The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page]

Moderators: penbeast0, trex_8063, PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier

trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 11,806
And1: 7,239
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:30 am

Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney


Small Forwards:

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier
6. John Havlicek
7. Bruce Bowen
8. Shawn Marion
9. Luol Deng
10. Kawhi Leonard


Power Forwards:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Bobby Jones
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Elvin Hayes
6. Dave DeBusschere
7. Draymond Green
8. Kevin McHale
9. Rasheed Wallace
10. Horace Grant


Centers:

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Nate Thurmond
7. Ben Wallace
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10. Mark Eaton

And this is where it started
Idea


"Honorable Mentions" and other comments:
It should be noted that this project was not just about defensive peak (at least not for most participating); career defensive contributions were considered.
It's also worth acknowledging here that there were other players not listed above who had traction in the project (either getting discussed/considered, or potentially even receiving votes); so I'll make mention of some of them......

Among the PG's, Don Buse and Norm Van Lier both had significant traction [actual votes] by end (and KC Jones and Micheal Ray Richardson had both at least received mentions).
Among the SG's, Thabo Sefolosha was the guy who had a lot of traction (Chaney won the #10 spot pretty narrowly over him, in fact). Doug Christie, Jimmy Butler, and Dwyane Wade were all receiving votes as well.
Among the SF's, Andrei Kirilenko is the guy who had quite a bit of traction toward the end. Gerald Wallace was also getting a little discussion [though no votes].
In the PF's list, Horace Grant barely took the #10 spot over Jermaine O'Neal (the closest finish in the entire project, iirc). So O'Neal's likely the unofficial "#11". Larry Nance, Buck Williams, and Bo Outlaw all had some traction by that point, too (and guys like Gus Johnson and Charles Oakley had at least been mentioned or discussed).
And with the C's, both Alonzo Mourning and Dwight Howard had A LOT of traction by that point (a little bit for Bill Walton, Artis Gilmore, and Wes Unseld, too).
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
mdonnelly1989
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,738
And1: 1,311
Joined: Aug 11, 2014
       

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#2 » by mdonnelly1989 » Wed Feb 6, 2019 7:56 pm

I thought for sure Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace were going to be a LOT closer than that. But I suppose these top 10 lists don't also show how close each one is either. Rankings should eventually include ratings somehow.
User avatar
oaktownwarriors87
RealGM
Posts: 13,727
And1: 4,349
Joined: Mar 01, 2005
 

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#3 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Wed Apr 3, 2019 3:35 pm

LeBron being ahead of Leonard and Iguodala is such a joke.
cdubbz wrote:Donte DiVincenzo will outplay Poole this season.
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 31,374
And1: 19,567
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#4 » by Colbinii » Wed Apr 3, 2019 4:15 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:LeBron being ahead of Leonard and Iguodala is such a joke.

Considering it's not definded as peak or prime it's not a joke.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.

penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


Circa 2018
E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.


Circa 2022
G35 wrote:Lebron is not that far off from WB in trade value.
User avatar
oaktownwarriors87
RealGM
Posts: 13,727
And1: 4,349
Joined: Mar 01, 2005
 

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#5 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Wed Apr 3, 2019 4:51 pm

Colbinii wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:LeBron being ahead of Leonard and Iguodala is such a joke.

Considering it's not definded as peak or prime it's not a joke.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app


Are you suggesting that peak or prime LeBron is a better defender than Iguodala and/or Leonard?
cdubbz wrote:Donte DiVincenzo will outplay Poole this season.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 15,693
And1: 10,617
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#6 » by eminence » Wed Apr 3, 2019 4:55 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:LeBron being ahead of Leonard and Iguodala is such a joke.

Considering it's not definded as peak or prime it's not a joke.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app


Are you suggesting that peak or prime LeBron is a better defender than Iguodala and/or Leonard?


He's suggesting the exact opposite of that. Some would take Kawhi over LeBron for peak/prime defensively, but for career value there's zero case for Kawhi over Lebron.
I bought a boat.
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 31,374
And1: 19,567
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#7 » by Colbinii » Wed Apr 3, 2019 5:01 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:LeBron being ahead of Leonard and Iguodala is such a joke.

