#6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

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#6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Mon Jan 7, 2019 6:14 pm

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Horace Grant


Centers:

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Wilt Chamberlain

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Ben Wallace
Patrick Ewing
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard
Nate Thurmond
Bill Walton
Rudy Gobert
George Mikan
Artis Gilmore
Willis Reed
Wes Unseld
Jack Sikma
Andrew Bogut
Tree Rollins
Theo Ratliff
Mark Eaton
Manute Bol
Shawn Bradley
Marc Gasol
Tyson Chandler
Marcus Camby
Joakim Noah
DeAndre Jordan
Roy Hibbert
Dave Cowens
Robert Parish
Vlade Divac
George Johnson
Caldwell Jones
Clifford Ray
Bill Laimbeer
Yao Ming
Nene Hilario
Al Horford
[/b]



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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#2 » by trex_8063 » Mon Jan 7, 2019 8:14 pm

Speaking for myself, I'll be deciding between Ben Wallace, Nate Thurmond, and Patrick Ewing (who I believe should be getting serious consideration at this point). Also on the back-burner (likely close to where he should be getting some consideration, or at least discussion) is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#3 » by KnickFan33 » Mon Jan 7, 2019 8:24 pm

Patrick Ewing

He has less accolades than some remaining, but the competition he had (Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson, Mourning, etc.) was pretty much the golden age for Centers.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#4 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Jan 7, 2019 8:33 pm

Yeah, I feel like Kareem and Dwight are both being forgotten and should be discussed soon. TBH, I considered Wilt and Kareem to be about equal as defenders and just went with Wilt last thread because I liked him best among those under serious consideration. I definitely don’t consider myself an expert on pre-1990 defenders though.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#5 » by SkyHookFTW » Mon Jan 7, 2019 9:11 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:Yeah, I feel like Kareem and Dwight are both being forgotten and should be discussed soon. TBH, I considered Wilt and Kareem to be about equal as defenders and just went with Wilt last thread because I liked him best among those under serious consideration. I definitely don’t consider myself an expert on pre-1990 defenders though.

Kareem could never bang in the post like Wilt or Nate. Moses usually abused Kareem head to head in their matchups. Kareem had a real weakness going up against physical centers. Old Man Wilt gave Kareem all he could handle; prime Wilt would have beat down Kareem inside all game.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#6 » by Jaivl » Mon Jan 7, 2019 9:22 pm

Nate Thurmond is the last remaining player before it's a pick-em, IMO.

Take a look at ElGee's WOWY data and look who Thurmond shares the spotlight with.
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That includes a -6 SRS to +4 SRS lift on the 25 games he missed between 1967 and 1968. Consistently anchored average to strong defenses (five of them below -2 rDRtg) with seemingly unreliable and rotating personnel.

Elite one-on-one defender (opposing centers routinely underperforming vs him, as shown by data).

Very strong rebounder (~15 rebounds per 75 poss on prime, ~12 rebounds per 75 poss post-1974).
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#7 » by SkyHookFTW » Mon Jan 7, 2019 9:32 pm

I’m looking over data, but I am leaning toward Nate Thurmond for this spot.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#8 » by kendogg » Mon Jan 7, 2019 9:35 pm

I think my serious considerations for this pick are

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nate Thurmond
Ben Wallace
Patrick Ewing

Others I considered are Artis Gilmore, Alonzo Mourning, Marcus Camby, Dwight Howard

Man Defense: Nate and Ben probably are tops here, but honestly going more by rep on Nate. I've seen pretty much all the available Wilt and Russ footage but not sure how much is available for Nate. Pat is no slouch though for his size he is quite athletic. Neither is Kareem, but he is the lankiest of the group.

Rim protection: I think Kareem might have the best peak. Kareem would have gotten at least 1 DPOY IMO had the award been around, though Pat probably got robbed as well. Nate is somewhat of a question mark, and Ben is close but I think even if their peaks are comparable their career impact is not.

Longevity: Kareem. Pat is a pretty distant 2nd

1. Ben has some red flags (Detroit was stacked with defenders, he wasn't particularly great outside of Detroit).
2. Nate's era has pretty much no advanced stats so we are relying more on era experts.
3. Pat's numbers don't jump out like some of the players, but he was a full package player that was consistent and smart and played within his limits.
4. Kareem's peak and longevity are so good it is hard to put him any lower.

