RealGM

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Horace Grant


Centers:

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Nate Thurmond
7. Ben Wallace
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES
Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard
Bill Walton
Rudy Gobert
George Mikan
Artis Gilmore
Willis Reed
Wes Unseld
Jack Sikma
Andrew Bogut
Tree Rollins
Theo Ratliff
Mark Eaton
Manute Bol
Shawn Bradley
Marc Gasol
Tyson Chandler
Marcus Camby
Joakim Noah
DeAndre Jordan
Roy Hibbert
Dave Cowens
Robert Parish
Vlade Divac
George Johnson
Caldwell Jones
Clifford Ray
Bill Laimbeer
Yao Ming
Nene Hilario
Al Horford
[/b]



Hi guys
[/quote]

Now I consider Eaton, Mourning, Dwight and Artis. Gobert and Cowens are also interesting, but it's unlikely that I'll vote one of them.

I think it this point it is between Alonzo and Dwight for me, though I'm interested in reading other cases. They both have very high peaks and lead exceptionally good defensive teams. Both career lengths are a bit below average but not enough to push them into a lower tier. Eye test, they are both athletic bruising guys who are good man defenders and on switches. Dwight has better size and athleticism but Mourning is tougher and more intense and IMO the better rim protector, though in his peak he played alongside PJ Brown which allowed him to be more aggressive. Howard is the better rebounder, though that's no big shock as he's a bit taller and quite a bit higher vert. Yet he didn't always utilize his vert in terms of timing and positioning on rim protection. My gut says Zo has better timing and positioning.

Wow, it's close. Dwight maybe has more physical tools but Mourning was just more intense and I feel like defense is more about consistent impact than stats. I really wanna vote Zo but Dwight has a great case as well. I'm gonna wait to officially vote.

EDIT: I'm tentatively voting Mourning.

70sFan wrote:Now I consider Eaton, Mourning, Dwight and Artis. Gobert and Cowens are also interesting, but it's unlikely that I'll vote one of them.

This is exactly how I'm feeling. I can say to virtual certainty that I'm going to vote for one of Zo, Howard, Eaton, and just today thought of Artis and knew he at least needed a close look. I'm going to try to do some research on them (especially Eaton and Gilmore) tonight so I can come to a decision before the deadline.

Gobert is my favorite current player in the league, and if we were doing nothing other than rate best 4-5 year stretches, one could reasonably vote for him. But as longevity has been a factor in my decision making to this point, it would be a complete bias-driven departure from my usual methodology to vote for Rudy here. Within a few years I've no doubt he'll have himself legitimately in the conversation; but he just hasn't quite gotten there yet.

Cowens is, as you say, "interesting", but I can't see voting for him above any of Dwight/Zo/Artis/Mark (among others, perhaps).
*He wasn't much of a rim protector
**the single-best team defense he ever anchored (or helped anchor) was a -5.8 rDRTG, and that was with a supporting cast of Paul Silas, John Havlicek, Don Chaney, and Jo Jo White.....I mean, that's a FANTASTIC defensive supporting cast. So within the context of this project [for Cowens], it's a touch of a head-scratcher that they never managed better (and perhaps more concerning is that that -5.8 was a total outlier during his tenure there: the next best was a -3.0 rDRTG).
***His longevity is lacking in comparison to Gilmore, at least (though not vs the other guys I'm considering).

fwiw, Bill Walton is another guy whom I think had a fantastic defensive peak. He really pops off the screen defensively [to me]. But that effective peak/prime was so short......

Walton.

trex_8063 wrote:fwiw, Bill Walton is another guy whom I think had a fantastic defensive peak. He really pops off the screen defensively [to me]. But that effective peak/prime was so short......

To each his own, but for me, Walton doesn't have enough playing time due to his health issues to be Top 10. You'd have to do separate Peak and Career lists like Bill James did in baseball so you could have him on the former. But for the latter, absolutely not. He simply wasn't healthy long enough.

ThaRegul8r wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:fwiw, Bill Walton is another guy whom I think had a fantastic defensive peak. He really pops off the screen defensively [to me]. But that effective peak/prime was so short......

To each his own, but for me, Walton doesn't have enough playing time due to his health issues to be Top 10. You'd have to do separate Peak and Career lists like Bill James did in baseball so you could have him on the former. But for the latter, he simply wasn't healthy long enough.

I guess my "don't know" emoji was misleading (or at least too ambiguous), because I totally agree. I meant the shrugging "don't know" emoji to communicate a "sorry, Walton" sentiment. He may well make my top 10 for peaks, but here (where career whole is considered), I agree he's not particularly close.

Some of the top candidates weaknesses - these are all phenomenal players defensively, so it’s a matter of whose warts bother me least.

Mourning: pretty weak rebounder for this group never breaking top 10 dreb, foul prone.

Gilmore: lost his effectiveness rather quickly postmerger

Eaton: could be game planned for - either through pace or style

Howard: probably weakest rim protector of this group - driven by a smaller frame - but more mobile than Eaton and Gilmore by a long shot

I hate watching Howard, but I should let bias influence me.