Considering it's not definded as peak or prime it's not a joke.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app


Are you suggesting that peak or prime LeBron is a better defender than Iguodala and/or Leonard?

I'm not suggesting anything [or maybe what eminence said].

Considering their are no parameters set in stone it is impossible to conclude the list is a joke, unless of course you are projecting your own parameters, in which case I cant help you.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.

penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


Circa 2018
E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.


Circa 2022
G35 wrote:Lebron is not that far off from WB in trade value.
User avatar
oaktownwarriors87
RealGM
Posts: 13,727
And1: 4,349
Joined: Mar 01, 2005
 

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#8 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Wed Apr 3, 2019 6:52 pm

eminence wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:Considering it's not definded as peak or prime it's not a joke.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app


Are you suggesting that peak or prime LeBron is a better defender than Iguodala and/or Leonard?


He's suggesting the exact opposite of that. Some would take Kawhi over LeBron for peak/prime defensively, but for career value there's zero case for Kawhi over Lebron.


What? LeBron has gotten considerably worse on defense as time has gone on, diminishing his "career value" on defense.

The only argument that could be made is that LeBrom was better in his younger years.
cdubbz wrote:Donte DiVincenzo will outplay Poole this season.
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 31,374
And1: 19,567
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#9 » by Colbinii » Wed Apr 3, 2019 7:14 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
eminence wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
Are you suggesting that peak or prime LeBron is a better defender than Iguodala and/or Leonard?


He's suggesting the exact opposite of that. Some would take Kawhi over LeBron for peak/prime defensively, but for career value there's zero case for Kawhi over Lebron.


What? LeBron has gotten considerably worse on defense as time has gone on, diminishing his "career value" on defense.

The only argument that could be made is that LeBrom was better in his younger years.

LeBron has an argument for being better at his peak due to his off-ball ability reaching a higher ceiling than 1 on 1 defensw.

Then the argument of LeBron being a + defender for about 15 seasons is another massive advantage he has.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.

penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


Circa 2018
E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.


Circa 2022
G35 wrote:Lebron is not that far off from WB in trade value.
Vladimir777
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,371
And1: 1,121
Joined: May 12, 2018
 

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#10 » by Vladimir777 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:40 pm

It’s crazy to me that Danny Green is on the list with just one All-Defensive Second Team selection. Is he that good at defense?
Hooplah
Rookie
Posts: 1,127
And1: 296
Joined: Jun 11, 2013
 

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#11 » by Hooplah » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:09 am

Vladimir777 wrote:It’s crazy to me that Danny Green is on the list with just one All-Defensive Second Team selection. Is he that good at defense?


No. Without parameters (or context) anyone can be anything to fans. If this list was made a decade ago you'd have Doug Christie instead.
Hooplah
Rookie
Posts: 1,127
And1: 296
Joined: Jun 11, 2013
 

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#12 » by Hooplah » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:12 am

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:LeBron being ahead of Leonard and Iguodala is such a joke.


A certain 12-time All-Defensive selection didn't even get an honorable mention at SG. What does that tell you about the voters? Thabo Sefolosha though.
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 11,806
And1: 7,239
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#13 » by trex_8063 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:15 am

Hooplah wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:LeBron being ahead of Leonard and Iguodala is such a joke.


An certain 12-time All-Defensive selection didn't even get an honorable mention at SG. What does that tell you about the voters? Thabo Sefolosha though.


It tells me that voters didn't base their picks on the number of All-D selections a guy has??

Might have something to do that certain 12-time All-Defensive team guy being a neutral to negative defensive contributor for at least 5-6 of those 12 All-D seasons. :wink:

And heck, my 9-year-old can easily count up All-D selections and create a list based on that (and the "result" likely would have pleased many). Most voters' methodologies were a little more substantive [and worthwhile] though.....like looking at actual defensive impact indicators and scouting players on non-box factors and consistency. To each his own, though. Never gonna please everyone.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
Hooplah
Rookie
Posts: 1,127
And1: 296
Joined: Jun 11, 2013
 

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#14 » by Hooplah » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:11 am

trex_8063 wrote:
Hooplah wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:LeBron being ahead of Leonard and Iguodala is such a joke.