I think my answer is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. It's tough though.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Mon Jan 7, 2019 9:48 pm

I'll probably vote for Thurmond, but I'm going to do more research before. He's the most impressive candidate to me and I think he closes "the greatest" tier. Ewing and Wallace are probably next, then one of Kareem/Gilmore/Eaton/Mourning/Dwight.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#10 » by FrogBros4Life » Mon Jan 7, 2019 10:08 pm

I think it's down to Thurmond and Ewing for this spot, with Wallace next after those two. I was initially ready to vote Thurmond here earlier, but Trex made a valid point that I may have been giving Thurmond too much credit relative to the other candidates based on available data. I think Thurmond was a slightly better man to man defender (in fact, the great centers of that era's averages against Thurmond is probably his biggest selling point), but Ewing was a significantly better team defender. Ewing anchored an elite defense for about a decade, and in 92-93 and 93-94, the Knicks ran out one of the best defenses in the history of the league. Thurmond and Ewing's respective era's are the two best eras for centers...but in a league with fewer teams, Thurmond had to go up against the other elite bigs more times over the course of a season...so it somewhat comes down to what you value more in this project, man D or team D, and to what degree.

As a comparison, I personally think both Olajuwon and Ewing were better PnR/switch defenders than David Robinson (and Thurmond), with Ewing incredibly underrated in that department, especially pre-1998. To Robinson's credit, he was probably better in the Pnr/switch on plays where the guard drove all the way to basket, but Ewing and Olajuwon were better on plays where the offensive player tried to juke around the perimeter before taking a jump shot. I can vividly remember Ewing making game and playoff series winning blocks/shot alterations on players like Tim Hardaway and Reggie Miller (among others) all the way out at the 3 point line.

(Here's one example: block on Hardaway's 3PA, end of the game - )

I was expecting Thurmond to have a massive rebounding edge, which also factored into my earlier placement of Thurmond, but after a closer look at the data, their per 100 possession and TRB% stats (where available) are quite similar. We don't have this data for Thurmond's entire career, so while I'll still give Thurmond the edge here, it's probably not quite as substantial as I was thinking. Forgotten about Ewing is that even though he had an offensive debacle of a series, he did set two defensive records in the 94 finals: most blocks in a finals game and most blocks in a 7 game series (in a series with limited shot attempts, and neither team scoring more than 93 points in any of the games). Ewing also had superior longevity and did all of his defensive damage prior to 1999 while being his team's primary scoring option, which makes his sustained impact on that side of the ball even more impressive.

I'm going to vote Ewing here even though my gut said Thurmond when the vote on centers first started, though I can see a case for Thurmond and wouldn't disagree with anyone who voted him. I don't see an argument for Wallace yet that doesn't hinge on DPOY and 1st Team All D selections (both of which are highly subjective). Ewing and Thurmond were both better man defenders, and I think Ewing was at least equal as a team defender to Wallace, probably better, with clearly better longevity.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#11 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jan 7, 2019 10:53 pm

IF Gilmore had defended in the NBA like he did in the ABA, I'd have him much higher but partially defensive schemes that kept him closer to the basket, partially knee issues, partially his less aggressive personality, I have a hard time with putting someone whose late career nickname was Rigor Artis up too high. (This from someone who feels overall Gilmore is roughly on a par with Ewing . . . better offensively).

I do think both Nate and Ben suffer from longevity issues compared to players like Kareem (even counting only peak) and Patrick but Thurmond's man to man numbers and WOWY numbers, the best available statistical evidence we have, show him to be probably the top defender remaining. Vote NATE THURMOND
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#12 » by bledredwine » Mon Jan 7, 2019 10:55 pm

This is definitely between Wallace, Ewing, Thurmond for me.

Vote Ben Wallace
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#13 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jan 7, 2019 10:58 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Speaking for myself, I'll be deciding between Ben Wallace, Nate Thurmond, and Patrick Ewing (who I believe should be getting serious consideration at this point). Also on the back-burner (likely close to where he should be getting some consideration, or at least discussion) is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.


