Is Kyrie Irving the best offensive player ever without an MVP?

[No-more-rings]

What? Lol.

Wade, Jerry West and Cp3 are clearly better offensively.

Wade and West have FMVPs.

I think Kyrie's offense is better than Paul's.

It is very clearly not.

[Gooner]

What? Lol.

Wade, Jerry West and Cp3 are clearly better offensively.

Wade and West have FMVPs.

I think Kyrie's offense is better than Paul's.

It is very clearly not.

Kyrie is a better scorer than Paul, that's more important than passing.

[No-more-rings]

Wade and West have FMVPs.

I think Kyrie's offense is better than Paul's.

It is very clearly not.

Kyrie is a better scorer than Paul, that's more important than passing.

You taking Gervin over Magic as an offensive player then? Go ahead i guess.

[magicman1978]

It is very clearly not.

Kyrie is a better scorer than Paul, that's more important than passing.

You taking Gervin over Magic as an offensive player then? Go ahead i guess.

Gooner and Jim Naismith seem to only be considering individual offense and not overall team offensive impact. Which is not how you should be evaluating who is a better offensive player. Otherwise, the answer here could be Adrian Dantley.

[Gooner]

It is very clearly not.

Kyrie is a better scorer than Paul, that's more important than passing.

You taking Gervin over Magic as an offensive player then? Go ahead i guess.

I haven't watched Gervin, and i've watched only little bit of Magic, and it wasn't live, so i don't really have an opinion on that

[Gooner]

Kyrie is a better scorer than Paul, that's more important than passing.

You taking Gervin over Magic as an offensive player then? Go ahead i guess.

Gooner and Jim Naismith seem to only be considering individual offense and not overall team offensive impact. Which is not how you should be evaluating who is a better offensive player. Otherwise, the answer here could be Adrian Dantley.

I always consider team offense, and impact of individual on that. Kyrie is so good as a scorer, that he demands huge amount of attention, and that creates a ton of space for his teammates. Paul never possessed quite the same threat as a scorer.

[magicman1978]

You taking Gervin over Magic as an offensive player then? Go ahead i guess.

Gooner and Jim Naismith seem to only be considering individual offense and not overall team offensive impact. Which is not how you should be evaluating who is a better offensive player. Otherwise, the answer here could be Adrian Dantley.

I always consider team offense, and impact of individual on that. Kyrie is so good as a scorer, that he demands huge amount of attention, and that creates a ton of space for his teammates. Paul never possessed quite the same threat as a scorer.

I'm not sure what your looking at to come to that assessment. In terms of overall team ortg rating and on/off impact on team ortg - Paul is well ahead of Irving. Not counting his rookie year, the best offensive he has led in 4 seasons without LeBron is this year's Celtics at 11th in Ortg (19th, 22nd, and 18th in the other 3). In comparison, in Pauls 6 years with the Clippers - he led 2 offenses that we the best in the league and 5 that were top 5. in the last 2 years, Irving is +7.1 and +8.3 in Ortg. Paul was +14, +12.2, +4.7, +19.9, +14.2, and +11.5 with the clippers.

[kuclas]

I don't think Irving is particularly close here technically, but I do think he's capable of putting up 25/7.5/5 on 61 TS% with a high usage. He's a great player, but in my opinion still not touching 2008-2018 CP3 or 2006-2011 DWade,.

Wade has a Finals MVP.

OP said MVP. To me MVP means MVP of nba aka mvp of league.

If u wanna to move the goal posts. Kyrie was mvp of nba all star game. That counts as mvp of nba also.

[Gooner]

Gooner and Jim Naismith seem to only be considering individual offense and not overall team offensive impact. Which is not how you should be evaluating who is a better offensive player. Otherwise, the answer here could be Adrian Dantley.

I always consider team offense, and impact of individual on that. Kyrie is so good as a scorer, that he demands huge amount of attention, and that creates a ton of space for his teammates. Paul never possessed quite the same threat as a scorer.

I'm not sure what your looking at to come to that assessment. In terms of overall team ortg rating and on/off impact on team ortg - Paul is well ahead of Irving. Not counting his rookie year, the best offensive he has led in 4 seasons without LeBron is this year's Celtics at 11th in Ortg (19th, 22nd, and 18th in the other 3). In comparison, in Pauls 6 years with the Clippers - he led 2 offenses that we the best in the league and 5 that were top 5.

That's statistical rating, there is more to game than that. Those Clippers never made the conference finals with Paul, so that offensive rating doesn't matter.

[magicman1978]

I always consider team offense, and impact of individual on that. Kyrie is so good as a scorer, that he demands huge amount of attention, and that creates a ton of space for his teammates. Paul never possessed quite the same threat as a scorer.

I'm not sure what your looking at to come to that assessment. In terms of overall team ortg rating and on/off impact on team ortg - Paul is well ahead of Irving. Not counting his rookie year, the best offensive he has led in 4 seasons without LeBron is this year's Celtics at 11th in Ortg (19th, 22nd, and 18th in the other 3). In comparison, in Pauls 6 years with the Clippers - he led 2 offenses that we the best in the league and 5 that were top 5.

