relevant and how invisible he was is too. Personally I think you can have all the talent in the world but if you don't give effort when it matters most it's irrelevant. 2017 Westbrook gave all the effort when it mattered most and took a crap team to tons of wins they shouldn't have had. 2013 Lebron nearly dropped a Finals series against a far inferior team because it took him 5.75 games and losing his headband for him to show up.

[No-more-rings]

2010? Lebron gave up on his team in the middle of a playoff series. Hell nah. 2013? Played like ass the majority of the Finals, people forget now but after game 5 it was being compared to the 2011 Finals. 16 and 17? Well Westbrook was in the league both years and better than Lebron obviously in 17 and 2nd only to Lebron in 16 (and he improved in 17 enough for me to think he was better that year). I know it's easy to forget the flaws and think of Lebron as one big great blur but Lebron wasn't uber consistent season to season, only twice (09 and 12) could I say Lebron played the whole season at 100% not going through the motions in any key moments.

I don’t think you can knock Lebron for underperforming in key moments, when Westbrook didn’t get that far to begin with.

2010- Lebron put up 27/19/10 with 9 turnovers on bad shooting efficiency in game 6, that sounds like a typical playoff Westbrook game. Maybe Westbrook quits a lot too?

2013- You can’t knock him for one underperforming series, when Westbrook in his place doesn’t even beat Indiana to get there.

It's not on Westbrook that they didn't get far. Lebron also wouldn't win if every time he hit the bench for 4 minutes they lost the double digit lead he gave them.

In 2010 you're looking at the boxscore but maybe you forgot the games. Up 2-1 Lebron had 22/9/8 with 7 TOVs on 7-18 shooting in game 4. In game 5 he played what was easily his worst playoff game ever and the game where it was obvious he was giving up on Cleveland. They were down 50-44 at half and ended up losing by 32. Lebron had zero points in the 4th (iirc) and quite obviously looked like he didn't want to be on the floor. Game 6 he gave effort but it was way too little too late. He already gave up on the team tied 2-2 and in game 6 everyone on the Cavs gave up and it seemed like Lebron was doing the most just to shut up the people calling him out for obviously giving no effort the previous game. Kind of playing dumb on purpose to go "see? I couldn't beat them even if I tried!"

And as far as 2013 goes the argument that his performance in the Finals doesn't matter because WB wouldn't have made it there is absurd because first off you can't say that (all of Miami's wins aside from game 1 weren't close - Westbrook definitely wins all those games still), and second off that ring still counts. You don't refer to Lebron as a 2 time champion do you? Nope, so his performance in those Finals games are still completely relevant and how invisible he was is too. Personally I think you can have all the talent in the world but if you don't give effort when it matters most it's irrelevant. 2017 Westbrook gave all the effort when it mattered most and took a crap team to tons of wins they shouldn't have had. 2013 Lebron nearly dropped a Finals series against a far inferior team because it took him 5.75 games and losing his headband for him to show up.

Do you think 2017 Westbrook with that Cavs supporting cast beats the Celtics in 2010? I really don’t think so, so again I don’t really get the criticism. I’d probably have to rewatch those couple bad games, and see how much merit there is to the quitting thing, but it’s still narrative based and not based on anything concrete. He didn’t perform well, but we’ve seen god awful games from Westbrook too. Instead of be passive Westbrook would do something like shoot his team out of the games.

What made 2013 Spurs far inferior to the Heat? Duncan gave them a lot of trouble inside, and their 3 point shooting destroyed the Heat in a few of those games. Does Westbrook fix any of those issues? It probably should’ve been a 6 game series instead of 7, but the Spurs were super formidable and ran through the west that year. This all feels really nitpicky though because to me it’s like you’re trying to say Westbrook is a better playoff performer than Lebron, which is absurd and i’m surprised an opinion like that would come from you because you seem level headed for the most part.

[E-Balla]

Do you think 2017 Westbrook with that Cavs supporting cast beats the Celtics in 2010?

Nope.

I really don’t think so, so again I don’t really get the criticism.

Even though they probably wouldn't have won anyway they definitely aren't going to win with their best player giving up on them. Chances to win went from like 25% to 0%. Plus on a better team who's to say he doesn't give up again, because he most definitely gave up in 2011 the year after.

I’d probably have to rewatch those couple bad games, and see how much merit there is to the quitting thing, but it’s still narrative based and not based on anything concrete. He didn’t perform well, but we’ve seen god awful games from Westbrook too. Instead of be passive Westbrook would do something like shoot his team out of the games.

If I have a one man team I'd rather see the star shoot the team out a game than to see them not show up and rely on Mo Williams to be the man. Being bad and not playing hard aren't the same. Lebron can be bad (I never criticize his 07 Finals or the few games of the 15 Finals where he sucked) and I'm cool with that. Giving up I'm not cool with.

What made 2013 Spurs far inferior to the Heat? Duncan gave them a lot of trouble inside, and their 3 point shooting destroyed the Heat in a few of those games. Does Westbrook fix any of those issues? It probably should’ve been a 6 game series instead of 7, but the Spurs were super formidable and ran through the west that year. This all feels really nitpicky though because to me it’s like you’re trying to say Westbrook is a better playoff performer than Lebron, which is absurd and i’m surprised an opinion like that would come from you because you seem level headed for the most part.

No I'm not trying to say that. I'm trying to say for that one season where Westbrook's shot was falling and everything seemed to come together for him that yes he was better than Lebron. Ask the same question but about Westbrook's 2nd best season (for my money 2016) and I'd put 08-17 Lebron solidly over him excluding maybe 2014 and 2011. It was only for one year but for one year Westbrook was GOAT level IMO.

[Karate Diop]

Giannis and it's not close. Are we really going to pretend that Westbrook wasn't an extremely me-first stat-focused player in 2017? Come on FAM, 2017 wasn't that long ago...

[bondom34]

Giannis and it's not close. Are we really going to pretend that Westbrook wasn't an extremely me-first stat-focused player in 2017? Come on FAM, 2017 wasn't that long ago...

We have a lot of metrics and things to back this not being true up.