How Good Would Peak Manu Ginobli Be on His Own Team in Today's Era?

[Pelly24]

I was re-watching this guy's highlights, and he really was amazing. First thing that stood out was his combination of athleticism and craftiness. Speed and ability to change directions and contort with nice finishes at 6'6" was amazing, and he could dunk on you easily.

Then I noticed his passing and his shot-making. It feels like he just had it all. But we never got to see all of his abilities unleashed at once the way we would have if he had his own squad.

What does a 2007 Manu look like with his own squad in today's NBA? I'm guessing he'd be worse than Harden, but still a top 10 player. I'd say he'd get something like 24/8/5 on 60 TS% and good defense. What about you?

[Basileus777]

I don't think his numbers would be especially different. Manu wasn't limited by his team, but by the number of minutes he was able to play. I don't see him playing 35+ minutes a game anywhere.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Give him 35 minutes a game and make him the first option he would average 25\5\5 with great efficiency. Dominated pistons great defense in 2005 and was always a huge catalyst for spurs dynasty. I consider him a poor man's version of James Harden they are both left handed, both have euro steps, both do the step back but only Harden does it all a little better haha. Harden did have a lot of trouble with Manu defending him in the playoffs a few years back, probably because there games are so similar and Manu had a feel for what Harden would do next.

[Cavsfansince84]

I was re-watching this guy's highlights, and he really was amazing. First thing that stood out was his combination of athleticism and craftiness. Speed and ability to change directions and contort with nice finishes at 6'6" was amazing, and he could dunk on you easily.

Then I noticed his passing and his shot-making. It feels like he just had it all. But we never got to see all of his abilities unleashed at once the way we would have if he had his own squad.

What does a 2007 Manu look like with his own squad in today's NBA? I'm guessing he'd be worse than Harden, but still a top 10 player. I'd say he'd get something like 24/8/5 on 60 TS% and good defense. What about you?

Manu wouldn't have held up playing 34-36 minutes every night while carrying the offensive load and doing everything else he did with the Spurs. Pop knew this and that's why he limited him to 28-30mpg most of his career. Even so he still got injured a lot.

[HeartBreakKid]

I was re-watching this guy's highlights, and he really was amazing. First thing that stood out was his combination of athleticism and craftiness. Speed and ability to change directions and contort with nice finishes at 6'6" was amazing, and he could dunk on you easily.

Then I noticed his passing and his shot-making. It feels like he just had it all. But we never got to see all of his abilities unleashed at once the way we would have if he had his own squad.

What does a 2007 Manu look like with his own squad in today's NBA? I'm guessing he'd be worse than Harden, but still a top 10 player. I'd say he'd get something like 24/8/5 on 60 TS% and good defense. What about you?

Manu wouldn't have held up playing 34-36 minutes every night while carrying the offensive load and doing everything else he did with the Spurs. Pop knew this and that's why he limited him to 28-30mpg most of his career. Even so he still got injured a lot.

That wouldn't really make him different than Kyrie Irving. If Kyrie was able to not get injured while playing more minutes the durability argument would make more sense. Also, it is worth noting that Manu came into the league in his mid 20s, so he never had those spring chicken years that some other players in the NBA had when they were youngings.

[E-Balla]

Give him 35 minutes a game and make him the first option he would average 25\5\5 with great efficiency. Dominated pistons great defense in 2005 and was always a huge catalyst for spurs dynasty. I consider him a poor man's version of James Harden they are both left handed, both have euro steps, both do the step back but only Harden does it all a little better haha. Harden did have a lot of trouble with Manu defending him in the playoffs a few years back, probably because there games are so similar and Manu had a feel for what Harden would do next.

Nah in 2019 Manu would be the primary PG probably averaging closer to 8-9 assists a game.

[r0drig0lac]

Give him 35 minutes a game and make him the first option he would average 25\5\5 with great efficiency. Dominated pistons great defense in 2005 and was always a huge catalyst for spurs dynasty. I consider him a poor man's version of James Harden they are both left handed, both have euro steps, both do the step back but only Harden does it all a little better haha. Harden did have a lot of trouble with Manu defending him in the playoffs a few years back, probably because there games are so similar and Manu had a feel for what Harden would do next.

