Is Kyrie Irving the best offensive player ever without an MVP?

[zimpy27]

Chris Paul

How is he better than Kyrie?

Paul is the better passer, but Kyrie is the better scorer.

This is how:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/obpm_career.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_career.html

[Colbinii]

Kyrie is one of the best ballhandlers ever without an MVP though, but even then he's in contention with guys like Pete Maravich, Chris Paul, Isiah Thomas and Jamal Crawford, though he has a pretty good case.

He is miles better than Maravich or Crawford as a player, though. Not very relevant.

Crawford sure. Maravich? He won a scoring title with 31.1pts 5.4ast compared to Kyrie's 23.4pts 6.8ast for peaks. His career scoring average is higher than Irving's peak. And Maravich is also in the running for best college player ever. It is certainly not a clear cut case. Maravich was the original showtime and had limitless range on his shot like Curry. Irving performed well in 3 playoff runs and so did Maravich. Irving's runs were longer, but that's hardly Maravich's fault he didn't have LeBron James as a teammate.

Kyrie is one of the best ballhandlers ever without an MVP though, but even then he's in contention with guys like Pete Maravich, Chris Paul, Isiah Thomas and Jamal Crawford, though he has a pretty good case.

He is miles better than Maravich or Crawford as a player, though. Not very relevant.

Crawford sure. Maravich? He won a scoring title with 31.1pts 5.4ast compared to Kyrie's 23.4pts 6.8ast for peaks. His career scoring average is higher than Irving's peak. And Maravich is also in the running for best college player ever. It is certainly not a clear cut case. Maravich was the original showtime and had limitless range on his shot like Curry. Irving performed well in 3 playoff runs and so did Maravich. Irving's runs were longer, but that's hardly Maravich's fault he didn't have LeBron James as a teammate.

Stop over rating Maravich.

Pete per 100: 33.5 Points, 5.8 Assists, 5.4 Turnovers, sub-100 Ortg

Irving per 100: 35.1 Points, 10.2 Assists, 4.0 Turnovers, 119 Ortg



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[Colbinii]

Kyrie ain't even the most clutch

So Irving is 2nd more clutch? What is your point?

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[Cavsfansince84]

I hope there's been a mention of West by now as well as guys like Gervin and AD.

[GYK]

Paul is not one of the BOAT offensive players. This board overrates him. He hasnt been a top 10 player in years. And people act like he was up till last yr. Overrated.


As far as this thread... No. I love Ky..but no

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so is it his efficency, high level playmaking, great scoring, GOAT assist to turnover ratio..what is he missing but hardware? please explain your point.

Its as simple as other players being better, and people thinking he is better than superior players.

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great point.

[Jaivl]

He is miles better than Maravich or Crawford as a player, though. Not very relevant.

Crawford sure. Maravich? He won a scoring title with 31.1pts 5.4ast compared to Kyrie's 23.4pts 6.8ast for peaks. His career scoring average is higher than Irving's peak. And Maravich is also in the running for best college player ever. It is certainly not a clear cut case. Maravich was the original showtime and had limitless range on his shot like Curry. Irving performed well in 3 playoff runs and so did Maravich. Irving's runs were longer, but that's hardly Maravich's fault he didn't have LeBron James as a teammate.

He is miles better than Maravich or Crawford as a player, though. Not very relevant.

Crawford sure. Maravich? He won a scoring title with 31.1pts 5.4ast compared to Kyrie's 23.4pts 6.8ast for peaks. His career scoring average is higher than Irving's peak. And Maravich is also in the running for best college player ever. It is certainly not a clear cut case. Maravich was the original showtime and had limitless range on his shot like Curry. Irving performed well in 3 playoff runs and so did Maravich. Irving's runs were longer, but that's hardly Maravich's fault he didn't have LeBron James as a teammate.

Stop over rating Maravich.

Pete per 100: 33.5 Points, 5.8 Assists, 5.4 Turnovers, sub-100 Ortg

Irving per 100: 35.1 Points, 10.2 Assists, 4.0 Turnovers, 119 Ortg



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Also consistently running crap offenses, having negligible with/without impact and teams improving every time he got traded.

[Jim Naismith]

I hope there's been a mention of West by now as well as guys like Gervin and AD.

West has a FMVP.

[70sFan]

I hope there's been a mention of West by now as well as guys like Gervin and AD.

West has a FMVP.

Then you have other 2 without FMVP. How can you argue him over Iceman?

[kendogg]

Kyrie ain't even the most clutch

So Irving is 2nd more clutch? What is your point?

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I'd say 3rd at best, as Kemba Walker has the most clutch shots, and Oladipo doesn't have as many but is shooting like 80% which is ungodly. And clutch shots are not only last X minutes IMO but any sort of timely momentum swinging play. Kawhi has had a lot of those this year as well as Giannis, who's teams are both playing well and they are carrying them, harder than Kyrie is carrying the Celtics. Oladipo's team has a better record than Kyrie's as well.

[Colbinii]

Kyrie ain't even the most clutch

So Irving is 2nd more clutch? What is your point?