Dwight Howard

Howard is greater athletic force but Mourning is more intelligent, disciplined and intense player. Longevity favors Mourning, early Mourning was older and better defender than teenage/early 20s Howard, and Mourning contributed more as a backup for Heat than Howard has defensively after leaving Orlando in my opinion. Vote Mourning

My guess is Howard might win this.

I was looking at the team performances of Howard and Mourning. Not only does Howard have a longer, healthier prime, his team performances in Orlando are as or more impressive than Mourning's in Miami, especially when you consider the defensive team Howard had around him v. the defensive team (and coach Pat Riley) that Mourning had around him. DHO has come across as a spoiled, whiny player at the end of his Orlando tenure and at times since but in his prime he was more of a stud than Zo.

I didnt like Eaton's defensive game as much, too slow footed and limited, but his team results in Utah are ridiculously good . . . albeit playing with outstanding defenders in Malone, Stockton, Russell, etc. around him. And, his prime is as long as Dwight's though his yearly minutes aren't as good. I came in thinking it was Dwight or Zo, but Eaton is clearly more impactful than Mourning from the limited data I looked at, at least in the era he played in which is all you can ask.

Gilmore looks great through 77, then sort of falls off the board in 78 and just isn't impressive after that, earning the nickname "Rigor Artis." Loved him in the ABA but not competitive with Dwight or Eaton.

Quick shoutout to George Mikan whose teams also led the league in Drtg every year through 54, when they slipped to second. Weak league, good defenders around him (Mikkelson and Martin were arguably best defenders in the league at their positions too), and a lack of falloff when Mikan retired and was replaced by Clyde Lovellette (stayed 2nd in league) make him hard to support at this level though.

So, it's Dwight or Eaton and despite coming in ready to support Howard, I think I have to vote Mark Eaton unless someone talks me down. Dwight's impact post-Orlando is just too weak and Eaton's too consistent.

Eaton for his era had amazing impact but probably be exposed if he played now like a rich man's Hibbert. So should he get punished for only being this level in an era with less mobility and spacing? I think Mourning and Howard's defensive games are more complete

Of the players mentioned, I believe Howard to have the best all-around game on the defensive end. I looked at a few older players, but Cowens and Gilmore have issues--Cowens with relative impact, and Gilmore went from 5x all-defense in the ABA to, as one person put it, falling off a cliff after the merger. Walton's prime is simply too short. Ratliff stands out as a shot blocker and help defender but was far too weak of a rebounder for my taste.

Eaton is interesting. A fine motivational speaker, he recalls his meeting Wilt Chamberlain (the interview is on Youtube). Eaton was good at what he did because he played within the limits of his athletic ability, and as he relates, Wilt's little talk convinced him to focus on what he could do well. Today his lack of speed would expose him at times IMO, but he was effective in his era.

I like Dwight's all-around game a bit better than Eaton's more focused but overall more limited impact. I vote for Dwight Howard, but it's close. I won't flinch if Eaton takes this spot.

EDIT: Please note that I have changed my vote to Mark Eaton.

I think it's Howard's time to get in. I really dig the superior mobility -> era-versatility compared to Eaton or Gilmore, and he has a notable longevity edge against Mourning at this point. I can check the numbers but I don't think it's neccesary. Dwight Howard

I'm not even considering Walton, for obvious reasons.

I don’t vote A-Train here, but putting him in the same bracket with Eaton mobility-wise. Artis was quite mobile man (especialy for someone his size) until his 1980 injury.

I disagree with Howard longevity advantage. He came into the league more raw and the last five years he's probably had less impact than Mourning did as one of the best backup defensive centres of all time

Mourning

penbeast0 wrote:Gilmore looks great through 77, then sort of falls off the board in 78 and just isn't impressive after that, earning the nickname "Rigor Artis." Loved him in the ABA but not competitive with Dwight or Eaton.

I don't know for sure but am somewhat of the impression that that nickname came circa a decade later than seems to be implied here (possibly from Peter May in Boston?). Do you have a source for it's use in Chicago or San Antonio era?

I don't remember seeing it until Bill Simmons's book came out but have seen it here since. It is true that his ABA teams were excellent defensively and his early Chicago squad in the NBA, then something seems to have happened . . . he slowed down, they started playing him closer to the basket, something.

penbeast0 wrote:I don't remember seeing it until Bill Simmons's book came out but have seen it here since. It is true that his ABA teams were excellent defensively and his early Chicago squad in the NBA, then something seems to have happened . . . he slowed down, they started playing him closer to the basket, something.

Gilmore took criticism for not using his size to his advantage. I forget what sports writer wrote this, but there was a comment about Gilmore playing like a 6'2" guy in a 7'2" body. He is a strange player in a few ways. Around his fourth year in Chicago, he started his decline in scoring and rebounding. His last three years he suddenly couldn't shoot FT's, with his FT% going from .680 to .523. He was always in double digits for defensive rebounding in the ABA, but never hit double digits for his defensive rebounding in the NBA, despite him being in his prime years.