An certain 12-time All-Defensive selection didn't even get an honorable mention at SG. What does that tell you about the voters? Thabo Sefolosha though.


It tells me that voters didn't base their picks on the number of All-D selections a guy has??

Might have something to do that certain 12-time All-Defensive team guy being a neutral to negative defensive contributor for at least 5-6 of those 12 All-D seasons. :wink:

And heck, my 9-year-old can easily count up All-D selections and create a list based on that (and the "result" likely would have pleased many). Most voters' methodologies were a little more substantive [and worthwhile] though.....like looking at actual defensive impact indicators and scouting players on non-box factors and consistency. To each his own, though. Never gonna please everyone.


You sure the LeBron voters didn't factor in his all-defensive teams? Let's not pretend like there's some intensive analysis behind LeBron's ranking. Having read through both threads, I'd cite Dr. Positivity's posts among others as to where I'm coming from on LeBron vs. Kobe.
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 11,806
And1: 7,239
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: The 10 Greatest Defensively at Each Position Project (2018) [links page] 

Post#15 » by trex_8063 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Hooplah wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
Hooplah wrote:
An certain 12-time All-Defensive selection didn't even get an honorable mention at SG. What does that tell you about the voters? Thabo Sefolosha though.


It tells me that voters didn't base their picks on the number of All-D selections a guy has??

Might have something to do that certain 12-time All-Defensive team guy being a neutral to negative defensive contributor for at least 5-6 of those 12 All-D seasons. :wink:

And heck, my 9-year-old can easily count up All-D selections and create a list based on that (and the "result" likely would have pleased many). Most voters' methodologies were a little more substantive [and worthwhile] though.....like looking at actual defensive impact indicators and scouting players on non-box factors and consistency. To each his own, though. Never gonna please everyone.


You sure the LeBron voters didn't factor in his all-defensive teams? Let's not pretend like there's some intensive analysis behind LeBron's ranking. Having read through both threads, I'd cite Dr. Positivity's posts among others as to where I'm coming from on LeBron vs. Kobe.



I don’t know…..I scanned the #3 SF thread [where Lebron was voted in], and the FIRST mention of media-awarded honors/accolades of any kind is in post #18; then I don’t see anything of that sort mentioned again until post #27, and then only mentioned by one other poster after that.

I’m sure accolades works its way into the thinking of some, but not to the point where one declares without reservation that a player with only 1-2 All-D honors cannot be better [or even close to??] a player with 10+ such honors. I guess because it boils down to whether or not said honors were actually earned. Kobe’s largely were not imo [and I’ll attempt to substantiate that opinion some below].

There’s arguably no better example in NBA history than Kobe’s numerous All-D honors to illustrate how misleading honors can be. Shawn Marion’s LACK of All-D honors is the only other potential that comes to mind.

One can ask why then was he given these honors if they weren’t strictly earned. I can’t say for certain, though I theorize a few things:
1) Kobe is an extremely high-profile and popular player. Popular players (and “stars”, in general) tend to get more attention/credit even for things like defense than lesser-known role players.
2) People tend to mentally carry forward early impressions of players long after the players have stopped matching that impression. I.e. they get credit in the present for what they used to do. A good example can be seen in that same #3 SF thread: a poster states that Kawhi was the best defensive player in the league “by far” in ‘17. But to anyone with a discerning eye who was watching that year it was quite clear that Kawhi----once shouldering the increased superstar usage on offense----was no longer giving the consistent effort defensively that had garnered him earlier praise (including DPOY awards). This trend has continued to this current season (he’s now on one of my two favorite teams, so I’ve watched a fair bit of him this year): his defensive effort has been downright lackadaisical at times. Sure, he can still be a great defender on a given possession if he’s dialed in (just as Kobe was capable when he was dialed in); but he’s NOT dialed in on a consistent basis. This ties right in to the third reason I think Kobe continued to garner honors…..
3) The people doing the voting [more on them below] can mentally fixate on those sporadic possessions where Kobe [or Kawhi, or whoever] were dialed in, but conveniently ignore or otherwise fail to notice all the other possessions where he maybe didn’t move his feet because he was too tired, or gets burned off-ball because he’s ball watching, or isn’t closing on a shooter too aggressively, or when he’s slow or absent on the help-D rotation, etc. Consequently they may be voting based on what the player is capable of doing when he feels like it, but NOT what the player is actually doing the majority of the time.
4) I also suspect that casual fans [which often this is all the media persons doing the voting are, more on this below] simply don’t recognize the more subtle and utterly non-sexy aspects of team defense. But they might recognize a good 1-on-1 on-ball isolation stop (one of the things Kobe was usually good at). So, even though that’s a relatively small piece of overall defensive performance, it’s one of the few things they actually pick up on (and thus may have had a somewhat inflated sense of Kobe’s defensive presence).

