RealGM

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Horace Grant


Centers:

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Nate Thurmond

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Ben Wallace
Patrick Ewing
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard
Bill Walton
Rudy Gobert
George Mikan
Artis Gilmore
Willis Reed
Wes Unseld
Jack Sikma
Andrew Bogut
Tree Rollins
Theo Ratliff
Mark Eaton
Manute Bol
Shawn Bradley
Marc Gasol
Tyson Chandler
Marcus Camby
Joakim Noah
DeAndre Jordan
Roy Hibbert
Dave Cowens
Robert Parish
Vlade Divac
George Johnson
Caldwell Jones
Clifford Ray
Bill Laimbeer
Yao Ming
Nene Hilario
Al Horford
[/b]



Hi guys
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Definitely between Patrick Ewing and Ben Wallace for me (tentatively went with Ewing last thread). I don't think Kareem would be a terrible pick either.
Just a little behind this group for me would be Alonzo Mourning, Artis Gilmore, or Dwight Howard (maybe Mark Eaton, too, for that matter).

Of the remaining guys who has the best defensive peak?
Should Camby get more attention?

Of the people left Is Manute Bol the best half court help defender on a per minute basis?

I'm gonna go with Ben Wallace here

Voting for Kareem Abdul Jabbar. His 11 All Defensive Team awards (5 firsts and 6 seconds) exceeds the number of selections for both Ben Wallace and Patrick Ewing combined.

However, it is the eye test more than accolades that is driving my vote. As I've posted repeatedly before, no center that I have seen has impacted another team's offensive strategy to the degree that Milwaukee Kareem did. (Note: I am not including Russell since I only saw him in his last 2 years). Kareem took away the other team's penetration to such a degree that the Bucks were able to clearly overplay their man to one side, just daring them to drive to the rim. And when they did, Kareem discouraged the drivers to such an extent that by the second half they resorted to outside jump shots. And yes, I have seen Hakeem, Deke, Ewing, Howard and Gilmore throughout their careers (with the exception of ABA Gilmore - ABA games were not televised much at all). In the games I saw, none of them impacted the other team's offensive philosophy more than Kareem did during his Milwaukee days. Oscar Robertson described the impact of having such a dominant rim protector and how it shaped the Bucks' defensive strategy in the book "Alcindor and the Big O" by John Devaney.

And while I have some doubts that Kareem could have had that same level of impact in another era, I have been pretty consistent in my belief that functioning time machines do NOT exist and thus I have kept my voting preferences to how a player actually performed in their own era, against their peers who were all playing under the same conditions. I have tried to keep science fiction out of my voting preferences. Right or wrong, I am going to stay consistent with that principle here, or at least until I am convinced that time machines exist.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Of the remaining guys who has the best defensive peak?
Should Camby get more attention?

Of the people left Is Manute Bol the best half court help defender on a per minute basis?

Just my opinion(s), mind you.....

Best Peak left - I would say probably Ben Wallace (though could make a case for maybe Alonzo Mourning, and certainly not by a big margin over Patrick Ewing or Dwight Howard, imo; he's also a touch lacking in longevity compared to Ewing).

Camby deserving attention? - Probably not quite yet, imo. I think he lacks the defensive peak of Wallace (or Mourning, Ewing, or Howard, perhaps), and his longevity as an elite defender is behind both Ewing and Wallace. So imo, he doesn't become a valid pick AT LEAST until those two are off the table.

Bol: best halfcourt help defender per minute? - Actually, I think he might be. I remember watching a Sixers game from I think '90 or '91, and they popped up some stat showing the difference in opp FG% and Pts/48 when Bol was on the court vs when he was off, and it was staggering how huge the difference was.
The "per minute" is the operative phrase, though. He only played 11,698 total minutes (ten seasons avg just 18.7 mpg for his career [and missing substantial games each year toward the end]). No matter how good you are on a per minute basis, I cannot give you serious consideration if you're only on the court 19 mpg and have a short career besides.

For whatever it's worth, I think Bol would struggle to find time on the court in the modern era. He fits well in earlier eras (and perhaps especially the 80's and early 90's), but would struggle to be effective defending in space or away from the basket.

I remember Bol in Washington when Jeff Ruland went down with an injury and Bol took his minutes and the team didn't miss a beat (well, they lost a lot of offense and gained it back on the defensive end). He was the greatest shotblocker in history. Of course, I also remember that he couldn't guard anyone man to man; guys like Felton Spencer looked like the second coming of Shaq in the post unless he blocked the shot and Greg Ostertag could put the ball on the ground and go around him. So, I'm just not willing to rate him that highly unless the statistical evidence is clear and compelling.

I'm leaning Ben Wallace unless talked out of it but willing to listen.

Ben Wallace is already two spots late.

Vote Big Ben

Between Ben Wallace and Patrick Ewing for me. I had Ben Wallace as my #7 going into this and unless I find something more compelling for Ewing I'm probably going with Big Ben.

Ewing

Ben Wallace is exactly right where he deserves to be. Maybe... I'm not sure at all he's better than Kareem here.

Ben Wallace will get my vote here - Ewing is worthy of the #8 spot.

Ewing

Well it is between Kareem, Ewing and Wallace for me.