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I'd say 3rd at best, as Kemba Walker has the most clutch shots, and Oladipo doesn't have as many but is shooting like 80% which is ungodly. And clutch shots are not only last X minutes IMO but any sort of timely momentum swinging play. Kawhi has had a lot of those this year as well as Giannis, who's teams are both playing well and they are carrying them, harder than Kyrie is carrying the Celtics. Oladipo's team has a better record than Kyrie's as well.

Oladipo hasn't been better in the clutch. The Pacers have the 28th easiest SOS.

Take Kyrie off the celtics and they have a weaker roster than both Toronto [11-2 without Kawhi] and the Bucks without there stars.

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[GeorgeMarcus]

So Irving is 2nd more clutch? What is your point?

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I'd say 3rd at best, as Kemba Walker has the most clutch shots, and Oladipo doesn't have as many but is shooting like 80% which is ungodly. And clutch shots are not only last X minutes IMO but any sort of timely momentum swinging play. Kawhi has had a lot of those this year as well as Giannis, who's teams are both playing well and they are carrying them, harder than Kyrie is carrying the Celtics. Oladipo's team has a better record than Kyrie's as well.

Oladipo hasn't been better in the clutch. The Pacers have the 28th easiest SOS.

Take Kyrie off the celtics and they have a weaker roster than both Toronto [11-2 without Kawhi] and the Bucks without there stars.

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To your first point, how does SOS affect "clutch"?

To your 2nd point, I don't know about that. Probably worse than Toronto, but not Milwaukee. That Celtics team without Kyrie (or Hayward) was 1 game away from the Finals. Dating back to the beginning of last year, Boston is 65-35 with Kyrie (.650 winning%) and 18-10 without him (.643 winning%). Sample size is questionable but that doesn't include their impressive playoff run last year. I'm not convinced Kyrie elevates overall team performance the way his numbers would suggest.

[Colbinii]

I'd say 3rd at best, as Kemba Walker has the most clutch shots, and Oladipo doesn't have as many but is shooting like 80% which is ungodly. And clutch shots are not only last X minutes IMO but any sort of timely momentum swinging play. Kawhi has had a lot of those this year as well as Giannis, who's teams are both playing well and they are carrying them, harder than Kyrie is carrying the Celtics. Oladipo's team has a better record than Kyrie's as well.

Oladipo hasn't been better in the clutch. The Pacers have the 28th easiest SOS.

Take Kyrie off the celtics and they have a weaker roster than both Toronto [11-2 without Kawhi] and the Bucks without there stars.

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To your first point, how does SOS affect "clutch"?

To your 2nd point, I don't know about that. Probably worse than Toronto, but not Milwaukee. That Celtics team without Kyrie (or Hayward) was 1 game away from the Finals. Dating back to the beginning of last year, Boston is 65-35 with Kyrie (.650 winning%) and 18-10 without him (.643 winning%). Sample size is questionable but that doesn't include their impressive playoff run last year. I'm not convinced Kyrie elevates overall team performance the way his numbers would suggest.

I'm going to ignore your first question because it is a dumb one.

The second one is clear by the play of the team without kyrie this season, RPM, On/Off, ect.

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[Winsome Gerbil]

Wow.

He's a really good scorer, but come on.

We don't even have to go far. How about the guy down in Houston right now?

[GeorgeMarcus]

Oladipo hasn't been better in the clutch. The Pacers have the 28th easiest SOS.

Take Kyrie off the celtics and they have a weaker roster than both Toronto [11-2 without Kawhi] and the Bucks without there stars.

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To your first point, how does SOS affect "clutch"?

To your 2nd point, I don't know about that. Probably worse than Toronto, but not Milwaukee. That Celtics team without Kyrie (or Hayward) was 1 game away from the Finals. Dating back to the beginning of last year, Boston is 65-35 with Kyrie (.650 winning%) and 18-10 without him (.643 winning%). Sample size is questionable but that doesn't include their impressive playoff run last year. I'm not convinced Kyrie elevates overall team performance the way his numbers would suggest.

I'm going to ignore your first question because it is a dumb one.

The second one is clear by the play of the team without kyrie this season, RPM, On/Off, ect.

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I'm going to ignore the fact you responded to an honest question with needless hostility. "Clutch" in the chart was defined in a very specific way (last 5 min, 5 pt differential or less). These situations arise against teams of all strengths. Unwillingness to articulate your point is less flattering than inability to do so.

[Baski]

Oladipo hasn't been better in the clutch. The Pacers have the 28th easiest SOS.

Take Kyrie off the celtics and they have a weaker roster than both Toronto [11-2 without Kawhi] and the Bucks without there stars.

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To your first point, how does SOS affect "clutch"?

To your 2nd point, I don't know about that. Probably worse than Toronto, but not Milwaukee. That Celtics team without Kyrie (or Hayward) was 1 game away from the Finals. Dating back to the beginning of last year, Boston is 65-35 with Kyrie (.650 winning%) and 18-10 without him (.643 winning%). Sample size is questionable but that doesn't include their impressive playoff run last year. I'm not convinced Kyrie elevates overall team performance the way his numbers would suggest.

I'm going to ignore your first question because it is a dumb one.

The second one is clear by the play of the team without kyrie this season, RPM, On/Off, ect.

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What's dumb about the first question? I too am wondering what SOS has to do with being clutch. I've never ever ever seen it brought up in discussions about clutch play.