And though some people will try to sell the media personalities who do the voting as “expert basketball analysts”, basketball analysis is not really their job. Their job is to sell print; their job is entertainment. They are not in the business of delving deep into analysis and talent scouting to have that kind of discussion with the true students of the game [like team execs or….us, perhaps]. There are too few of us for the large media platforms to give a hoot about. Their job is to construct entertaining or engaging narratives that appeal to the masses of impressionable casual fans, and thus make money.
They are, usually, little more than casual fans themselves; they just happen to have a platform to reach a lot of people. And as a “reward” of sorts, they’re allowed in their small way to write NBA history. But simply because these people say Player A was better than Player B does NOT make it so.

And in the modern era at least, we have A LOT of tools at our disposal for evaluating defense and defensive impact, as well as the ability to find and watch nearly any game we’d care to see.

For older players, where means of evaluating impact [including video for scouting purpose] are more scarce, All-D honors perhaps can carry more weight (any port in a storm). But in the modern era we have any number of better means of evaluating defensive impact.

I mean for example, Kobe was awarded All-Defensive 1st Team in ‘06. That should [to anyone who was watching the NBA consistently that year] elicit an “ayfkm?!?” type of reaction. Kobe was a -1.2 DRAPM; the Lakers’ DRtg was 6.4 LOWER [that is: better] with him off the court, despite the fact that Kobe had a fantastically awesome turnover economy that year (which theoretically could “falsely” lower the team’s DRtg when he’s on court by limiting transition opportunities for the opponent). And again, to anyone watching it wasn’t difficult to see why: his effort and attention on defense was sorely lacking much of the time that year.


To better illustrate Kobe’s legitimacy [or lack thereof] as an all-time elite defensive guard, I’ll share the DVOR (Defensive Value Over Replacement) data I was harvesting at the time of this project. I utilized DRAPM where possible (see notation below) and worked with the assumption that, in a vacuum (or with all things being equal), a player would be replaced by a “replacement-level” player when he sat.

I thought -1.5 RAPM is fair overall representation of a replacement-level player, and assumed that roughly half of that is coming on the defensive end (i.e. -0.75 DRAPM assumed for replacement level). So for each year of a player's career, I took the difference from replacement-level and multiplied by the minutes played (shutupandjam’s Estimated Impact [EI] defensive split used as proxy for ‘93 and earlier, combination of EI and rs APM used to estimate DRAPM split for ‘94-’96).
Below are the results.....

CAREER (Cumulative) Defensive Value Above Replacement (DVOR)
Thabo Sefolosha - 47,383.8
Danny Green - 36,011.6
Stacey Augmon - 35,545.3
Doug Christie - 31,770.4
Jimmy Butler - 30,445.8
Dwyane Wade - 28,323.8
Joe Dumars - 22,583.0
*Don Chaney (*'76 not included)- 21,792.2
Andre Roberson - 19,433.8
Kobe Bryant - 13,224.5

^^^^Note this is cumulative; so Kobe’s immensely long career should be to his advantage vs much of the rest of the field (as long as his DRAPM is -0.74 or higher). And yet he still came out lowest of this group [by a somewhat large margin]. Broken down into average DVOR per season for their respective careers…..