That's statistical rating, there is more to game than that. Those Clippers never made the conference finals with Paul, so that offensive rating doesn't matter.

What has Irving done without LeBron?

[frica]

Chris Paul

How is he better than Kyrie?

Paul is the better passer, but Kyrie is the better scorer.

Paul is a much better passer while the difference in scoring isn't quite as big.
And Paul's superior defence is complementary to his offence as he forces turnovers or gets a steal which often leads to a guaranteed bucket.

[Jim Naismith]

I don't think Irving is particularly close here technically, but I do think he's capable of putting up 25/7.5/5 on 61 TS% with a high usage. He's a great player, but in my opinion still not touching 2008-2018 CP3 or 2006-2011 DWade,.

Wade has a Finals MVP.

OP said MVP. To me MVP means MVP of nba aka mvp of league.

If u wanna to move the goal posts. Kyrie was mvp of nba all star game. That counts as mvp of nba also.

I am the OP. I defined exactly what MVP meant in the first post:

Is Kyrie Irving the best offensive player ever without an MVP?

MVP can be either regular-season MVP or Finals MVP.

[Gooner]

I'm not sure what your looking at to come to that assessment. In terms of overall team ortg rating and on/off impact on team ortg - Paul is well ahead of Irving. Not counting his rookie year, the best offensive he has led in 4 seasons without LeBron is this year's Celtics at 11th in Ortg (19th, 22nd, and 18th in the other 3). In comparison, in Pauls 6 years with the Clippers - he led 2 offenses that we the best in the league and 5 that were top 5.

That's statistical rating, there is more to game than that. Those Clippers never made the conference finals with Paul, so that offensive rating doesn't matter.

What has Irving done without LeBron?

What he did with LeBron shouldn't be disregarded. If we look at him before LeBron came to Cleveland, he was young, and on a bad team. His career with the Celtics has just started, and there is potential there, we'll see how far he goes with them.

[magicman1978]

That's statistical rating, there is more to game than that. Those Clippers never made the conference finals with Paul, so that offensive rating doesn't matter.

What has Irving done without LeBron?

What he did with LeBron shouldn't be disregarded. If we look at him before LeBron came to Cleveland, he was young, and on a bad team. His career with the Celtics has just started, and there is potential there, we'll see how far he goes with them.

But you're crediting him for doing something that Paul never did when the only reason he's done it is because of LeBron. And the Celtics even made it to the conference finals last year without him, so how much credit should he get it they make it with him?

[Gooner]

What has Irving done without LeBron?

What he did with LeBron shouldn't be disregarded. If we look at him before LeBron came to Cleveland, he was young, and on a bad team. His career with the Celtics has just started, and there is potential there, we'll see how far he goes with them.

But you're crediting him for doing something that Paul never did when the only reason he's done it is because of LeBron.

No, that's not the only reason, Kyrie had a lot to do with it aswell. LeBron is 3-6 in the finals, playing with him doesn't guarantee titles.

[magicman1978]

What he did with LeBron shouldn't be disregarded. If we look at him before LeBron came to Cleveland, he was young, and on a bad team. His career with the Celtics has just started, and there is potential there, we'll see how far he goes with them.

But you're crediting him for doing something that Paul never did when the only reason he's done it is because of LeBron.

No, that's not the only reason, Kyrie had a lot to do with it aswell. LeBron is 3-6 in the finals, playing with him doesn't guarantee titles.

Yeah, he had a so much to do with it that LeBron did it again without him last year (and the 4 years prior to him) and the Celtics did it last year without him too.

[Dr Positivity]

Just no. Paul, West, Wade, etc.

[Gooner]

But you're crediting him for doing something that Paul never did when the only reason he's done it is because of LeBron.

No, that's not the only reason, Kyrie had a lot to do with it aswell. LeBron is 3-6 in the finals, playing with him doesn't guarantee titles.

Yeah, he had a so much to do with it that LeBron did it again without him last year and the Celtics did it last year without him too.

I'm talking about winning the title, not getting to the finals in a very weak east, only to get swept in the finals. Kyrie had a huge input in winning that title, anyone denying that is just trolling.

[magicman1978]

No, that's not the only reason, Kyrie had a lot to do with it aswell. LeBron is 3-6 in the finals, playing with him doesn't guarantee titles.

Yeah, he had a so much to do with it that LeBron did it again without him last year and the Celtics did it last year without him too.

I'm talking about winning the title, not getting to the finals in a very weak east, only to get swept in the finals. Kyrie had a huge input in winning that title, anyone denying that is just trolling.

You were talking about the conference finals, don't shift the goal posts.

[Gooner]

Yeah, he had a so much to do with it that LeBron did it again without him last year and the Celtics did it last year without him too.

I'm talking about winning the title, not getting to the finals in a very weak east, only to get swept in the finals. Kyrie had a huge input in winning that title, anyone denying that is just trolling.

You were talking about the conference finals, don't shift the goal posts.

No, i was talking about Kyrie being unfairly disregarded for his accomplishments while playing with LeBron.