I disagree about "poor man", perhaps a less explosive, less physically endowed and mainly more system-oriented than "be a system" (although he has proved on several occasions that he could do so when necessary), in the scenario presented I see 22-24pts 5rbt 8ast 2stl with above-average efficiency, he would probably go to the ft line even more, however to do so he would have to give up the Argentina NT (which I doubt he would do)

[Ayt]

Give him 35 minutes a game and make him the first option he would average 25\5\5 with great efficiency. Dominated pistons great defense in 2005 and was always a huge catalyst for spurs dynasty. I consider him a poor man's version of James Harden they are both left handed, both have euro steps, both do the step back but only Harden does it all a little better haha. Harden did have a lot of trouble with Manu defending him in the playoffs a few years back, probably because there games are so similar and Manu had a feel for what Harden would do next.

Nah in 2019 Manu would be the primary PG probably averaging closer to 8-9 assists a game.

I'm imagining him on a Bud coached team. He'd slaughter with his ability to slash and make plays while also being a very good outside shooter himself.

[No-more-rings]

26/6/7 62 ts% but i’d be surprised if he’d stay healthy for more than a season or 2 of doing that.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Give him 35 minutes a game and make him the first option he would average 25\5\5 with great efficiency. Dominated pistons great defense in 2005 and was always a huge catalyst for spurs dynasty. I consider him a poor man's version of James Harden they are both left handed, both have euro steps, both do the step back but only Harden does it all a little better haha. Harden did have a lot of trouble with Manu defending him in the playoffs a few years back, probably because there games are so similar and Manu had a feel for what Harden would do next.

Nah in 2019 Manu would be the primary PG probably averaging closer to 8-9 assists a game.

Manu is an incredible passer and can average 10 assists a game if he really wanted to do so. I just took this question as if he was the primary scorer with a bunch of role players. I put him on averaging 25+ppg and how many guys do you see average 25+ ppg and 8+ assists at the same time? Jordan Bird LeBron Harden and that's pretty much it. Its so rare and I don't think Manu is quite a Jordan Bird LeBron Harden level talent

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Give him 35 minutes a game and make him the first option he would average 25\5\5 with great efficiency. Dominated pistons great defense in 2005 and was always a huge catalyst for spurs dynasty. I consider him a poor man's version of James Harden they are both left handed, both have euro steps, both do the step back but only Harden does it all a little better haha. Harden did have a lot of trouble with Manu defending him in the playoffs a few years back, probably because there games are so similar and Manu had a feel for what Harden would do next.

I disagree about "poor man", perhaps a less explosive, less physically endowed and mainly more system-oriented than "be a system" (although he has proved on several occasions that he could do so when necessary), in the scenario presented I see 22-24pts 5rbt 8ast 2stl with above-average efficiency, he would probably go to the ft line even more, however to do so he would have to give up the Argentina NT (which I doubt he would do)

I just don't see anything that Manu is better than harden at offensively. They have similar step backs but Hardens is more deadly, harden gets to the line at a better rate, harden has the quicker first step, better ball handler. Hardens 1 on 1 game is significantly better as Manu was a good 1 on 1 player but not as great of a 1 on 1 where you can base entire games off his 1 on 1 play one Harden does.

[Clyde Frazier]

So workload-wise ginobili topped out at 28.7% usage in 31.1 MPG in 07-08 in 74 games. The spurs ranked 28th in pace at 88.8 possessions per game (league average this year is 99.5).

So with that in mind, how much more could ginobili take on before his durability and efficiency take a hit as a primary ball handler and number 1 option? Realistically, with an average roster around him i'd say they top out as a middling playoff team, closer to top 5 in the east and closer to bottom 4 in the west.

We did see him take on a bigger role in the spurs 05 championship run, but that was over 23 games and duncan did provide a lot of support as well. Ginobili's talent and skillset was never in doubt, but his ceiling with a larger workload over a full season is uncertain.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

So workload-wise ginobili topped out at 28.7% usage in 31.1 MPG in 07-08 in 74 games. The spurs ranked 28th in pace at 88.8 possessions per game (league average this year is 99.5).