No Shawn Bradley? :naaa:
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#14 » by kendogg » Tue Jan 8, 2019 12:04 am

I'm kinda low on the trees like Eaton and such. They are pretty much 1 trick wonders. Even if that one trick is pretty good. Though I hope someone will try and make a case.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#15 » by SkyHookFTW » Tue Jan 8, 2019 12:26 am

It comes down to Thurmond vs. Ewing for me. As a man/post defender Thurmond has the edge, and I will go by my eye test and what his contemporaries said about his play. Thurmond was also a very good shot blocker for a good portion of his career, getting 12 blocks in a game that became the first time a player recorded an official NBA quad-double (Bill and Wilt probably did it but we have no official block numbers from their playing days). I consider Ewing to be the better team/help defender.

I turned to rebounding for an additional insight. Frog said something about Thurmond and Ewing's rebounding numbers to be about the same while citing the incompleteness of data for Thurmond, so I took it in a different direction.

Going by regular season numbers, Thurmond played 35881 minutes while gathering 14464 boards in those minutes. That comes out to about 0.405 of a rebound for every minute played. Ewing played 40594 minutes while gathering 11607 boards, which comes out to 0.285 of a rebound for every minute played. Rebounding splits appear to be about equal between offensive and defensive rebounds, so I would conclude that Thurmond simply gathered more rebounds, and thus more defensive rebounds over a similar time on the court than Ewing did.

I think it's close, but my vote goes to Nate Thurmond.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#16 » by Samurai » Tue Jan 8, 2019 12:30 am

Repeating my vote for Nate Thurmond. As a Warrior fan, I was able to see a lot of Thurmond, both on TV and at both the Oakland Coliseum and the Cow Palace before that. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of those not voting for Thurmond never saw him play live. As someone who had the chance to see Big Nate play live, as well as the others in contention (Kareem, Deke, Wilt, Big Ben, etc.), my view is that Nate was better defensively in his era than the others were in their era. And that is the primary point for me. As I've said before, I have never seen an actual functioning time-machine, so I have no idea how well Nate would do if he were transported to 2003 just as I don't know how Ben Wallace would do if he were transported to the 1960's. And since this is a basketball forum and not a science fiction forum, playing Back to the Future games is not relevant. Looking at these centers and how they played under the conditions they played under, I am comfortable voting for Thurmond.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#17 » by cecilthesheep » Tue Jan 8, 2019 12:55 am

I will vote once again for Nate Thurmond.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#18 » by kendogg » Tue Jan 8, 2019 1:10 am

Oh and speaking of trying to make a case for someone, I wanted to try and make a case for Shaq (and Artis I suppose). While its probable he won't make the top 10, he was a rebounding and rim protecting force, and I think pretty comfortably top 3 strength all time.

Shaq doesn't just have a small strength advantage over most players, he has a monstrous one. A monstrous strength advantage gives you a couple advantages as a center.

Firstly, in opposing guys posting him up, it is extremely hard to do, because most back to the basket post players like to seal up and use their feel to make moves. You often seal using your arm to wall, well Shaq is so strong he can really punish players with his walled arm and good luck getting any ground. It really discourages anyone from trying to seal on Shaq when you take a beating every single time. Same with other guys in his stratosphere of strength like Wilt or Artis. Mere mortals at center do not try to bang against guys like that unless you want to spend a month in recovery.

Secondly, aggressive moves to the basket are also discouraged, and dunking in particular. Even if Shaq is forced to foul, getting knocked on your ass by a 350lb guy doesn't feel too good, and you better hope you fall on your ass if he clips your arm and you go flying. And even less so if you try and dunk and he messes up your arm/hand.

Now I didn't watch a whole lot of Artis, and there isn't much on Wilt but I did watch all his publicly available stuff. But I watched pretty much all of Shaq's career and I can say that players did not try to seal him much, or dunk on him very often. I think he was legit dunked on (chest to chest) like once or twice in his career. There's a lot of back to the basket guys he took completely out of their game without trying because of the physical disadvantage, and turned them into midrange jump shooters.

Does Shaq's strength outweigh his poor man defense? That is a tough question. Against teams that like to play inside, Shaq's value goes up. In big man dominated eras, he shines. In the 3-pt era, his gravitas is so strong that most teams would be forced to adjust to him otherwise he'd torch them. 50% from 3 is still 1.5 points per shot. Dunk is 2 points per shot. As soon as Shaq retired so did about 40 guys teams used as bodies against Shaq. Yes that is because of his offense, but if you are forced to play a **** offensive player to deal with him, that's 1 less threat the defense has to worry about. So his defensive aura exceeds his stats. But in the era he played, one of the 2 big man eras, he was a force.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#19 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jan 8, 2019 3:59 am

kendogg wrote:Oh and speaking of trying to make a case for someone, I wanted to try and make a case for Shaq (and Artis I suppose). While its probable he won't make the top 10, he was a rebounding and rim protecting force, and I think pretty comfortably top 3 strength all time.