Kareem compares well to these 2 in almost all stats for peak and wins on the career value. Kareem was arguably the best defensive center in the league after Wilt retired (73) up until the early 80's. Kareem did not have a lot of bounce in his step. He was pretty agile for his size though and was very smooth and had great timing. He was good at poking the ball away from guys as well for a big man. In his career with the Bucks, they were either the 2nd or 3rd best defensive team every year, and that's with playing with an old ass Oscar who was never an elite defender. And had to go against Wilt's Lakers and Frazier/Reed/Debusschere Knicks. When Kareem was on the Lakers they were mostly an average to above average defensive team, though there were a number of defensive powerhouses in the 80's.

Wallace has perhaps the best peak, though it is not completely certain. For one, he is a defensive specialist unlike Kareem/Ewing so he got to rest on offense a lot (I'm not docking him points for that, but in a close race it could be tiebreaker). Also as stated a few times the Pistons were stacked defensively (Sheed, Prince, Billups, Rip, Hunter are all good to elite defenders that year) and he wasn't particularly great outside of those Pistons years. He was still certainly the best defender on those Pistons. And those 04' Pistons were one of the best defensive teams of all time. His productive career is quite short though. Also many advanced stats weren't available for early Kareem years so we can't say for sure, but Ben's advanced stats for peak are quite good.

Ewing was on 2 of the best defensive teams of all time ('93 and '94 Knicks). Very consistent defender and played within himself (reminds me a bit of Duncan in that way). Was known as an elite 2-way player through pretty much his entire career but his era was stacked with centers so not as many awards, unfortunately. I think this is why he tends to get overlooked sometimes. I'm pretty high on him though.

I voted Kareem last time, but it was tough, and I'm not any more certain this time. I'll admit I'm a bit lower on Wallace than most. And I'm higher on Ewing than some (maybe not here) but I'm also pretty high on Kareem. Though it looks like Ben is going to win, and that certainly isn't unreasonable. I guess I'll stick with Kareem for the heck of it.

penbeast0 wrote:I remember Bol in Washington when Jeff Ruland went down with an injury and Bol took his minutes and the team didn't miss a beat (well, they lost a lot of offense and gained it back on the defensive end). He was the greatest shotblocker in history. Of course, I also remember that he couldn't guard anyone man to man; guys like Felton Spencer looked like the second coming of Shaq in the post unless he blocked the shot and Greg Ostertag could put the ball on the ground and go around him. So, I'm just not willing to rate him that highly unless the statistical evidence is clear and compelling.

God bless the great Manute Bol! It’s kinda funny to me that my Wizards had the two tallest NBA players of all time, as well as the shortest NBA player of all time. Good to see him at least getting some mention on here. The man put all of the money he made in the NBA back into his home country of, I believe, Sudan. A truly good man.

As I mentioned in last thread, was re-watching G5 of the 1994 Knicks/Pacers series, and Ewing looks fantastic to me. I'll scout just a few plays in the early going to illustrate what I mean....



1:15 - Notice how alert Ewing is, rotating to stop the rolling Dale Davis practically before the pass is even in the air. Cuts him off (Davis passes to McKey), and then recovers quick enough to block the lay-up attempt by McKey. Ball takes a lucky couple of bounces for Indiana (off a shoulder, then a hand) until it flicks behind Ewing's head and right into McKey's hands again for the put-back. Lucky bounce for the Pacers, but that was a tremendous defensive possession for Ewing.

8:57 - When Smits tries to come across the paint (whether it's to post-up or set the screen for Miller---not sure if Ewing could tell right at first), look how physical Ewing is, basically just not allowing him to get where he wants while precious second bleed of the shotclock. Then look at him shade the drive by Fleming and then [I think] get a piece of that shot attempt (changed it, at the very least), and then changes the 2nd attempt, too; ball ultimately goes out-of-bounds to NY. This is another just tremendous defensive possession for him.

19:14 - Fights thru the screen pretty well to get right up in Smits' grill once he receives the ball in the post; Smits kicks it back out. Ewing continues to be very physical down there, nudging him off his spot. Then when Workman attempts to drive off the screen (which is called for a foul, ending the play), notice how effectively Ewing had hedged off any penetration.

23:30 - Watch how he shades the attempted penetration by Haywoode Workman at first; Workman didn't really beat his man enough to have an angle, but even if he had, Ewing would have been there. When the ball is then kicked to Miller curling around a screen at the top of the key, Ewing quickly hedges to cover that until he's satisfied Starks has recovered him; then gets a nice box-out on Dale Davis.


These are just a few examples, but really he's doing stuff like this all game. Just extremely active and very aware of what's transpiring (not just with his man, but with everyone).

He's extremely competitive among those left in the DVOR I'd previously presented (as well as box-based defensive metrics). The only thing he's lacking relative to some of the others are accolades and DPOY shares. But with the former, one has to bear in mind that his prime almost exactly overlapped with that of Hakeem Olajuwon, as well as several years of prime David Robinson AND prime Dikembe Mutombo, plus a few years of prime Alonzo Mourning. Given only two centers will get All-D honors in any given year, it's frankly remarkable that he managed three All-D 2nd selections.

As to DPOY shares, there are those same characters he's in competition with, as well as overlapping primes of perimeter(ish) players like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, etc. And as I noted previously, sometimes the voters just get it wrong. Case in point: the '93 and '94 Knicks......two of the most dominant team defenses in the history of the NBA, and yet the total DPOY shares going to ANY Knick player in both years COMBINED is just 0.050.

Vote: Patrick Ewing.

Where would you people rate Wes Unseld?

Vote Ben Wallace
I could have gone Ewing.
I do prefer high peaks.
Hopefully I am not being influenced by the hair.

Unseld is in the 10-20 range. He's one of the best defensive centers of the 70's though the 70's were a pretty weak era overall.