So with that in mind, how much more could ginobili take on before his durability and efficiency take a hit as a primary ball handler and number 1 option? Realistically, with an average roster around him i'd say they top out as a middling playoff team, closer to top 5 in the east and closer to bottom 4 in the west.

We did see him take on a bigger role in the spurs 05 championship run, but that was over 23 games and duncan did provide a lot of support as well. Ginobili's talent and skillset was never in doubt, but his ceiling with a larger workload over a full season is uncertain.

The efficiency argument with a heavier workload is a good point but I don't think he was ever really injury prone like people are making him out to be, he only had 2 injury prone seasons. Even 2012-13 where he only played 60 regular season games, but he still played 21 playoff games and so that was a 80 game season for him.

2010-11 he was at 30.3 minutes a game and stayed healthy 80 games while starting 79 of them.

2004-05 he played nearly 30 minutes starting 74 games and than played 33.6 minutes during 23 playoff games, that's 97 games and he was still dominating the finals that year.

[ardee]

Give him 35 minutes a game and make him the first option he would average 25\5\5 with great efficiency. Dominated pistons great defense in 2005 and was always a huge catalyst for spurs dynasty. I consider him a poor man's version of James Harden they are both left handed, both have euro steps, both do the step back but only Harden does it all a little better haha. Harden did have a lot of trouble with Manu defending him in the playoffs a few years back, probably because there games are so similar and Manu had a feel for what Harden would do next.

Nah in 2019 Manu would be the primary PG probably averaging closer to 8-9 assists a game.

Manu is an incredible passer and can average 10 assists a game if he really wanted to do so. I just took this question as if he was the primary scorer with a bunch of role players. I put him on averaging 25+ppg and how many guys do you see average 25+ ppg and 8+ assists at the same time? Jordan Bird LeBron Harden and that's pretty much it. Its so rare and I don't think Manu is quite a Jordan Bird LeBron Harden level talent

In fact Bird never even did it.

It's only been done 11 times by five players. Harden thrice including this year, Westbrook thrice, and LeBron thrice. Jordan did it once and randomly, Michael Adams once on ghastly efficiency.

Man, what an era we're in for perimeter talent. 7 of the last eleven instances have come in the last three seasons.

[Bergmaniac]

Oscar Robertson did it a bunch of times. Nate Archibald twice.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Nah in 2019 Manu would be the primary PG probably averaging closer to 8-9 assists a game.

Manu is an incredible passer and can average 10 assists a game if he really wanted to do so. I just took this question as if he was the primary scorer with a bunch of role players. I put him on averaging 25+ppg and how many guys do you see average 25+ ppg and 8+ assists at the same time? Jordan Bird LeBron Harden and that's pretty much it. Its so rare and I don't think Manu is quite a Jordan Bird LeBron Harden level talent

In fact Bird never even did it.

It's only been done 11 times by five players. Harden thrice including this year, Westbrook thrice, and LeBron thrice. Jordan did it once and randomly, Michael Adams once on ghastly efficiency.

Man, what an era we're in for perimeter talent. 7 of the last eleven instances have come in the last three seasons.

Bird did it during a championship postseason run so that's why I mentioned him.

[AdagioPace]

I think the minutes are not faithful enough, not indicative of the number of assists he would get in an average team. It must be noted that Manu's on-ball time and touches (not USG!) were also limited by Parker and in small part by TD. I'm talking about the 00s Spurs, not "the ball movement" Spurs (the latter is a completely different limiting factor)
I think he has the ability to be a dominant plays-maker but unless some coach like D'antoni tells him to do so, Manu's unselfish afflatus will always prevail.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I think the minutes are not faithful enough, not indicative of the number of assists he would get in an average team. It must be noted that Manu's on-ball time and touches (not USG!) were also limited by Parker and in small part by TD. I'm talking about the 00s Spurs, not "the ball movement" Spurs (the latter is a completely different limiting factor)
I think he has the ability to be a dominant plays-maker but unless some coach like D'antoni tells him to do so, Manu's unselfish afflatus will always prevail.

It would be similar to Harden leaving Thunder and getting away from Westbrook and Durant. I think manu's peak would probably be similar to Hardens very first season with Rockets but he wouldn't peak higher than that. Still a top 10 player no doubt.