AVERAGE Defensive Value Above Replacement (per season)
Jimmy Butler - 4,349.4
Danny Green - 4,001.3
Thabo Sefolosha - 3,948.6
Andre Roberson - 3,886.8
Doug Christie - 2,647.5
Stacey Augmon - 2,369.7
Don Chaney - 1,981.1
Dwyane Wade - 1,888.3
Joe Dumars - 1,613.1
Kobe Bryant - 661.2

^^^^^Here he rates out downright abysmal. But in such a long career, maybe it’s a mere few or a handful of poor defensive seasons that are dragging this down. So let’s isolate on the BEST defensive years…...

AVERAGE DVOR per season in Best 5 seasons
Danny Green - 6,303.7
Doug Christie - 6,217.4
Thabo Sefolosha - 6,177.2
Jimmy Butler - 5,722.0
Dwyane Wade - 4,664.2
Jaren Jackson, Sr - 4,426.7
Kobe Bryant - 4,137.7
Stacey Augmon - 4,028.5
Andre Roberson - 3,886.8
Don Chaney - 3,442.2
Joe Dumars - 3,063.5

^^^^Bear in mind that multiplying by minutes played is a component of any DVOR sample; so again Kobe’s minutes (often near 40 mpg in his best seasons) should be to his advantage vs some of these guys whose minutes are relatively limited due to their lacking offensive acumen. Kobe still rates out somewhat mediocre among this group, even if isolating on his best five seasons. We can also look at peak…..

Best Single Year Defensive Value Above Replacement
Thabo Sefolosha ('13) - 11,479.35
Doug Christie ('03) - 11,246.5
Danny Green ('16) - 7,918.1
Stacey Augmon ('94) - 7,085.6
Jimmy Butler ('18) - 6,643.5
Dwyane Wade ('06) - 6,507.0
Kobe Bryant ('10) - 5,811.75
Andre Roberson ('17) - 5,702.4
Don Chaney ('73) - 4,354.0
Joe Dumars ('91) - 3,807.5

^^^Again, he’s not super-competitive among this group, much nearer to the bottom than the top, and basically only half the defensive value (by this measure) as top seasons of Thabo or Christie.
I didn’t have Eddie Jones’ DVOR data harvested, but he’d rank very well in this group too (for reference, I did cite some DRAPM data for him in the #6 SG thread).

We can look to more box-based [or at least partially box-based] defensive metrics (which I find of limited value, especially for perimeter players), but it doesn’t particularly help Kobe’s candidacy. I mean, he DOES rank very strongly in cumulative DWS because of his long mostly durable (and high-minute) career; even bad defenders typically accrue at least a small amount of DWS.

But then Kobe is a -0.5 rDRTG for his career. For comparison, Thabo was a -4.0 rDRTG, Danny Green a -4.8 rDRTG, Doug Christie a -1.4 rDRTG, Eddie Jones a -2.3 rDRTG, Dwyane Wade a -2.6 rDRTG (and Lebron, for that matter [though obv not a SG], a -3.6 rDRTG). So Kobe would be at the bottom in this category.

Kobe’s a career -0.6 DBPM…..Thabo was a +2.2, Green +2.1, Christie +1.1, Wade +1.0, Jones +1.0. So again Kobe is last [by handy margin].

Kobe’s PIPM (Player Impact Plus/Minus) defensive split for his career is -0.66. Green’s is +2.01, Thabo +1.57, Jones +1.23, Iguodala’s +1.05, Christie’s +0.54, DWade’s was +0.40. So again, Kobe a somewhat distant last place.


Outside of DWS (which again, even poor defenders accumulate), the ONLY thing Kobe in which Kobe would rank highly is accolades. But many of us are simply of the belief that he didn’t really earn most of those, so they’re sort of whatever.

You mentioned Lebron and a potential link to his All-D honors and such; but I’ll refer you to post #2 in the #9 SF thread, where I provided a whole bunch of DVOR splits, as well as DRAPM, DWS, DBPM, and honors/accolades data.

I tend to think Lebron went a little high at #3; but even removing all consideration of honors, it’s plain to see he still looks like a strong top 5-6 candidate. Kobe, otoh, doesn’t look remotely like a top-10 candidate among the SG’s, despite that huge tally of dubious All-D honors.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd

Return to Player Comparisons