Shaq doesn't just have a small strength advantage over most players, he has a monstrous one. A monstrous strength advantage gives you a couple advantages as a center.

Firstly, in opposing guys posting him up, it is extremely hard to do, because most back to the basket post players like to seal up and use their feel to make moves. You often seal using your arm to wall, well Shaq is so strong he can really punish players with his walled arm and good luck getting any ground. It really discourages anyone from trying to seal on Shaq when you take a beating every single time. Same with other guys in his stratosphere of strength like Wilt or Artis. Mere mortals at center do not try to bang against guys like that unless you want to spend a month in recovery.

Secondly, aggressive moves to the basket are also discouraged, and dunking in particular. Even if Shaq is forced to foul, getting knocked on your ass by a 350lb guy doesn't feel too good, and you better hope you fall on your ass if he clips your arm and you go flying. And even less so if you try and dunk and he messes up your arm/hand.

Now I didn't watch a whole lot of Artis, and there isn't much on Wilt but I did watch all his publicly available stuff. But I watched pretty much all of Shaq's career and I can say that players did not try to seal him much, or dunk on him very often. I think he was legit dunked on (chest to chest) like once or twice in his career. There's a lot of back to the basket guys he took completely out of their game without trying because of the physical disadvantage, and turned them into midrange jump shooters.

Does Shaq's strength outweigh his poor man defense? That is a tough question. Against teams that like to play inside, Shaq's value goes up. In big man dominated eras, he shines. In the 3-pt era, his gravitas is so strong that most teams would be forced to adjust to him otherwise he'd torch them. 50% from 3 is still 1.5 points per shot. Dunk is 2 points per shot. As soon as Shaq retired so did about 40 guys teams used as bodies against Shaq. Yes that is because of his offense, but if you are forced to play a **** offensive player to deal with him, that's 1 less threat the defense has to worry about. So his defensive aura exceeds his stats. But in the era he played, one of the 2 big man eras, he was a force.


One Shaq fact, 82games.com ran a study of who gave up the most and the least and-1 plays for a year during Shaq's career (might be more info if you can find it; I haven't looked). Shaq gave up less than half as many and-1 plays as the second rated player; basically, if Shaq fouled you, you were really fouled and weren't going to make the shot too. FWIW.
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Re: #6 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#20 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jan 8, 2019 4:05 am

SkyHookFTW wrote:It comes down to Thurmond vs. Ewing for me. As a man/post defender Thurmond has the edge, and I will go by my eye test and what his contemporaries said about his play. Thurmond was also a very good shot blocker for a good portion of his career, getting 12 blocks in a game that became the first time a player recorded an official NBA quad-double (Bill and Wilt probably did it but we have no official block numbers from their playing days). I consider Ewing to be the better team/help defender.

I turned to rebounding for an additional insight. Frog said something about Thurmond and Ewing's rebounding numbers to be about the same while citing the incompleteness of data for Thurmond, so I took it in a different direction.

Going by regular season numbers, Thurmond played 35881 minutes while gathering 14464 boards in those minutes. That comes out to about 0.405 of a rebound for every minute played. Ewing played 40594 minutes while gathering 11607 boards, which comes out to 0.285 of a rebound for every minute played. Rebounding splits appear to be about equal between offensive and defensive rebounds, so I would conclude that Thurmond simply gathered more rebounds, and thus more defensive rebounds over a similar time on the court than Ewing did.

I think it's close, but my vote goes to Nate Thurmond.


Did you adjust for rebound availability? Nate played in a faster paced era with lower efficiency percentages, there were appreciably more rebounds available. Not sure whether that's enough to erase Nate's edge, but looking at Rodman v. Wilt/Russell, that plus adjusting for Wilt/Russell playing bigger minutes was enough to erase a 7 or 8 rebound per game edge to the 60s stars and make the all-time rebound rate leaders (that I have checked) Rodman, then Russell, then Wilt and bring some other guys within reach of Wilt and Russell in a way that raw rebounds or rebounds per game don't come close to (there's also questions about team rebounds which were counted differently, etc.). There was a nice article pinned on the statistical analysis board by TrueLAFan looking at this question.
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